News & Politics - Affirmative action

Lexis · 01-25-2007, 12:49 PM

The topic of affirmative action came up on another thread so I thought I'd start a seperate thread to discuss it.

So what is your opinion of affirmative action? Is it simply righting a wrong or just plain unfair?

Jacob1983 · 01-25-2007, 01:09 PM

Affirmative action is flat out wrong and definately unfair. It basically promotes racism if you think about it. It tries to balance out everything by using present racism to make up for racism in the past.
I definately don't support affirmative action because it's not equal and that is a fact. The only type of affirmative action that I would ever possibly support is it when it deals with money.
Minorities are not slaves anymore well at least not in America and they should not be given handouts because of what their ancestors went through.
I am sure that I could do some research and find out that my ancestors were a long long long time ago were slaves but does that mean I should be given a handout because of what happened to them? And please don't tell me that white people have it so freakin good and easy.
America is not divided by race at least not as not as much as we used to be. I'd say that America is more divided when it comes to wealth and money.

ceilirose · 01-25-2007, 01:34 PM

Affirmative action came about in part because the civil rights laws passed in the 60's weren't being followed to the letter of the law. It's one thing to say everyone has to be treated fairly but human beings being what they are - it's hard to put into practice.

I guess you could say that if people had followed the laws of the land then affirmative action may never have come into existence.

Also I think America is still very much divided by race. The comments I've heard about Obama and whether he is really black, etc., etc. etc. shows how very little we as a country have come. Also the attention that has been given to Nancy Pelosi's wardrobe has been just comical. Were Denny Hastert's suits discussed this much?

S.A.S.H.A. · 01-25-2007, 06:49 PM

I'm on Ward Connerly's side.

Sasha

rose parade · 01-25-2007, 06:55 PM

I've seen racist posts on this very board, just yesterday. So yeah, the idea that racism doesn't exist anymore is obsurd.

elisheva · 01-25-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.A.S.H.A. (View Post)

I'm on Ward Connerly's side.

Sasha

Wow, I have so many issues with that article I barely know where to start:

Quote:

Connerly said 209’s opponents point to the need to increase diversity. “When you have 15 or 16 languages spoken at UC Berkeley, I think you’ve got a lot of diversity,” Connerly said.

Yup, so all done here. Nothing left to do. Nope.

Quote:

The key to increasing UC minority representation is not lowering the bar, but bringing students up to the existing requirements, Connerly argued. Such an effort would require the cooperation of students’ families, who would have to go back to the basics, encouraging their kids to read and providing a solid foundation for their education, he said.

How are people "lowering the bar"? And this kind of thing is basically saying "It's THEIR problem and WE have nothing to do with it, so we don't have to lift a finger or change anything. Nope. All THEIR responsibility."

Quote:

“I’d rather see 94 black kids at UCLA who have earned the right to be there who don’t have a cloud over their head than 135 with all of them there being suspect,” said Connerly, who added that the whole issue boiled down to fairness.

Yes, because anyone in college thanks to an affirmative action-based scholarship clearly hasn't earned the right. And if we do have affirmative action, then all minority students are probably only in college because of that!

Quote:

“I don’t believe it’s productive for us to be sending many of these kids to a four-, five- or six-year consignment to a campus when they’re really not ready to make productive use of the $13,000-per-year-per-student subsidy that the people of California make to the UC system,” he said. “Many of these kids are wasting their time, wasting our time and wasting our money.”

Darn minority kids, wasting our money when everyone knows they have no real reason to be here. Rich kids whose parents pay their way through obviously value their education so much more.

Quote:

“We have a tremendous problem of trying to assimilate people from all around the globe into our country, especially into California, and make some sense of it,” he said. “In southern California you can drive for miles and miles and not have English spoken. It’s pretty hard to create a civilized society, where language is the currency of that society, when people don’t speak the same language.”

Apparently how civilized a place is is determined by whether they speak English. Good to know.

Quote:

“It affects St. Helena because a lot of our kids go to UC colleges,” she said. “They should have a fair chance of getting into college, and not be shoved down because someone else who is a minority takes their place. And it’s really cruel to minorities because frequently they get in over their heads and when they don’t succeed at UC they don’t get the opportunity to go somewhere else.”

How dare they take our places! Don't they know the American dream is only for US? And hey, it's too good for them anyway - they can't handle the pressure and high academic level the way our kids can. We should help them. Help them become plumbers.

ceilirose · 01-25-2007, 10:05 PM

It seems Ward is a bit of a hypocrite too:

Ward Connerly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

On May 8, 1995, two years after he went public with his anti-affirmative action views, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that Connerly had taken advantage of a minority preference program on multiple occasions in the 1990's. The article was based on the paper's review of the records of California's State Energy Commission which showed that Connerly had listed his firm, Connerly & Associates as a minority-owned firm and that Connerly's firm received more than $1 million in state government contracts by registering his firm as minority-owned with the Commission's minority preference program. The article included excerpts of an interview with Connerly in which he admitted that he participated in the Commission's minority preference program, so as to continue doing business with the State without being forced to give away 15 percent of his firm's contract to another business solely on the basis of the owner's state registered racial classification.

As Connerly pointed out in a story published by the Associated Press on May 9, 1995, due to the state law's requirement that 15 percent of state contracts be given to minority-owned firms, he would have been placed in the position of having "to find a minority to turn over 15 percent of a contract which has an 8 percent profit at best." [4]

The almighty dollar wins again.

mild toxicity · 01-26-2007, 12:24 AM

Honestly, I think they should just take the race check box off applications of all kinds. Race should never be a factor in anything IMO. 50 years ago it wasn't fair that minorities had been denied the right to attend prestigious schools. But today it isn't fair that two candidates of equal merit have to depend on race (which can't be controlled) to decide who will progress.

I just think it's just as counterproductive as it is productive.

For the record, affirmative action does not give a minority an upper hand unless he or she has all the accolades of an equally qualified Caucasian. Only then is race the deciding factor. Just in case anyone was confused.

Even still, I don't think something as major as an occupation or education should ever come down to race. But affirmative action isn't quite as unfair as certain other things.

Don't even get me started on National Achievement. A minority gets a scholarship with lower standardized test scores than me? Unacceptable. No scholarship or selection process should ever change the standards for a specific race. It's unfair, not to mention insulting to whichever race had the lower standards.

Some may call me racist for not believing in AA, but I don't really care what they think. I think that argument is lame. And I'm generally a liberal person.

sum1 · 01-26-2007, 04:47 AM

Affirmative action is a difficult topic. It's right sometimes and wrong other times and ultimately it's a bad means to a good end.

Lexis · 01-26-2007, 06:51 AM

I think I'm with sum1 on this. I simply don't think there is another way just yet to ensure we get proper representation for all.

Jacob1983 · 01-26-2007, 07:50 AM

There will never be a way to make it where everyone is treatd faily and equal. I know thats pessimistic but it's the truth. If everyone gets treated the same especially with money, then you have borderline communism in my opinion.

I don't like the fact that I can't get a scholarship based on my race since I'm white while minorities can. That's not right.

Affirmative action is racist and I wish that more people would wake up and realize it.

**sunnykerr** · 01-26-2007, 08:04 AM

Well, of course affirmative action is "racist." It's restorative justice for the wrongs done to minority racial groups on behalf of the Caucasian majority. If we, white folk, had been systematically and institutionally discriminated against for generations upon generations, then we too would be entitled to a little institutional payback. But we weren't, so it doesn't apply to us. The whole point is to try and redress almost centuries of wrongdoings done on our behalf.

And I'm with sum1 on this one, too. I don't think affirmative action should every be judged wholesale. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it goes overboard. But that means we need to be more careful in administering it, not that it should be completely abandoned as a practice.

As for scholarships... I don't know how they work any other place than the universities I've attended, but, within the limits of that knowledge, I wasn't aware that white people were completely incapable of getting one. Both universities had a multiplicity of scholarships based on any manner of criteria. Yes, there were scholarships specific to African-Americans or Native Americans. But there were math scholarships, civic-involvement scholarships, religious-involvement scholarships, grade-based scholarships, social-class-based scholarships...

Heck, I got a scholarship to attend the first university I went to, and that was based on my grade-point average. Not my age. Not my residential status. Not my marital status. Not my gender. And certainly not my race.

Dark Half Undine · 01-26-2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mild toxicity (View Post)

Honestly, I think they should just take the race check box off applications of all kinds. Race should never be a factor in anything IMO. 50 years ago it wasn't fair that minorities had been denied the right to attend prestigious schools. But today it isn't fair that two candidates of equal merit have to depend on race (which can't be controlled) to decide who will progress.

I just think it's just as counterproductive as it is productive.

For the record, affirmative action does not give a minority an upper hand unless he or she has all the accolades of an equally qualified Caucasian. Only then is race the deciding factor. Just in case anyone was confused.

Even still, I don't think something as major as an occupation or education should ever come down to race. But affirmative action isn't quite as unfair as certain other things.

Don't even get me started on National Achievement. A minority gets a scholarship with lower standardized test scores than me? Unacceptable. No scholarship or selection process should ever change the standards for a specific race. It's unfair, not to mention insulting to whichever race had the lower standards.

Some may call me racist for not believing in AA, but I don't really care what they think. I think that argument is lame. And I'm generally a liberal person.

I agree that the race box should be taken off paper applications when it is the only required in a process to get the job or the oppurtunity but what about a personal interview?

As sad as it seems I just don't think we've reached far enough to ensure that everyone is getting a fair shot whether quailified or not.

We have to be very careful.

rose parade · 01-26-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

I don't like the fact that I can't get a scholarship based on my race since I'm white while minorities can. That's not right.

I am white and I have received scholarships. One to an art school, and one because of sports. The idea that because you are white is the ONLY reason you aren't getting scholarships is a bit obsurd. What distinguishes you as a student? By this logic the whole scholarship program is discriminatory. Why should someone who is athletic be given a scholarship versus someone who doesn't play sports? An artistic person versus someone not artistically inclined? Someone who gets high test scores, valedictorians, those who show extreme leadership, those who excel in a vocational trade, ect.

I know there's no 'WHITE person scholarship', but I don't believe that minorities are keeping you from getting a scholarship, I honestly don't.

mild toxicity · 01-26-2007, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prayforandrew (View Post)

I am white and I have received scholarships. One to an art school, and one because of sports. The idea that because you are white is the ONLY reason you aren't getting scholarships is a bit obsurd. What distinguishes you as a student? By this logic the whole scholarship program is discriminatory. Why should someone who is athletic be given a scholarship versus someone who doesn't play sports? An artistic person versus someone not artistically inclined? Someone who gets high test scores, valedictorians, those who show extreme leadership, those who excel in a vocational trade, ect.

I know there's no 'WHITE person scholarship', but I don't believe that minorities are keeping you from getting a scholarship, I honestly don't.

I'm white and I received a full ride plus a stipend. That's not the point. I had to get very high test scores and keep a 4.3 GPA to get that. And even still I got less money than some of my classmates who didn't have near those credentials. It's simply unfair. When have two wrongs made a right in any other situation?

I completely supported Affirmative Action back when it was desperately needed. However, I honestly don't believe that is the case any longer.

Also, there is a difference between using race as a distinguishing factor for an applicant and using other criteria. The other criteria you listed are all (more or less) influenced by free will. With enough effort, most people can make high test scores or become more skillfull at a sport. However, no amount of effort can change race. In my opinion that means it should never be used as a benefit or a detriment.

YMMV

What we need are more scholarships geared towards financial status. If, say, a poor white student and a wealthy minority student (or vice versa) are equally qualified, then the poor student needs to be helped first. That isn't completely fair either, but it does help level the socioeconomic playing field, which is where the majority of inequality rests in modern society IMO. Obviously, it's a lot easier for a rich student to make excellent marks in school than it is for a poor student who also has to hold down a job. Things like that need to be considered more often IMO because personal life hardships, not race, determine whether or not you have been handicapped in the application process.