News & Politics - Bush's Pre-9/11 Terrorist Memo - Page 5

Katis · 04-12-2004, 03:44 PM

I am not saying that it's not ok to ever use the terms anti-semetic and anti-american. What I am asking is for people to be sure that that is the case before making that allegation. Of course I am not saying never use the terms because sometimes they are true, and they happen. I'm just asking people to realize that when they use these terms against one another they should be absolutely sure they are true. Just as you would want to make sure that any other fact you used in an arguement was true before presenting it. It's not a supreme command, it's a request.

Avatar · 04-12-2004, 05:17 PM

How a discussion of Bush and 11/9 durned into a discussion on anti-Semitism still baffles me, but I think that if a comment is truly anti-semitic or anti-American or anti-anything, then it's so vile and reprehensible that everyone would agree that it's crossed the line.

Other than that, I think calling people opinion anti-anything serves more as a red herring, as usually it's easier to dismiss an opinion you don't agree with as being anti-something than it is to truly discuss it.

I think Steve Earle may have said it best: "The most important thing to remember is, no matter what anybody tells you, that is it is never, ever unpatriotic or un-American to question any f---ing thing in a democracy".

AlexEvans · 04-12-2004, 06:45 PM

Why are we discussing anti-Semitism?

Because an anti-Semitic myth was brought up... one that ties in neatly with the allegations about the American government that are the main topic of this thread.

Both stories are part of a pattern of blaming the victims of terrorism, and in particular of attempting to blame the destruction of the World Trade Center on Israel and/or the United States instead of Al Quaeda.

Both stories have been flourishing for some time - Israel is widely blamed in the Muslim world, while in France a book that blames the CIA is a bestseller (although I'm still enough of a blind optimist to hope that just because they're buying the book doesn't mean the French are buying the myth).

Both stories are used not only to discredit the war on terror, but to promote terrorism.

These stories matter. They have consequences in the real world. They are not "interesting" theories. They are horrifying and dangerous slanders.

Indri · 04-12-2004, 08:41 PM

I think the big mistake with Bush or Clinton ist very underestimate the memo and cant sort the intelegent data who will be danger for their country [img]smilies/look.gif[/img] of course this is why USA never can understand the situation in middle east because many people frustrated with USA and Israel, maybe Israel have the memo so they can tell her relative in USA this will be happend maybe this make many not going to work ...... this my theory [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

Maggie aka Sarah · 04-12-2004, 11:03 PM

Indri: In my opinion, you are providing an example of exactly what Abducted Bookworm is discussing.

There is a definite split as what information is taken as a given depending on stuff like what part of the world one is from and what kind of stuff one has learned in school, and what one reads in the newspapers. My take on this subject tends to be that if Bush had acted on this memo prior to 9/11 there would have been screams about racial discrimination against Muslim Arabs from all over the world... including the US and Canada.

Bush also had to... and still has to... in my opinion... be very very wary of upsetting the Saudis... seeing that the Saudis control a lot of the world's oil. I find it interesting that various conspiricy theories fixate on the US and Israel... when the country that seems to be the most implicated in the causes of 9/11 is Saudi Arabia... especially when I think of the radical form of Islam that the Saudis have been spreading around the world for decades.

Any ways... maybe the US does misunderstand the Middle East. But maybe perhaps in many ways the Middle East misunderstands the US. Like for example... the rhetoric that the US is full of sinful infidels doesn't go over all that well... especially since a great many Americans are religious and even fundamentalist in their viewpoints. Oh and suicide bombings aimed at civilians make me... a Canadian... react with total disgust and in my opinion, people who plan and implement suicide bombings are not heroes, or matyrs... but heinious criminals. And in my opinion, if even part of the aim of suicide bombings is to get the USA, etc., to side with any particular group... it's not going to work.

Also, in my opinion... dancing and having a party while burning and carving up bodies doesn't play all that well in the US.

Oh well. Any ways... this sort of cultural divide, or whatever one calls it reminds me of something that the President of Pakitstan said just after 9/11... while he was announcing that he was going to support the US... some thing to the effect that countries have to decide whether to be part of the world, or not. And in my opinion, if a country wants to be part of the world and have the respect of the USA and other western countries... then respect should be offered towards the US and the western world. And attempts made to understand Western values.

And part and parcel of respecting and understanding a lot of Americans and the values of a lot of people in Western world, is that repeating anti-semitic myths for the most part doesn't gain respect... but labels whomever repeats the myths as being anti-semitic.

Yep... in my opinion... if the Middle East wants the support of the USA... then attempts should be made to understand the USA.

And while I don't agree with all of Bush's political stances and actions, I feel very strongly that if he had acted on this memo prior to 9/11 and the Saudis had been offended and had arranged for the price of gas to go up dramatically in the US... there would have been a lot of screams from Americans, in addition to the screams about racial profiling, etc. The guy was like in a no win situation.

Maggie

AirBear · 04-12-2004, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Oh well. Any ways... this sort of cultural divide, or whatever one calls it reminds me of something that the President of Pakitstan said just after 9/11... while he was announcing that he was going to support the US... some thing to the effect that countries have to decide whether to be part of the world, or not. And in my opinion, if a country wants to be part of the world and have the respect of the USA and other western countries... then respect should be offered towards the US and the western world. And attempts made to understand Western values.

Wow.

Countries do not have to agree with the United States and western countries to "be a part of the world". Attempts at understanding values and cultures should be made on ALL sides, including the West educating themselves about the East.

[ 04-12-2004: Message edited AirBear ]

Maggie aka Sarah · 04-12-2004, 11:48 PM

AirBear: I totally agree that "attempts at understanding values and cultures should be made on ALL sides."

I did not intent to say that all countries should agree with the USA... just was attempting to say that in my opinion, that the attempt should be made to understand the USA. And I would re-iterate that the "part of the world" whatever was paraphrased from a speech that was made by the President of Pakistan.

It's just to my ears... a lot of what I read and hear that comes out of a the Middle East and other parts of the world... appears to be heavily biased negative type whatevers directed towards the USA... that often seem to end up with whatevers about how the USA doesn't support the country from whence the heavily negative type criticism is emanating from. My reaction to that sort of whatever is usually a deeply felt... HUH????

Any ways... from my point of view... the blame the USA for all the problems in the world whatever can only go so far... and at some point of time ALL the countries in this world will maybe have to deal at least in part with the responsibility for their own actions whatevers.

And yep... I do feel that in order to be part of the world that we have now that it is very important for at least the governments of other countries to understand the USA... taking into account the world power with no real rivals whatever. That is just how I view the world. I am aware that others have different opinions... but since... ummm... whether one wants to accept it or not... the USA is about the only world power going... it makes sense to me that attempts should be made to understand the USA... whether one agrees with it's government's policies, or not.

Actually... since Americans seem to have opinions all over the proverbial map on all sorts of whatevers... in my opinion, even having some knowlege of the diversity of American opinions would be a good thing... whether one views the US as a friend, or as an enemy. Because when I read stuff that implies that ALL Americans think alike... it usually makes me giggle... and then feel sort of sad about the whole massive generalisation whatever that often goes on in this world.

Maggie

ceilirose · 04-13-2004, 04:44 AM

I guess I've had a different experience in flying after 9/11. It could be that the majority of my flying has been in and out of Boston but most people are pretty patient about the extra security measures. That goes for other cities too. Maybe I've just been lucky and caught people on good days.

Most are focusing on the reactions against extra security procedures and how racial profiling would have been perceived prior to 9/11. That would have only been some of the actions that could have been take. The existence of Al Queda cells were known to be in the US..how about increased surveillance of them?

This link is about Zacarias Moussaoui:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067363/

He was picked up by the FBI in August of 2001 because the local flight instructors found his behavior suspicious. I'm not sure that this happened but should not the FBI have sent memos out to all the flight schools in the US reporting this arrest and to inform their local authorities of anyone who fit this profile? Again I'm not sure it wasn't done. I couldn't find any info this morning and don't remember it happening at the time. Information about the hijackers and their flight school history came flowing out after 9/11 but what about prior to that date? It wouldn't have stopped 9/11 but it would have been a proactive move.

The thing is that lost in all the politics of the 9/11 Commission (Democrats and Republicans alike) is that our Government doesn't do the best job it can in disseminating information from the top down and information from the ground up takes forever to get to the appropriate people. If it even does. To paraphrase an old term - the buck has to stop somewhere. Out of all of this..someone has to be in charge of coordinating all this information and setting a plan in action. Who is that person or entity?

Originally posted by Maggie aka Sarah

Quote:

Bush also had to... and still has to... in my opinion... be very very wary of upsetting the Saudis... seeing that the Saudis control a lot of the world's oil. I find it interesting that various conspiricy theories fixate on the US and Israel... when the country that seems to be the most implicated in the causes of 9/11 is Saudi Arabia... especially when I think of the radical form of Islam that the Saudis have been spreading around the world for decades.

I wouldn't use the term 'wary of upsetting the Saudis' as something that Bush should be concerned with..I'm more concerned that the US hasn't really dealt with the Saudis in any sort of an honest way prior to and after 9/11. They've sort of been ignored and labeled as a US ally and that's that. I agree with the rest of your thoughts though - Saudi Arabia does need to be looked at more closely in it's ties to 9/11 and in terrorism in general.

In terms of what Westerners know about the Middle East and vice versa..Terry Anderson (former Lebanon hostage) says that "however complicated you think the Middle East is..it's much more than that." It probably goes both ways.

[ 04-13-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

AlexEvans · 04-13-2004, 05:00 AM

oops

[ 04-13-2004: Message edited Abducted Bookworm ]

AlexEvans · 04-13-2004, 05:01 AM

Excellent posts, Maggie.

I agree that understanding has to be two ways... a lot of people talk about how we have to make an effort to understand the Islamic World, but I think you're right that it needs to be two-ways, and that repeating some of these myths - often on state-controlled TV - eradicates the credibility of many states.

We have cared a lot about Saudi Arabia... I think that has been a major mistake.

Ceilirose, what profile? I see what you're saying... but religion and ethnic background are crucial parts of the profile here. Could anything really have been done?

In any case, it should be remembered that parts of the government were legally forbidden to share information, particularly between the FBI and CIA.

ceilirose · 04-13-2004, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm:
Ceilirose, what profile? I see what you're saying... but religion and ethnic background are crucial parts of the profile here. Could anything really have been done?

After 9/11 it became apparent that many of the hijackers had taken flight lessons in the US. However the pattern was that none of them were interested in learning how to take off and land jets. It was all about flying the jets once they were in the air. In hindsight it's suspicious behavior. Something raised suspicions with the flight school in Minnesota that caused them to call the authorities. The link has a good explanation on Moussaoui's behavior.

I think I've said in more than one post on this thread that nothing could have been done to prevent 9/11. The issue is whether the Government is working together to prevent any future attacks and what can be learned from what happened prior to 9/11 in terms of what the Government didn't do.

Quote:

In any case, it should be remembered that parts of the government were legally forbidden to share information, particularly between the FBI and CIA.

True but I don't think the FBI needs the CIA's approval to do surveillance or to make arrests. It's obvious in this case since Moussaoui was detained. There is no law in place that prevents high ranking FBI administrators to report finding to their superiors in the Government. Findings were not reported and action not taken for whatever reason.

[ 04-13-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

*Ledi* · 04-13-2004, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm:
<STRONG>Why are we discussing anti-Semitism?

Because an anti-Semitic myth was brought up... one that ties in neatly with the allegations about the American government that are the main topic of this thread.

Both stories are part of a pattern of blaming the victims of terrorism, and in particular of attempting to blame the destruction of the World Trade Center on Israel and/or the United States instead of Al Quaeda.

Both stories have been flourishing for some time - Israel is widely blamed in the Muslim world, while in France a book that blames the CIA is a bestseller (although I'm still enough of a blind optimist to hope that just because they're buying the book doesn't mean the French are buying the myth).

Both stories are used not only to discredit the war on terror, but to promote terrorism.

These stories matter. They have consequences in the real world. They are not "interesting" theories. They are horrifying and dangerous slanders.</STRONG>

you know... I still don't get it. you turned this into something totally different than what my post really was about. again, I just said what I had heard... and I related that to my opinion... but now you're basically telling me that I can't think that way? because it might make the US look bad?

and no, no one's blaming your beloved country instead of Al Quaeda. but yeah of course you'll think I was because I happen to disagree with you about this topic.

[ 04-13-2004: Message edited *Ledi* ]

StellaSlight · 04-13-2004, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Posted by Abducted Bookworm :

I agree that understanding has to be two ways... a lot of people talk about how we have to make an effort to understand the Islamic World, but I think you're right that it needs to be two-ways, and that repeating some of these myths - often on state-controlled TV - eradicates the credibility of many states.

The way I see it, medias from both parts (American and Muslim ones) are conveying biased, one-sided informations that do nothing but enlarging the gap between the two cultures.

On one hand, medias like CNN (and this is a mild exemple) focus on suicide attacks, cheering crowds that celebrates Americans' death, speeches of hate from islamic leaders, scene of combats where GIs are being attacked, hostages taking etc...
On the other hand, medias like Al-Jazeera (and this one is claiming to be neutral and un-biased, I'm not even talking about those awful extremist networks who are preaching the intifada) mainly show images of Muslims families mourning their dead, attacks on Iraqis by coalition armies or attacks on Palestinians by Israelis, speech of 'Axis of evil' by Bush or threat of assassination on leaders by Sharon, 'invasions' on countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine etc...

It is hard in those conditions for people from both sides to view things from the other's point of view, and myths like the one you're so strongly denouncing are easy to spread, especially in Muslims countries, where access to world's informations is harder to get.

AlexEvans · 04-13-2004, 08:15 AM

Ceilirose, okay, now I see what you mean by profile. Yes, that's definitely worth keeping in mind.

Ledi, we were informing you of where the story you repeated comes from. We told you exactly what you were talking about, since you didn't know. We did not turn it into anything.

Stella, good points, except that the parallels are not comparable. I don't like everything I've heard about CNN's coverage either, but I think it's a stretch to equate if with Al Jazeera (perhaps you didn't even do that), especially since you correctly note how limited information sources are in some parts of the world. I think there are far greater problems with one than with the other.

indium · 04-13-2004, 08:25 AM

this thread seems to have gotten very off track and confused. and i'm coming in late but....

Extra security measures pre 911 would just have hacked people off. In the UK we recently had a number of 'warnings', along the lines of 'be vigilent' but until the police said look 'we've found this plot' most people didn't take them in seriously because they wouldn't tell us why. similarly the grounding of all those washington flights recently. 1st one- rational response to (alleged)security threat, 2nd- being careful. 5th- getting stupid.

personally i'm big on civil liberities so i'd rather a thousand people die every year due to terrorism than one person is made to say where they've been, or what they've done, or stopped from flying where they want or when they want and i apperciate that I have quite an extreme response to it, but even with out that background without a solid public 'seeing' of the threat such things just become overkill and annoying and are ignored.

as for the anti-thing stuff... some people are overtly sensitive to this. critising the American goverment policy, american media, bush, Cia, does not mean someone is being anti-american.

similarly critisising Isreal is NOT anti-semitism.
have have been some opinion polls in europe recently (wish i could find a link here) that showed that a majority of europeans thought that Isreal was the biggest threat to world peace, above iraq north korea, axis of evil etc. This seems to be a big difference between europe and the US. I bring this up because it has been mooted that the continual support of the US government for the isreali government is one of the big issues that has caused such anti-us feeling among the arab world which is probably why keeps coming up in connection to this area.

did Bush know? Of course not. Could he have prevented it? No. Sure with hindsight we can see the trail but no way could Bush have prevented it, well not from the time of this memo. perhaps if you started around 1960 maybe.