News & Politics - Right to Bear Arms (Conceal Carry Permits) Discussion

Wildfire Girl · 03-24-2010, 07:20 AM

I saw this article today and thought it was a very interesting topic to discuss. Seeing as how I have a conceal carry permit and carry a gun, using my 'right to bear arms'. I was just wondeirng everyone's thoughts on all this.

Record numbers now licensed to pack heat - Life- msnbc.com

Quote:

Waving a chromed semiautomatic pistol, the robber pushed into the building in the bustling Five Points neighborhood of Columbia, S.C., just before 11 p.m. on April 11, 2009. “Gimme what you got!” he yelled, his gun hand trembling.

Attorney Jim Corley was one of four people in the room, the lounge area of a 12-step recovery group’s meeting hall. “He said, ‘Give me your wallet,’” Corley recalled. “So I reached around to my back pocket and gave him what was there.”

Unfortunately for the gunman, later identified as Kayson Helms, 18, of Edison, N.J., that was Corley’s tiny Kel-Tec .32, hidden in a wallet holster and loaded with a half-dozen hollow points. Corley fired once into the robber’s abdomen. The young man turned. Corley fired twice more, hitting him in the neck and again in the torso. Helms ran into the night and collapsed to die on a railroad embankment 100 feet away.

Reports filed by officers who arrived at the scene a short time later called it an “exceptionally clear” case of justifiable homicide. Following South Carolina’s “Castle Doctrine,” which allows the use of deadly force in self-defense, police did not arrest Corley. They did not interrogate him. Corley was offered the opportunity to make a voluntary statement, which he did.

Helms’ friends and relatives were left to mourn, barred by the same Castle Doctrine from filing a civil lawsuit.

Jim Corley became an unintentional spokesman for a burgeoning movement of millions of Americans who secretly and legally pack pistols in waistbands, under jackets, strapped to ankles, stashed in purses or — like Corley — tucked in hip pockets.

From its beginnings in the 1980s, the “right-to-carry” movement has succeeded in boosting the number of licensed concealed-gun carriers from fewer than 1 million to about 6 million today, according to estimates from gun-rights groups that are supported by msnbc.com’s research. And while hotly debated, the effect of this dramatic increase is largely unknown.

Gun enthusiasts claim a link between more private citizens carrying concealed weapons and the nation’s dramatic decrease in violent crime. Gun-control activists argue that concealed-carry permits are being handed out to people who should never get them, sometimes resulting in tragic, needless shootings.

Effect on crime is hotly debated
But even with the push to expand concealed-carry rights now in its third decade, no scientific studies have reached any widely accepted conclusions about the movement’s effect on crime or personal safety.

Statistics from the national Centers for Disease Control do indicate that the murder and mayhem predicted by many opponents of concealed-carry laws have not come to pass. But even that point, while celebrated by gun-rights activists and conceded by some concealed-carry opponents, is disputed by others.

Both sides do agree on one thing: More Americans than ever are carrying hidden guns.

Firearms laws have been growing more relaxed across the United States for years. Gun-control activists have failed in efforts to re-enact the nationwide ban on certain semiautomatic rifles they call “assault weapons.” They were unable to block a change in federal law, signed by President Obama this year, which allows guns to be carried in national parks. And they watched in dismay as the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June 2008 that the Second Amendment grants residents of Washington, D.C., the right to own and keep loaded handguns in their homes.

“We’ve had a very good run,” said Andrew Arulanandam, chief spokesman for the 4 million-member National Rifle Association, the nation’s largest and most powerful voice for gun rights.

It’s a run that has often been paced by the work of the NRA and its allies on concealed-weapons laws.

In a little more than 20 years, the concealed-carry movement has won changes in scores of laws across the nation to boost from nine to 37 the number of “shall issue” states in which civilians must be given concealed-carry permits, known as CCWs, generally if they are 21 or older, do not have a criminal record and are willing to submit to fingerprinting and a background check. In two more states, Alaska and Vermont, most adults may carry concealed handguns without obtaining permits.

The movement's successes have energized some gun-rights activists to push for laws that further increase their ability to carry weapons, even when those laws trump private property and states’ rights.

The reasons for the push to loosen concealed carry laws are themselves open to debate.

Kristen Rand, legislative director for the Violence Policy Center, a gun-control group, said the movement “has to do with selling more guns.” While it was pushed by groups like the NRA, it also “dovetailed with the gun industry’s desperate need to find a new market.”

“Their efforts at reaching out to minorities and women have failed,” said Rand, whose group advocates banning and confiscating all handguns and some rifles but believes sporting rifles and shotguns should remain legal. “The industry constantly has to look for a way to make a guy who already owns 15 guns buy a new one.”

Map of state by state allowances to get conceal carry permits

State-by-state map of concealed-gun laws - Life- msnbc.com

**sunnykerr** · 03-24-2010, 07:33 PM

I guess I'll break the ice.

Guns freak the freaking hell out of me, so it'll come as no surprise that I don't believe civilians should have the right to carry concealed weapons.

Here is one case where it might have saved a life, maybe. If you don't take into account that an 18-year-old kid is dead. But without proper training, and not just in marksmanship, but in when and how to use that weapon, I can only imagine that it does far more damage than it creates happy endings.

The idea that the person next to me could be carrying something so inherently dangerous... Well, I'm very grateful that I don't have to live like that.

Wildfire Girl · 03-25-2010, 08:41 AM

Apparantly no one wants to start the discussion.

So Sunny, then the right to bear arms isn't something Canada has?

I guess being raised around guns, being trained in how to handle and shoot guns, I don't mind. I feel SAFE knowing I can carry one, and do.

**sunnykerr** · 03-25-2010, 06:37 PM

Oh, no. There is as much gun ownership in Canada as there is in the United States. But, as far as I know, it's a lot of shotguns or other hunting riffles.

The ownership of... I don't know, guns whose sole purpose are to injure or kill human beings... is also present. But, as far as I know, it's subject to the Firearms Act, which demands rigorous examinations and basically, justification for ownership. So the people who would own those types of weapons, as far as I know, are policemen and women, members of the armed forces, bodyguards maybe...

Oh, and, of course, street gangs and the mafia, I suppose. But my point is that gun ownership just isn't an everyday thing. And I grew up in the country. My neighbour had a riffle of some sort, since he used to shoot it at the crows on his land, but that's the only gun I've ever seen that wasn't in the possession of a police officer.

Wildfire Girl · 03-27-2010, 03:58 PM

Gun ownership here is I guess, especially in the south where I live.

**sunnykerr** · 03-27-2010, 04:28 PM

And that's something that I totally respect. I truly do. I would never presume to tell anyone else how to run their lives, let alone a whole nation.

But, truth be told, the whole 2nd Amendment, gun culture, aspect of the United States is one of the things that freak me out just little bit about the country.

I can understand why it was put into the Constitution. I really can. When that document was drafted, the United States had just had to form a militia in order to fight for their freedom from Britain. Not to mention that houses were usually very far apart from one another and that a lot of wild and potentially dangerous beasts still roamed free in many regions of the country. And then, of course, there was the possibility, I presume, of running afoul of brigands and criminals at a time when police forces were not organized.

So it makes total sense to me that private ownership of weapons would make sense at the time.

But we're living in different times. There's the democratic process now. Police forces are there to protect the citizens. And, more importantly perhaps, we've gone from weapons who took very long to load only to cause limited damages when they hit their target to guns that pierce body armor and don't need any reloading.

To me, it has stopped making stopped making sense.

Wildfire Girl · 03-27-2010, 04:59 PM

There are certain areas though where it IS ILLEGAL to carry a gun. The 'big modern' states as I call them.

**sunnykerr** · 03-27-2010, 05:27 PM

Well, obviously, I think that's a great idea.

I've heard the argument before that guns should be legal (this was from an American friend of mine) because you know criminals have them and you have to be able to defend yourself.

And I'm not really one to say how far one should or should not go in terms of planning for a potential situation where they might face imminent danger. I just don't think that adjusting the law to criminal behaviour is the way to go.

Wildfire Girl · 03-29-2010, 04:28 PM

I understand where you are coming from.

I like having mine, knowing I feel safer. I even have a small one that fits in my pocket and I often carry it at night when I'm at work, when I do my evening programs once a month.

**sunnykerr** · 03-29-2010, 08:24 PM

Well, you're working outside, at night, and there may be animals (I'm assuming, given your line of work), so I can't say that I blame you in the least bit.

See, I've walked the street of Montreal (population 2+ millions) at every hour of the night, and not in the nicest of neighbourhoods (though definitely not in the worse either) and I've never felt in danger.

But it's two different worlds, so I'm not really changing my mind for my own life and circumstances, but I would never presume I know what's best for someone else either.

Wildfire Girl · 04-07-2010, 06:49 PM

Yeah, animals are a possibility ... guess I'm more concerned about drunk fishermen than the critters though.

**sunnykerr** · 04-09-2010, 05:45 PM

Do you get many drunkards out there?

I know we do in Montreal. But, you know, they're harmless. Annoying and creepy (did I ever tell you that I'm, like, catnip to 60-year-old drunk me?), but harmless in the end.

Wildfire Girl · 04-10-2010, 05:51 PM

Yep.

I mean not a ton, but many times I run into a few at the evening programs. Thankfully I only do those once a month.

Had two drunk ladies and a drunk man at my event last night. Joy of joys. But I had my gun in my jacket pocket so no worries.

TheAngel · 04-14-2010, 04:28 AM

I live in the US and I really don't feel unsafe here. I think there's this kind of myth outside the country that everyone here carries guns and it's like the Wild West and everyone's shooting all over the place but I feel safe in most places. I wouldn't go to New York's inner city or some places, but that has little to do with a fear of gun violence and more of a fear of physical violence or being accosted. I've never had anyone pull a gun on me, or seen anyone pull a gun, but it is a reality of living here. It doesn't make me afraid, though. Maybe it's because I've grown up in this environment but I have a gun that I don't carry but I keep at home in my bedside table. It's nice to know that I can protect what's mine and keep it safe, being a woman living alone, if someone decides to break into my home.
There's been a lot of talk in the US about gun trades or gun control, but I don't think it's feasible here, and not because of the good people who have guns here, but because of the bad. I'm a law-abiding citizen. Sure, I'd turn in my gun, but the criminals wouldn't. And then, if someone comes after me, how would I protect myself. I'm 5'4 and 120lbs. I can do a surprising amount of damage, but not in all situations and a bullet can do a lot more. If someone gives me an ultimatum, where either I'm going home or they are, then I'm happy to have the ability to defend myself if necessary. But so far, it's never been necessary and the majority of people in the US will never even shoot their guns. We have far more gun-related suicides than homicides here in the US and I'm really not scared to be outside on my own at night in most places.

Wildfire Girl · 04-14-2010, 04:45 PM

Glad to have your input.

Yeah guess I'd better make it clear that I certainly don't 'fear' for my safety, with or without the gun. I just LIKE to carry a gun. It's extra assurance I guess. It feels RIGHT, and I feel like it is my right to carry it, so I like using that right. Does that make sense?


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