News & Politics - Bush's Pre-9/11 Terrorist Memo - Page 8

Katis · 04-14-2004, 08:10 PM

Well obviously "Jews are dumb" is a simplification of more serious anti-semitic remarks but that is the general meaning I think. It's dislike of Jews that is anti-semitic. Not dislike of Israel. Just because you don't support Israel, or see Israel as a threat, or disagree with their policies doesn't mean you dislike Jewish people. They aren't one and the same.

sum1 · 04-14-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katis:
Well obviously "Jews are dumb" is a simplification of more serious anti-semitic remarks but that is the general meaning I think. It's dislike of Jews that is anti-semitic. Not dislike of Israel. Just because you don't support Israel, or see Israel as a threat, or disagree with their policies doesn't mean you dislike Jewish people. They aren't one and the same.

Of course, but people who are prejudiced against all Jews can be motivated by that prejudice to unfairly criticise Israel. One can criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic, but anti-Semites can also hate and criticise Israel, motivated by their hate for Jews.

It's also worth noting that people who do not intend any anti-Semitism can express and repeat views that are (unknown to them) influenced by anti-Semitism in culture and society. People who are not anti-Semites can express views that have anti-Semitic implications they are unaware of. Saying a view has anti-Semitic implications does not mean the person saying it is an anti-Semite.

The West (notably Europe) has a history of anti-Semitism going back millennia, a record of persecution and massacre. And not too many generations back, many obviously anti-Semitic attitudes were accepted as the norm in society. In effect, the majority of people were anti-Semitic, just as they were also racist and sexist. Bigotry was the norm and had been back through history.

That sort of thing doesn't just vanish in a puff of smoke. Even when no longer obviously the norm, its legacy lingers and infects culture and society, influences attitudes, etc. Bigotry has a lot of influence that people are often unaware of. We have to be alert to that sort of thing and we have to be prepared to confront it. That's the only way bigotry can be weeded out. And it must be.

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited sum1 ]

Jess519 · 04-14-2004, 09:11 PM

I've been hestitant to post on this thread since it devolved into a discussion of what is or is not anti-Semitism. Seems like the thread is just going around in circles. Any chance we can get back on the subject?

And now here's me continuing the anti-Semitism/Israel discussion, despite my previous statement. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by elisheva:
Viewing Israel's policies as not conducive to peace? Fine. Viewing Israel itself, its existence, as a threat to world peace? Not.

No one is saying that Israel's very existence is a threat to world peace. That's what you're reading into it.

Certainly no one here is saying that, and that's not how I understood the European poll and response. Seems to me the idea is more that Israel's policies, Israel's relationship with the US, and the response & interactions of other Middle Eastern countries to Israel are threats to world peace. That's just how I read it.

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited Jess519 ]

sum1 · 04-14-2004, 09:43 PM

*Juli* · 04-14-2004, 09:51 PM

So, is this where we're supposed to be discussing the Bush memo? [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

Katis · 04-14-2004, 10:04 PM

Yes it is. So how about we get back onto that topic?

Maggie aka Sarah · 04-14-2004, 11:41 PM

How do get back on the topic of the memo regarding security?

Very simple from my point of view. Just think of the "never again" whatever that is tied into the discussion of anti-semitism and apply it to all people and all races and all religions and attempt to think of the consequences if Bush had acted on the memo in a manner that involved racial and religious profiling of Muslim Arabs. Doing that in my opinion would have impinged on the human rights of the majority of Muslim Arabs who basically just want to live their lives in a peacable manner and would have given fodder to those who wish to incite hatred towards the USA.

Yep... there are a lot of people in this world... myself included... who have been educated along the lines that in order to avoid future genocides of ANY group of people and ANY race and ANY religion, that language that implies one group as a whole is in some way less deserving of human rights because of their race, or religion, or any other grouping, should be forcibly countered whenever it is encountered.

And.... ummmm... part of the education that I received... stressed that certain phases and certain myths are symbolic of anti-semitism. So I can understand totally why some of the posters on this thread are making their strongly held viewpoints known.

I can also understand totally why other posters are stating that they do not intend their words to be anti-semitic.

Actually... in my opinion.... listening to both sides as well as the view points in the middle... is the best way for people of all viewpoints to understand each other.... and hopefully realise that BOTH sides have valid points. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Oh and when I think of it... many the best way to increase security in the USA and around the world is for each of every person in the world... to spend some time trying to understand the points of views of other cultures.

I read an article right after 9/11 that commented that a number of the hijackers had lived in Europe for various periods of time... and that possibly the manner in which Muslim immigrants are often marginalized vis-�-vis day to day life in Europe may have added to their resentment of the west.

Maybe perhaps possibly if the hijackers would have received more acceptance they wouldn't have been so open to kill themselves in the name of what they viewed as their religion while at the same time they were murdering a couple of thousand civilians.

Note that I am not saying that the FBI and the CIA.... and.... CSIS in Canada... who definitely droped the proverbial ball on the millenium bomber guy.... shouldn't do their jobs and investigate people for whom valid reasons exist to be investigated. Just saying that maybe perhaps if bit by bit there was less anger in this world about all sorts of stuff... then disenfranchised people... of ANY culture and racial group and religion... would be less likely to be attracted to violent type actions.

Oh and for the last few years I have been thinking of stuff that a friend of mine said to me during the 80s. She was studying Middle Eastern Studies at the time... and is a Muslim woman from the Gulf region. She often said when people asked her why she was friends with a number of Israelis... that the Israelis weren't her enemies... but fanatical Muslim fundalmentalists were.

And she also had an interesting take on the whatever about the Arab world not liking Israel... went like.... Muslim guy goes home and his wife and his daughters and his sisters all tell him.... Israeli women wear pants... why can't we wear pants? Israeli women don't wear veils... why can't we go about without a veil? Israeli women drive cars... why can't we drive? Israeli women vote... why can't we vote? etc., etc., etc., etc.... and then the Muslim guys starts getting annoyed at Israel.

My friend always told this whatever is a very hilarious manner... but then would segue to being serious and say stuff about how the example of Israel as a country with western values was very disconcerting for a lot of Muslims. She also said stuff about the harder that people within and from outside of the Muslim world pushed for change.... the harder that those who held power because of religion and tribal type whatevers would fight to hold onto their power.

Yep... I am thinking a lot these days what a friend of mine told me over countless dinners and going for coffee, etc., and thinking that ... yep... the world is changing fast for us in North America and Europe... but it's changing even faster for those in places like the middle east. And maybe perhaps our world would be a safer place if we in the western world helped other cultures to adapt to the modern world... while at the same time holding on to their culture and values... the world would be a safer place.

There are people in this world who want chaos and anarchy and to use force and violence and terror in order for themselves to gain power... sigh... but in my opinion... those whatevers can be blunted and held at bay by several methods.... obvious increasing security type whatevers and tracking down terrorists, etc... but at the same time I feel that educating ALL the myriad of cultures in our world about each other and making attempts to listen to the points of views of other cultures... and attempting to avoid racism of ANY form... will also help to make this world a safer place.

Rant over for tonight. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Maggie

[ 04-15-2004: Message edited Maggie aka Sarah ]

AlexEvans · 04-15-2004, 07:59 AM

Excellent post Maggie, about the cultural "threat" Israel poses.

However, as far as accepting the terrorists... they were accepted.

They treated women misogynistically. There was no objection.

They wanted amenities like private prayer rooms. No problem.

I strongly recommend Jane Corbin's The Base which has some very interesting information, including about their lives at a German university.

indium · 04-15-2004, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maggie aka Sarah:

Oh and when I think of it... many the best way to increase security in the USA and around the world is for each of every person in the world... to spend some time trying to understand the points of views of other cultures.

here here. as parliment would say.

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 09:04 AM

Elisheva you posted this :

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So is comparing Israel to Iraq under Hussein, which StellaSlight seems to be doing--??

I didn't. But the same logic can be comparable. People who believed that Saddam was a threat to peace associated Iraq in it. And as for people who believe that Sharon is a threat to peace, they sure associate Israel to it. But as a nation lead by a governement. Not a people.
I was using Iraq and Saddam as an exemple to illustrate the fact that you can fear a leader for the threat he represents to peace and not hate the people. I'm sure none of you guys who defended Bush's theory of 'axis of evil' (Iraq, North Korea, Iran) weren't actually believing that it was the people from those countries who were evil, right? Well, to the same extent, the rest of us who criticize Sharon do not hate Jews or believe they're a threat to peace. As simple as that.

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Sharon abides by the democratic rules of the country and is subject to investigation and legal action. Hitler did not. Again, comparing the two is senseless.

Hitler was submitted to the same system. The chancellery's job was supposed to check and balance Hitler's power, investigating him and take actions. But it's hard when a huge majority of a country is actually behind their leader. It usually tends to fall into a despotic regime, supressing the checks and balances.
But discussing the whole point is totally ridiculous because I wasn't 'comparing' Hitler and Sharon for what is worth. I was plain stating that being democratically elected doesn't mean you're incapable of doing anything wrong because there's the democratical system. I can give you other exemples other than Hitler.

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It's not just the last 40 years that Israel has been attacked/hated by Arab countries. Immediately after the state of Israel was created in 1948, surrounding Arab countries jumped on it and attacked (war of Independence.) And even before Israel's creation as an independent state, there were many attacks against Jews. So, no, it's not just the last 40 years, and no, it's not just because of "Israel's controversial policies". It's Israel's right to exist that bothers these countries.

I'm not talking about the 'controversial policies' since the past 40 years. I was directly mentioning the fact that Palestine think that Jews stole their territories, and then fought against them, and that 99% of the Muslim world thought the same.
Well, I'm sure those countries wouldn't have bothered that much if it had been decreeted that Israel should be situated right in Asia.

Sorry for being off topic again, but there are things that needed to be cleared out.

JohannafromIHJ · 04-15-2004, 09:20 AM

I don�t think Bush knew about the attacks. I think he underestimated the strength and shrewdness of the US�s (and the West�s) enemies, but that was hardly a one-man thing, but rather something the whole country contributed to.

Quote:

Originally posted by elisheva:
Viewing Israel's policies as not conducive to peace? Fine. Viewing Israel itself, its existence, as a threat to world peace? Not.

But it's not anti-Semitic. Anti-Israel, more like. One simply can't conclude that Europeans are anti-Semitic based on a poll showing that many Europeans are wary of Israel.

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And I'm sure you're aware that a lot more was done to Jews in WW2 than just "excluding, persecuting and scapegoating". For example, rounding up into concentration camps and systematically annihilating six million, including one million children. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is ridiculous and insulting.

What Israel, along with the US, is doing to Palestinians is dangerously close to what was done to Jews before WW2 and a bit into it - portraying a lot of them as people who are malicious and do not have a right to the land they've lived on for a long, long time. Whether this will lead to concentration camps for those who oppose Israel or not, is anyone's guess. I hope not.

But homes have already been destroyed, children have been killed and leaders assassinated. I don't think what happened during WW2 should be an excuse for some Jews to abuse other people and still be viewed as purely good guys. And I don't think it's fair for those who object to be labelled as evil anti-Semites. It is possible to sympathise with both the people of Israel and the people of Palestine at the same time.

Any group of people, no matter how persecuted or victimised they've been in the past, can do bad things. Turning a blind eye won't help them, or their victims. That's not to say that Palestinians haven't done a lot of bad things as well, of course.

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The West (notably Europe) has a history of anti-Semitism going back millennia, a record of persecution and massacre. And not too many generations back, many obviously anti-Semitic attitudes were accepted as the norm in society. In effect, the majority of people were anti-Semitic, just as they were also racist and sexist. Bigotry was the norm and had been back through history.

The West has persecuted pretty much everyone though. Before using black people as slaves, they used white war-prisoners. Before attacking Jews, it was Christians. Then it was non-Christians (including Jews). I mean, a hell of a lot of Muslims were murdered and/or violated during the Crusades. There's been slavery, serfdom, feudalism, scientists have been killed, priests have been killed, the witch-hunts, people have been burned at the stake for saying they don't quite believe in the Trinity. Jews are hardly alone in having been given a hard time by Europeans (and Americans too, I suppose).

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"Every day [Israel is] compared to the Nazi state, Palestinian refugee camps to Auschwitz."

Well, better people are over-cautious and critical than allow another crime against humanity to happen. Maybe the Palestinian refugee camps are all roses and honey and perfectly acceptable for humans to live in - but if they're not, at least we can say we didn't sit quietly and let it all happen this time. Israel is still a part of the world and needs to be monitored like every other country. I mean, people are criticising Gautanamo, but they�re not being accused of being in favour of discriminating again and persecuting Americans. Lots of people have spoken out against the orphanages in China � but I don�t see anyone there calling the West anti-Asian.

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He criticized the Canadian government for providing funding to the "Canadian NGO" branch of the pro-Palestinian Alternative Information Centre, which issued a recent report accusing Israel of "ethnic cleansing."

"This is a typical example of the new anti-Semitism," Sharansky said.

What does that make the pro-Palestine Jews, then? Those who are against Israel�s current form due to a myriad of reasons (such as no longer believing in the �mythic� Israel, or not wanting to be a part of Israel for religious/moral reasons?) Are they anti-Semites too? Are they against themselves? Do they want to be treated like second class citizens? Or do they simply wish for Israel to take a good look at itself and be honest?

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Using Nazi metaphors to criticize Israel is also anti-Semitic, he said, as is singling out Israeli in international forums for denunciation out of proportion to its deeds.

Ah, I see. Because the behaviour of Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians is not at all close to the behaviour of Nazi soldiers before and for some parts during WW2? I�d say this woman disagrees. Or is demanding sex in exchange for common human decency OK as long as you�re an Israeli?

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"We believed that after the Holocaust, there would never be anti-Semitism in the free world again� We thought the explanation for anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union was that it was a totalitarian regime. Now we don't have such an easy answer," he told the audience.

Could it be because you're over-reacting? I don't think the Holocaust is a reason to allow Jewish leaders to do whatever they want to Palestinians.

But socialists, Communists and gays were also put in concentration camps. Up to 100 000 gay people were murdered by Nazis. Now, I wonder, why aren't gay people accepted? Someone needs to call this guy and inform him of this grave injustice.

And I don't see a lot of people honouring the poor communists who died in concentration camps, or the one-million Russian army which helped defeat Germany.

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In Europe and some other Western countries, this demonization takes the form of calling Israel a Nazi state or accusing it of ethnic cleansing, even among journalists, intellectuals and human rights organizations, he said.

Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because Israel bulldozers down the homes of large families with small children, who do not have anywhere to go, since they�ve lived on that land for a hell of a long time? We�re not allowed to do that in Sweden, or Britain, or Germany or whatever � so why should it be OK for Israel to do it?

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"It is legitimate to blame Israel for the fourth generation of Palestinians being in refugee camps, but calling it Auschwitz is not," he said.

And I don't think a lot of people are calling it Auschwitz. I do think a lot of people are worried it'll turn in to one.

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Another aspect of the "new" anti-Semitism is the questioning of Israel's right to exist, he said.

Not anti-Semitism. It�s anti-Israel. Anti-Semitism is hating and discriminating against Jews, not questioning Israel's right to exist. Yet another person who flings about the word "anti-Semite" as he sees fit without respecting what it actually means.

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"In centuries past, Jews were told they were not a nation. In the last two years, more and more people say the Jewish state is not legitimate, that it is an anachronism of the colonial age, that there is no place for a narrow nationalist state."

I wonder if this person also supports giving the Native Americans back their land?

I think it's rather rich to talk about how being against the current state of Israel is anti-Semitic, when he's so obviously in favour of robbing another people of their land in turn, going against Judaism in the process as well.

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"The Holocaust was possible, not only because of the power of an army, but because so many were convinced Jews were less than human. We can't permit this to happen to the State of Israel," he said.

It was also possible because so many people believed that Aryans were more than human, above everyone else. There seems to be some Jews who, in this case, seems to feel that since they were the victims during WW2, they can do no wrong now, having been eternally branded as "the good guys". You can see the same thing in very nationalistic Americans, Brits, Swedes, Iraqis and so on. It rarely leads to anything good.

I feel like what this article did was take legitimate criticism, embellish it, and stamp it as anti-Semitic instead of actually dealing with it. I think it would even make some Israelis feel like they were being called anti-Semites. Such as these guys.

I think it's important to realise that Israel and Israel's actions do not represent every Jew, or even every Jewish tradition. Some people may feel that Israel = Jews, but I'm hoping the rest of us understand and respect that Jews are individuals too and should not be blamed or praised for every little thing Israel does.

Should we have to accept whatever Israel does, whatever form Israel takes, for fear of being called anti-Semites? Is it OK that Jews who are pro-Palestine are shunned and harassed by relatives and community members for being �traitors�, just for suggesting that Palestinians have a right to the land as well? Doesn�t it say something about the fanaticism of some people when they are willing to disown family members and friends just for questioning the rights of Israel to treat Palestinians the way they do?

It is important to keep Jews from being persecuted again. But it is equally important to keep ANY group of people from being persecuted, and this includes Palestinians.

The claim that criticism against Israel, especially criticism from the UN, is fuelled by anti-Semitism or bigotry is completely unreasonable and as big a slanderous myth as the whole �Jews knew about 9/11 before I happened� bit.

[ 04-15-2004: Message edited JohannafromIHJ ]

Maggie aka Sarah · 04-15-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StellaSlight:
I'm not talking about the 'controversial policies' since the past 40 years. I was directly mentioning the fact that Palestine think that Jews stole their territories, and then fought against them, and that 99% of the Muslim world thought the same.
Well, I'm sure those countries wouldn't have bothered that much if it had been decreeted that Israel should be situated right in Asia.

Sorry for being off topic again, but there are things that needed to be cleared out.

StellaSlight: If we are going to discuss if this and if that, etc., etc... then... in my opinion... the if that if several million Jews hadn't had lost their lives in the Holocaust during WW2 and if the USA and Canada, etc., etc., had been more willing to accept Jewish refugees, then maybe perhaps the history of the middle east would be different.

Yes... there was a movement of Jewish people BACK to Israel prior to WW2... but in my opinion.... if the hellish and heinious stuff that happened during WW2 hadn't had happened... and if other countries would have welcomed more Jewish refuggees from Europe... the development of Israel would have been greatly different.

Sorry to be off topic. Whoops should work.

Maggie

AlexEvans · 04-15-2004, 09:39 AM

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But it's not anti-Semitic. Anti-Israel, more like. One simply can't conclude that Europeans are anti-Semitic based on a poll showing that many Europeans are wary of Israel.

But why are they wary of Israel? Because they're anti-semitic.

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What Israel, along with the US, is doing to Palestinians is dangerously close to what was done to Jews before WW2 and a bit into it - portraying a lot of them as people who are malicious and do not have a right to the land they've lived on for a long, long time. Whether this will lead to concentration camps for those who oppose Israel or not, is anyone's guess. I hope not.

You mean what Arafat and the Arab world has done? The refugeee camps are not Israel's fault. It wasn't Israel who told the Palestinians to leave. It wasn't Israel who refused to assimilate refugees.

Israel didn't create the refugee problem or the refugee camps. Blaming Israel for the situation is anti-semitic.

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But homes have already been destroyed, children have been killed and leaders assassinated.

Israel has destroyed homes. It shouldn't have done that. Criticize away. But don't compare it to what the Nazis did.

Children have died when used as shields by terrorists, or when attempting to commit murder due to brainwashing by the Palestinians. Blaming Israel for this is absurd.

Israel assassinated terrorist leaders. I think this is wonderful You disagree, criticize away.

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Well, better people are over-cautious and critical than allow another crime against humanity to happen. Maybe the Palestinian refugee camps are all roses and honey and perfectly acceptable for humans to live in - but if they're not, at least we can say we didn't sit quietly and let it all happen this time. Israel is still a part of the world and needs to be monitored like every other country. I mean, people are criticising Gautanamo, but they�re not being accused of being in favour of discriminating again and persecuting Americans. Lots of people have spoken out against the orphanages in China � but I don�t see anyone there calling the West anti-Asian.

Blaming Israel for the refugee camps in anti-semitic, because Israel didn't create them.

Feel free to criticize the camps. Feel free to criticize Arafat and the Arab states for keeping people cooped up in them. Feel free to criticize the Arab states for telling people to leave Israel while the Jews were wiped out, they could come back afterwards.

But drop the Nazi Germany comparisons, because awfully as the Arab states have treated the Palestinians, they haven't tried to exterminate them.

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Ah, I see. Because the behaviour of Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians is not at all close to the behaviour of Nazi soldiers before and for some parts during WW2?

That is a truly horrible comparison.

Israeli soldiers take huge risks in order to minimize civilian casualties. They have talked retarded children through removing the bomb vests terrorists have strapped to them. No, it isn't at all close to the behaviour of the Nazis - and it is vile to suggest such a thing.

Nor is it either reasonable or honest to take the criminal action of an individual and compare it to the policy of a totalitarian state.

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Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because Israel bulldozers down the homes of large families with small children, who do not have anywhere to go, since they�ve lived on that land for a hell of a long time? We�re not allowed to do that in Sweden, or Britain, or Germany or whatever � so why should it be OK for Israel to do it?

Israel, in desperation to stop terrorist attacks, destroys the homes of terrorists. Other people live there too; Israel shouldn't do it. But comparing this to the Nazis is unreasonable.

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And I don't think a lot of people are calling it Auschwitz. I do think a lot of people are worried it'll turn in to one.

Not reasonably worried. And blaming Israel is preposterous.

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Not anti-Semitism. It�s anti-Israel. Anti-Semitism is hating and discriminating against Jews, not questioning Israel's right to exist. Yet another person who flings about the word "anti-Semite" as he sees fit without respecting what it actually means.

It is anti-semitism masquerading as anti-Israel. It is the belief Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. It is the belief an advanced democracy with a superb human rights (flawed like that of all states) deserves more criticism than the many dictatorships around the world. It is the belief there should be 23 Arab states and no Jewish state, although Jews face annihilation as no other people ever has.

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maggie aka Sarah:


StellaSlight: If we are going to discuss if this and if that, etc., etc... then... in my opinion... the if that if several million Jews hadn't had lost their lives in the Holocaust during WW2 and if the USA and Canada, etc., etc., had been more willing to accept Jewish refugees, then maybe perhaps the history of the middle east would be different.

Yes... there was a movement of Jewish people BACK to Israel prior to WW2... but in my opinion.... if the hellish and heinious stuff that happened during WW2 hadn't had happened... and if other countries would have welcomed more Jewish refuggees from Europe... the development of Israel would have been greatly different.

Sorry to be off topic. Whoops should work.

Maggie

I'm not one to change history, and I am fully aware of what happened in WW2. And I know that there was movement of Jewish people back to what would-become-Israel prior to WW2. And maybe that there wouldn't have been a nation like Israel, had WW2 not occured (which forced the flight of most of the Jews in Europe).
But what happened has happened. Holocaust did happen, and millions of Jews needed a land. While I ackowledge that it was their right to ask for their own land, I'm sure the Palestinians were not happy at all to see their lands invaded, Holocaust or not. And you know that Muslims are very supportive of each other. So when one is attacked, the other feel attacked as well.
Here's the situation we're dealing with now, after half a century of history, so I really don't see the need of discussing the what ifs.

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 10:04 AM

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But why are they wary of Israel? Because they're anti-semitic.

Well well well. That's a really huge statement that shows quite well how narrow-minded this logic is.
And frankly that resumes quite well the "anti" comments we've been denouncing. Call it that it is bigotry from our part but it is exactly what we were denouncing for days.

Few months ago, someone else said that a poll showed Europeans countries were racists because there was a rise of the anti-Muslims feeling. Now we're anti-semitic. Well, looks like we like neither Palestine nor Israel then, don't we?

No, we're weary of Israel (through Sharon) because he proved that he made dangerous decisions for the peace, just like the wall that he is building.
But hey, we also criticized Palestine (through Arafat and the bombings) lots of time, but this attitude is only explained by the poll that showed that Europe was anti-Muslims, right?