News & Politics - Bush's Pre-9/11 Terrorist Memo - Page 6

sum1 · 04-13-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by indium:
similarly critisising Isreal is NOT anti-semitism.
have have been some opinion polls in europe recently (wish i could find a link here) that showed that a majority of europeans thought that Isreal was the biggest threat to world peace, above iraq north korea, axis of evil etc. This seems to be a big difference between europe and the US. I bring this up because it has been mooted that the continual support of the US government for the isreali government is one of the big issues that has caused such anti-us feeling among the arab world which is probably why keeps coming up in connection to this area.

What that poll showed was the amount of anti-Semitic bias that is widespread in Europe. Such a view of Israel as that poll demonstrated is not in keeping with the reality and is influenced by the modern forms of the anti-Semitic attitudes that have plagued Europe for millenia. That poll shocked and horrified Jews worldwide. And it has been the recent experience of European Jews that some people in Europe will often blame them for whatever Israel does, as if every Jew in Europe was Ariel Sharon. Anti-Semitism is very much active on the European continent.

Criticising Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but it certainly can be. And blaming Israel unfairly, holding it to a standard other countries aren't being held to, criticising it for things one isn't criticising other countries for, singling it out for repeated harsh treatment by double standard, blaming it for things that aren't its fault, etc -that looks suspiciously like one of the modern forms of anti-Semitism. It is widely recognized that while much criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, there is also much criticism of Israel that is indeed anti-Semitic in motivation.

And no, the US's problems with the Middle East involve a lot more than Israel and the problems would still be very much there without Israel. It involves hatred of the West as a whole, and hating the US for itself. And it involves terrorists/fundamentalists (who can influence the views of the Middle Eastern populace) who are bitter over the medieval crusades that happened so long ago (and in which Europe invaded the Islamic world), and over Western empires colonizing the Muslim world in times before the Israeli state existed, etc. The modern West as a whole is seen as the heir to those wrongs done against the Islamic world and America is seen as the foremost representative of the West. American/Western culture spreading about the world and into Islamic countries is seen as a modern form of those earlier invasions. Also, the US and and Europe are involved in Middle Eastern affairs for a lot more reasons than just Israel (for example oil, post-cold war involvements, etc) and that involvement is resented. To a considerable degree, Israel is hated so much because of its connection with the US and the West, rather than the other way around (though of course anti-Semitism is also a factor). Blaming it all on Israel is unjustified and and wrong.

[ 04-13-2004: Message edited sum1 ]

Enigma, I.C. · 04-13-2004, 10:09 AM

If anti-semitism is going to be the thread topic then can we get the title changed?

ceilirose · 04-13-2004, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Enigma, I.C.:
If anti-semitism is going to be the thread topic then can we get the title changed?

ITA..or how about a separate thread dealing with anti-Semitism gets started so that the topic of this thread can be discussed? The 9/11 Commission work is a very important subject as well and deserves a thread to itself.

**n e r b l e** · 04-13-2004, 05:50 PM

considering that people had ducks after 9/11 about "racial profiling" and therefore had to pull over little ladies to search thier shoes, i hardly think they would have allowed bush to do anything pre 9/11. it's a different world.

StellaSlight · 04-13-2004, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Posted by Abducted Bookworm :

Stella, good points, except that the parallels are not comparable. I don't like everything I've heard about CNN's coverage either, but I think it's a stretch to equate if with Al Jazeera (perhaps you didn't even do that), especially since you correctly note how limited information sources are in some parts of the world. I think there are far greater problems with one than with the other.

I think both are comparable to a certain degree, but I quite agree that the informations from CNN are a more credible source. I was taking the exemple of Al-Jazeera because it is, in my opinion, the one that is less biased of all, in countries where almost all medias are openly spreading propaganda.

Quote:

Posted by Sum1 :

To a considerable degree, Israel is hated so much because of its connection with the US and the West, rather than the other way around (though of course anti-Semitism is also a factor). Blaming it all on Israel is unjustified and and wrong.

The Muslims countries have hated Israel for the past 40 years mainly because of its conflict with Palestine, and what they consider to be 'the martyr of their Muslim brothers' (that's the recurrent term used by Muslims in those countries on television). They've hated Israel even before they started to hate the US : their resentment towards the US, due to a natural hate of the capitalism and the 'depraved' exemple of the western world that the US are, reinforced by the interventions the US made in the past 30-40 years in Muslim countries, has been increased by the support the US have given to Isreal the past decades and not the other way around.

indium · 04-14-2004, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sum1:
What that poll showed was the amount of anti-Semitic bias that is widespread in Europe.

I disagree but i suspect that that's a point we would never agree on.

Quote:

Such a view of Israel as that poll demonstrated is not in keeping with the reality

in what way?

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That poll shocked and horrified Jews worldwide.

as it should have

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And it has been the recent experience of European Jews that people in Europe will often blame them for whatever Israel does, as if every Jew in Europe was Ariel Sharon. Anti-Semitism is very much active on the European continent.

alas yes it is. and that's a big problem. I'm aware that some people are unable to differentiate between isreali government policy and judaism

Quote:

Criticising Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but it certainly can be. And blaming Israel unfairly, holding it to a standard other countries aren't being held to, criticising it for things one isn't criticising other countries for, singling it out for repeated harsh treatment by double standard, blaming it for things that aren't its fault, etc -that looks suspiciously like one of the modern forms of anti-Semitism. It is widely recognized that while much criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, there is also much criticism of Israel that is indeed anti-Semitic in motivation.

compeletly agree with you there. i'm just not aware of any instances where that applies, ie where double standards etc have been applied.

Quote:

And no, the US's problems with the Middle East involve a lot more than Israel and the problems would still be very much there without Israel. It involves hatred of the West as a whole, and hating the US for itself. And it involves terrorists/fundamentalists <snip> factor). Blaming it all on Israel is unjustified and and wrong.

absoultely. in no way is it anything more than a factor in a very complex situation

back to the topic....

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited indium- cause i'm typoing so much this morning. need more coffee!]

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited indium ]

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited indium ]

JohannafromIHJ · 04-14-2004, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sum1:
What that poll showed was the amount of anti-Semitic bias that is widespread in Europe.

Viewing Israel as a threat to world peace is not anti-Semitic. Viewing Jews as a threat to world peace is anti-Semitic.

I've never run across anyone here who hates Jews. But I know a lot of people who are worried that the leaders of Israel are now doing to people what was done to Jews during WW2 - excluding, persecuting and scapegoating.

AlexEvans · 04-14-2004, 08:58 AM

Believing Israel to be a threat to world peace is anti-semitic. It is not a reasonable point of view. It is not possible to hold that belief except through anti-Semitic paranoia and belief in outright lies about Israel - lies believed only because of anti-Semitism.

It is also anti-Semitic to compare Israel to Nazi Germany. It is not a reasonable comparison; it is totally outrageous. It is based on the same factors as above.

JohannafromIHJ · 04-14-2004, 09:32 AM

Sorry, but that's bull. You can't just throw around the word anti-Semite to win arguments. Israel is a cause of great disagreements, not just in the Middle East but between the US and other countries. It is not unreasonable to think that the aggressive politics one associates with Israel, and the Israel-US "alliance" is a threat to world-peace.

It is, however, unreasonable to assume that everyone who doesn't agree with everything Israel says or does is an anti-Semite. Jews can be wrong too. They can kill, rape, murder and pillage, just like the rest of us.

The word anti-Semite means: "One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews."

Disagreeing with Israel�s politics does not mean you're automatically hostile, prejudiced or discriminating against Jews. Europe is not doing those things. Individuals may, but the governments and majority of the population are not. I see no "Jews not welcome" signs anywhere, I've never heard of a Jew losing his/her job because of being Jewish, and if European governments are acting hostile towards Jews, they're very good at covering it up.

But Jews, as far as I know, are not defined by Israel. There are Jews in other parts of the world, who have neither intentions of moving to Israel nor any desire to. The people who are against Israel�s politics are not against the Jews living next door to them. It�s about Israel, not the worldwide Jewish people. I mean, there are plenty of Jews who are against Israel�s politics as well � I don�t see anyone calling them anti-Semitic. A school friend of mine was Jewish and he didn�t care much for Israel at all, but he loved his culture and his religion none the less.

If you can label Europeans as anti-Semites based on a poll that says Europe is fearful of what Israel's politics might bring, then I could label everyone who disagrees with European politics as anti-Europeans. Not anti-Europe (though certainly that as well), but anti-Europeans. Because, hey, being against the politics of a country must mean you're against its inhabitants as well, right?

And may I just remind you that people only said that they think Israel is a threat to peace - not that they hate the country itself.

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited JohannafromIHJ ]

StellaSlight · 04-14-2004, 09:36 AM

Well it's the same association anti-US politics = anti-Americans but it's already been discussed here in the same thread, has it?

Avatar · 04-14-2004, 10:15 AM

Let me try and see if I have this figured out ... if I think Zimbabwe is a threat to world peace due to Robert Mugabe's crazy politics (they probably isn't, but work with me for a second), but have nothing against the people of Zimbabwe, does that make be a racist since Mugabe happens to be black? Does thinking Idi Amin or Sadaam Hussein or Pol Pot was a tyrant make me anti-anything? And if not, why does thinking Sharon is a tyrant and disagreeing with Israeli policy and believing them to be a threat to world peace, but, and this is important, have absolutely nothing against Jews as a people or Judaism as a religion, make me an anti-semite?

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited Avatar ]

AlexEvans · 04-14-2004, 10:35 AM

There is a difference between disagreeing with Israel policies, or alleging Israel doesn't do enough to achieve peace, or does too much to defend itself, and considering Israel a threat to peace.

There is a difference between considering a tyrant a tyrant and considering a democratically elected leader bound by parliament, supreme court and constitution a tyrant. You might argue that Sharon might be a tyrant, if he were in a country where he could be. Or that Janet Jackson would be a tyrant if she were interested in politics and was in a different country. But neither of them is a tyrant, and saying that either of them is is utterly ludicrous.

These are simple and obvious distinctions.

AirBear · 04-14-2004, 10:44 AM

Quote:

There is a difference between disagreeing with Israel policies, or alleging Israel doesn't do enough to achieve peace, or does too much to defend itself, and considering Israel a threat to peace.

That's ridiculous. By simple logic one would say that Israel is a threat to peace if they don't "do enough to achieve peace".

It's frankly offensive to have you two throwing around the term "anti-semetic". Use it for people who truly deserve the title, not as a way to bully those who disagree with you out of an argument.

ros2nz · 04-14-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

It is not a reasonable point of view. It is not possible to hold that belief except through anti-Semitic paranoia and belief in outright lies about Israel - lies believed only because of anti-Semitism.

Excuse me, but can you go around telling people what is or is not a reasonable point of view according to your own? That, in itself, is arrogant and unreasonable. And please stop using Anti-Semitism as a defense for all Israeli actions. They're not perfet, just like the rest of us. Going down the whole 'they've been so wronged' road is being a little blind regarding the current situation.

ros2nz · 04-14-2004, 11:08 AM

double post

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited ros2nz ]