Raonaild

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5043408.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5054198.stm

Am I more afraid this week than last? No. There have always been crazy, extreme people in this world prepared to do terrible things.

*Ledi*

I've been reading about this ever since I found out the other day. It makes me really angry.

Maggie aka Sarah

Makes me very very angry... and sad at the same time.

Lain

Okay, I believe in human rights but to a certain extent (if this is dealing with human rights)

Scary though. Suppose if this attack actually carried out?

Lexis

We had a terror raid here last Friday during which time one of the suspects was shot in the shoulder - now his lawyer is going on about how her client was mistreated. I'm sorry, it appears that the police had intlligence that chemical bomb materials were in the house - what were they supposed to do, ask if the dude wouldn't mind sitting down and drinking a cup of tea?

In situations where there is a real threat, of course the police need to go in with force. These Canadian guys (if these alllegations are true) got better treatment than what they were planning to do to innocent people.

UnsilentMajorty

This ties directly in with what I posted in This Thread.

Many terrorists like to use an open society's judicial system against itself as another slap-in-the-face and because it becomes a distraction by lulling the society into a false sense of security while the sleeper cells who were not caught in the raid(s) continue on with their plans.

Also, it should be noted, it was reported these are not members of Al-Queda, or have any affiliation with Osama Bin Laden.

The Toronto group is what is called a Splinter Cell of Islamic Extremists which is exactly what Bin Laden wanted after 9/11; 9/11 showed terrorists what could be done with proper planning and execution and then lets it inspire splinter cells like this one to try the same. Bin Laden is winning this war because he is a lot smarter than a lot of the Western and European governments give him credit for and this kind of indirect action proves it... Regardless, if they managed to carry out the attacks or not.

silver lining

Exactly! I'm finding all the coverage of the raid so irritating because everyone is being so critical of the police. The had to act if they had intelligence, it's not like they acted on a whim and thought "Oh this is a great idea, let's break into this house and shoot someone just for the hell of it". You can't win, one the one hand the public expect to be protected from terrorists, on the other they bitch and whine when the police try and do their job.

UnsilentMajorty

It should be noted the ones who are complaining are family and Musilm/Islamic community leaders and not the general public.

While this may not surprise anyone, you have to consider who is making these allegations and complaints and again, it what I said above about these people using the system of jurance prudence against the very country they are trying to attack.

It should also be noted most police forces are trained to use deadly physical force (discharing a weapon) as a last resort. The man in the UK who was shot in the shoulder should consider himself lucky to be alive considering most police and military train to shoot at center mass (the chest) which if he wasn't wearing body armor, he would most likely be dead now.

Contrary to all the Hollywood movies and TV shows, cops just don't bust down doors and go in guns 'a blazin' like they portray. In the real world, whenever a weapon is discharged there are investigations, interviews and tons of official paper work to make sure the use of deadly physical force was justified because if it was not this is where legitimate complaints of police brutality come into play because it would be a violation of the ROE (Rules of Engagement) set for the raid/operation.

Raonaild

Well, I've obviously been watching different news coverage because the reports I've seen haven't been particularly critical of the police.

Not that they can't be criticized. I'm glad the police and CSIS were vigilant and found these guys out before they could do any harm, but that doesn't make them above criticism. Similarly, I do not have a problem with these defence lawyers complaining about their clients' treatment ... they may be wrong, but I think it's important that the law and rights are not just cast aside in the face of terrorism.

Lexis

I feel sorry for the officers. Last year, there was a terrible mistake and an innocent man was shot a few days after the failed attempt to blow up three trains and a bus in July (which occured just a two weeks after the July 7 bombings). Now this...being an armed officer is a difficult dangerous job and often, they aren't allowed to speak in their own defence as the incident is probed.

Criticism of police actions is fine and the lawyer of course has the right to put her clients side of the story. What bothers me is a more general concern that the idea that police should take a more softly softly approach in these kind of raids will become accepted. I really think that when police intelligence indicates a possible chemical bomb in a residential area, there really isn't much of a choice but to go in hard and fast.

UnsilentMajorty

In taking down a cell like this the first and foremost priority of most law enforcement is to protect the public at large before, during and after the raid. The decision to go ahead was given once all the variables and "what ifs?" had been hashed out (What if they try and set off the chemical bomb? What if they grab hostages off the street? What if they try and flee and a chase, in vehicles or on foot, through crowded urban streets ensues? etc, etc.).

This is why I consider these and other newsworthy raids "safe" raids as they are the ones where there was most likely undeniable proof these guys had means, motive and opportunity to carry out their attacks if they had not been stopped. This is just common legal sense and it goes a long way in helping send the message to the (would-be) terrorists that something like 9/11, and 7/7, will never happen again as long as the free world is on constant watch.

What you don't hear about are the smaller raids which aren't as safe and are often weighed as the "lesser of two evils" and how it will effect the overall war on terror in the long run. Such operations are basically when law enforcement and even military special forces (Delta Force; SAS; GIGN; etc.) decide to disrupt the terror network by grabbing or eliminating key figures such as money launders, drug lords and middle-men who fund and actually get the terrorists the equipment they use. The reason these are "the lesser of two evils" is there is one less terrorist supporter to help plan and execute another 9/11... But at the same time, by eliminating this individual the risk is law enforcement has played its hand which often causes the higher-ups in the network like Bin Laden to go underground which is one less opportunity to nab him and others like him. You don't hear about these kinds of raids because not only are most done in secret, but also because they aren't as black-and-white as far as public opinion is concerned for the reasons I stated above.

Also, it should be noted, this war on terror is going to be fought in the urban cities of the world and not in the open battle fields of Iraq, or Afghanistan contrary to what Bush and other so-called experts tell you.

The reason is obvious. Terrorist attacks target major urban population centers and thus, to plan and execute these attacks terrorists need to study and be around their potential targets.

This is why law enforcement and especially military special forces are trained in what is called CQB (Close Quaters Battle) -- Room-to-Room fighting -- Just like the raid in Toronto most likey ressembled (even though no shots were fired).

CQB has a unique set of strategies and is entirely different from battling on an open battlefield that stretches for miles. Not only is it tighter quarters, but the chance for innocent civilians to be taken hostage and/or wounded in the crossfire greaty increases 10 fold when you are talking about any major city around the world and there is also greater threat of 360 degrees... Including above and below... Of possible enemy fire for law enforcement to deal with when they conduct CQB operations like the Toronto raid.

The reason I went into detail about this is because I feel everyone reading should have a realistic view of how and what the war on terror is really like... Because it is not on the battlefields of Iraq, as the nightly news and propaganda pieces would have you believe. Not to frighten everyone, but terrorists could be living/working next door and this is a new kind of enemy we are having to learn how to fight (which is why CQB has become the focus for most law enforcement and special forces around the world) given the "battlefield" is our own backyards, both proverbially and literally.

In addition, a terrorist isn't just a man with a beard, dark skin and a turban who is an Islamic or Muslim extremist. In the U.S., there are home grown (domestic) terrorists similar to Timothy McVeigh who are part of the fringe militia/anti-government movement as well as White Supremecists (Neo-Nazi) and even the disgruntled office worker who goes on a shooting rampage and the disturbed teen who shoots up his school like Collumbine are also considered terrorists. In other words, terrorists don't have to be politically motivated and why they do what they do is as varied as they are... But knowing about the various kinds of terrorists should help make you more aware and ultimately, more safe in the long run if you do see or suspect something suspicious.

sum1

Hear hear!

Jen Jaree

Gosh. I think it would be a big shock to the world if Toronto, or even a rural town in Saskatewan got hit with a 9/11 like attack because Canada is known for being a peace keeping country.

I do think because of that we may be vulnerable to an attack (not that I want it to happen), because we don't have a big military. We have had the FLQ in the 60's and early 70's, which were a national terrorist group.

Canadian comedians have made jokes about that such as West Edmonton Mall having more submarines than our Navy. My favorite is that one said we should just invade cause no one would believe it the UN would say Canada yeah right.