News & Politics - Bush's Pre-9/11 Terrorist Memo - Page 2

elisheva · 04-11-2004, 09:24 AM

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These, along with other stories such as the Jenin fabrication and the Big Oil Lie, are the modern Western versions of the Blood Libel or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

These are stories told to incite hatred of Americans and Jews. To transfer blame from the murderers, to those who fight murder. To incite violence. To incite more murder.

Repeating them is vile. Believing them incomprehensible.

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People are forgetting about the Jenin lie; I saw it mentioned as "alleged crimes" or something like that, but the author of the story neglected to mention that they were flat out lies.
*Ledi*, I'm pretty sure what your friend's mom said isn't true. It might be a rumour floating around that a lot of people have latched on to. [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by ceilirose:

Abducted Bookworm - with all due respect you're overreacting to a benign comment made about Jews in relation to 9/11. The only rules we have to follow here are FF rules. People shouldn't be intimidated about what subjects they can or can't talk about. If someone is critical of the US policies, or Israeli polices or the policies of The Bahamas then they should feel free to express those within the rules of FF.

A benign comment about Jews? Benign? What is "benign" about saying that Jews stayed home on 9/11 because they knew the attack would happen? It's a hateful and malevolent thing to say. (Clarification -- Im not saying that *Ledi* said that; I'm saying that when people do say it, it's a horrible, malicious, destructive thing to say.)

ceilirose · 04-11-2004, 09:32 AM

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Originally posted by elisheva:


A benign comment about Jews? Benign? What is "benign" about saying that Jews stayed home on 9/11 because they knew the attack would happen? It's a hateful and malevolent thing to say. (Clarification -- Im not saying that *Ledi* said that; I'm saying that when people do say it, it's a horrible, malicious, destructive thing to say.)

It's the tone in which the original comment was made. It wasn't in my opinion made in any malicious fashion. It is one of the many rumors, conjectures, theories about 9/11 that go around the internet, rumor mill and water coolers. Some make sense and some are just a bunch of you know what. Not everything that includes a reference to Jews is anti-Semitic to all of us and we have a right to express that thought without being jumped on. You expressed yourself fairly in your original post. Bringing in Jenin, Oil and who only knows what else in Abducted Bookworm post is what I find inappropriate and offensive in a post about a memo on 9/11 from Bush's administration. If that's a legitimate subject than open a thread on it..it really doesn't have anything to do with that memo.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

AlexEvans · 04-11-2004, 09:56 AM

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Originally posted by *Ledi*:


I don't know... that's all her mom said... that a lot of people didn't show up at work that day which was sort of weird & suspicious and well she said they probably knew something was going to happen since they all didn't show up on that day. and no...she didn't say "Jews"... or anything.

I really don't know anything else - I'm just saying what I've been told.

It's the people who invented the story, and who spread it around, who I'm mad at. Not you, who I'm sure just heard it and didn't know the origins.

Ceilirose, I never said there shouldn't be criticism. I said people should not search for rational reasons for irrational hatred, when on this board we've seen a few of the pernicious myths that are behind such hatred.

The totally and clearly false allegations regarding what Bush knew are just part of the framework of anti-semitic and anti-american lies that have become so much a part of the modern political discourse. They are relevant and important to what we are discussing, and are an extremely powerful force in contemporary geopolitics.

It is not benign to spread myths about Jews, or about Americans. People act on those myths. People kill over those myths.

There are times rumours or funny stories are safe. In the last Ontario election, the Liberal leader (now Premier) was called (an inside joke that got sent to the wrong e-mail address) a "reptilian kitten eater." Nobody believed he (or Liberals in general) was reptilian, or ate kittens, or tried to kill him to save kittens from being eaten.

However, when similarly absurd stories are made about Jews or Americans, they are acted upon. They become not funny (if they ever were, which usually they weren't) but dangerous, and therefore offensive.

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ceilirose · 04-11-2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm

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The totally and clearly false allegations regarding what Bush knew are just part of the framework of anti-semitic and anti-american lies that have become so much a part of the modern political discourse. They are relevant and important to what we are discussing, and are an extremely powerful force in contemporary geopolitics.

Wait a minute..not everyone sees these allegations as totally and clearly false. I find fault in what BUsh and Clinton both did. More importantly those of us who are not behind Bush 100% do not deserve to be called part of some anti-Semitic and anti-American framework. That's offensive and a very narrow minded viewpoint. Basically you're calling people names who don't agree with you and that's against FF rules.

These boards used to be alot more active..maybe one of the reasons why the level of activity has gone is the ease in which people call each other names when their viewpoints disagree.

mh67511 · 04-11-2004, 10:30 AM

I still have yet to see the person who started this post give any rational explanation as to why it was titled "Bush informed of Sept 11th plot," when clearly Bush WAS NOT informed of the Sept 11th plot.

Like mentioned before, it's SO easy to say "something could have/should have been done," AFTER THE FACT. The truth is that none of us really know what intelligence there was or what precautions were made. All we have is a memo that gives very vague hints regarding intelligence and possible threats.

In addition, even if there were hints that planes could be hijacked, who in their right mind would think they would be hijacked and crashed into the WTC and Pentagon? I for one never imagined that even terrorists would do such a thing.

AlexEvans · 04-11-2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ceilirose:
Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm

Wait a minute..not everyone sees these allegations as totally and clearly false. I find fault in what BUsh and Clinton both did. More importantly those of us who are not behind Bush 100% do not deserve to be called part of some anti-Semitic and anti-American framework. That's offensive and a very narrow minded viewpoint. Basically you're calling people names who don't agree with you and that's against FF rules.

These boards used to be alot more active..maybe one of the reasons why the level of activity has gone is the ease in which people call each other names when their viewpoints disagree.

They are totally and clearly false, even absurd. It is unfortunate you don't see that.

There's a difference between "not being behind Bush 100%" and repeating baseless and bigoted falsehoods.

There is a difference between "finding fault with what Bush and Clinton did" and pretending that either of them knew or allowed what was going to happen.

It is impossible to discuss these allegations without discussing the motives behind them.

FF rules do not force posters to credit this sort of loony conspiracy theory as being either correct, possible or even reasonable.

The claims made in the topic line of this post, like others made on this board, are not simply incorrect. They are absurd. They are intrinsically unreasonable and unacceptable.

Perhaps people have left this board because they are made uncomfortable by the bigotry towards certain groups that is often prevalent on the News and Politics threads. Perhaps moderate Democrats have visited the so-called "Democrats" thread, been disgusted, and left the board instead of joining (as I have) the so-called "Republicans" thread.

I have called no-one any names. I have characterized certain allegations as unreasonable, and as having originated out of unsavoury motivations. I have done so only when completely sure of my ground and my basis in fact.

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ceilirose · 04-11-2004, 11:13 AM

Abducted Bookworm - All I can say is that I consider it unfortunate that someone who can express his position so well can't be broadminded enough to accept a position critical of theirs without resorting to name-calling. That's basically what's happening here. You can spin it anyway you want but you called someone not supporting Bush guilty of being anti-Semitic and anti-American. You're wrong on both counts. Your explanation of the motives behind those who disagree with Bush is just a very right wing radical sentiment. It should anger those who are true moderates..not those in name only.

I've been called names more numerous to recount here by posters on this board who disagree with my opinion. If you think it just happens to people who have Conservative or Repuplican views you're dead wrong and need to take another look at what's happening here.

Other than that I really don't have anything more to say to you on this subject.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

jjj · 04-11-2004, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mh67511:
I still have yet to see the person who started this post give any rational explanation as to why it was titled "Bush informed of Sept 11th plot," when clearly Bush WAS NOT informed of the Sept 11th plot.

Like mentioned before, it's SO easy to say "something could have/should have been done," AFTER THE FACT. The truth is that none of us really know what intelligence there was or what precautions were made. All we have is a memo that gives very vague hints regarding intelligence and possible threats.

In addition, even if there were hints that planes could be hijacked, who in their right mind would think they would be hijacked and crashed into the WTC and Pentagon? I for one never imagined that even terrorists would do such a thing.

Had to quote your entire post for emphasis and reiterate
What do people think the government should have done?
People complain now about the restrictions of airport security - even after what happened. Imagine if the gove't had put this in place prior to 9/11. The bit*hing and whining would have been horrific. Hindsight is so easy but imagine if the gov't had started monitoring all Arab looking citizen, travelers? The gov't would have been rightlfully accused of race profiling and violating their civil rights.

mh67511 · 04-11-2004, 12:45 PM

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Originally posted by jjj:
People complain now about the restrictions of airport security - even after what happened. Imagine if the gove't had put this in place prior to 9/11. The bit*hing and whining would have been horrific.

Exactly. And there is no reason to believe that increased security would have prevented the attacks. It's not as if the hijackers had machine guns; they had box cutters. And I'm not positive, but I don't know if they snuck onto the plane or were ticketed passengers.

For the record, my issue is with people making claims like "Bush informed of Sept 11th plot" and then not bothering to back up these (false) claims with an article or even explanation.

Enigma, I.C. · 04-11-2004, 01:06 PM

I think it's pretty pointless at this time to point fingers about who could have done what when where. What's done is done and all we can do is move forward, hopefully having learned from our past mistakes.

Charlize'sAngel · 04-11-2004, 01:09 PM

I don't think any amount of preparation can protect us from such events... It can maybe reduce the risk but it can't prevent it from happening.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited Charlize'sAngel ]

AlexEvans · 04-11-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ceilirose:
Abducted Bookworm - All I can say is that I consider it unfortunate that someone who can express his position so well can't be broadminded enough to accept a position critical of theirs without resorting to name-calling. That's basically what's happening here. You can spin it anyway you want but you called someone not supporting Bush guilty of being anti-Semitic and anti-American. You're wrong on both counts. Your explanation of the motives behind those who disagree with Bush is just a very right wing radical sentiment. It should anger those who are true moderates..not those in name only.

I've been called names more numerous to recount here by posters on this board who disagree with my opinion. If you think it just happens to people who have Conservative or Repuplican views you're dead wrong and need to take another look at what's happening here.

Other than that I really don't have anything more to say to you on this subject.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

"critical" "not supporting Bush" "disagree with Bush" Fine. But that isn't what's being discussed.

Please stop misrepresenting my posts.

Claiming that Bush knew in advance of September 11th is absurd and calculated to incite anti-Americanism. That is what I said. Repeatedly. Very clearly.

There are moderates who are critical - even most of those who are supporters of President Bush are critical of his policy on something. But there's a difference between being critical, disagreeing, opposing etc. and the kind of comment that has been made, and which I'm objecting to.

ceilirose · 04-11-2004, 01:39 PM

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Originally posted by Enigma, I.C.:
I think it's pretty pointless at this time to point fingers about who could have done what when where. What's done is done and all we can do is move forward, hopefully having learned from our past mistakes.

I agree with you to a point. The Administration however does need to learn from past mistakes but from their attitude that everything that could be done was done...well I think they have blinders on to an extent.

There seems to have been enough information out there to know that something was going on but what it was going to be and when it was going to happen just didn't seem to fall into place. Hopefully they can learn from all this.

Abducted Bookworm - my previous post stands.

Avatar · 04-11-2004, 01:42 PM

More reasonably uninteresting Monday morning quarterbacking - I think people should focus more on how Bush have fumbled the ball after 11/9 (I am European, will spell it the European way). 11/9 was an act of madmen - there's nothing Bush or Clinton could have done to stop it. And I don't see how they could have tried to do so without being engaging in racial profiling and thus being brandished as racists.

That being said, what I think is baffling is how some people is insistant of drawing anti-Americanism and/or anti-semitism into every discussion on this board. Anti-semitism is a serious problem - brandishing all objectional comments as being anti-semitic wouldn't help anyone. And you're not anti-American just because you believe and share crazy conspiracy theories.

Enigma, I.C. · 04-11-2004, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ceilirose:


The Administration however does need to learn from past mistakes but from their attitude that everything that could be done was done...well I think they have blinders on to an extent.

There seems to have been enough information out there to know that something was going on but what it was going to be and when it was going to happen just didn't seem to fall into place. Hopefully they can learn from all this.

Oh I agree. I think the best thing the Bush administration could do at this point is apologize to the families of the victims and publicly admit that it was it could have taken the warnings more seriously. I don't think that's unreasonable. But such statements will not be forthcoming.