News & Politics - The abortion debate - Page 5

m&m fkan · 12-17-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetch (View Post)

But... the Bible doesn't talk about abortion or a woman terminating her own pregnancy.

The bible doesn't need to talk about women killing their own infants.

All killing is wrong, according to the bible, regardless of who is doing the killing.

fetch · 12-17-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m&m fkan (View Post)

The bible doesn't need to talk about women killing their own infants.

All killing is wrong, according to the bible, regardless of who is doing the killing.

Ummm, that's not true. According to the Bible, you HAVE to kill someone who has sinned, even if it's your own parents or children. God killed everyone but Noah and his family in the flood. He killed all of Sodom and Gomorra. He killed the Egyptians firstborns when they refused to free the Jewish people from slavery. In Numbers 25:4-9 God orders Moses to kill 24,000 Israelites.
In Kings, there are orders specfic to killing pregnant women:
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.

To name a few cases.

Anyone who works on Saturday is to be killed, as anyone who sleeps with an animal or a member of their own sex, anyone who eats shellfish, and anyone who does not believe in God and goes against God's rules.

migamoo · 12-17-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m&m fkan (View Post)

All killing is wrong, according to the bible, regardless of who is doing the killing.

Then why did the Hebrews give burnt offerings? If all killing is wrong, why kill animals for food or harvest grain for food? It's killing, isn't it?

Gean · 12-18-2007, 04:40 PM

Abortion is murder, and murder or killing is a crime according to the Ten Commandments.

**sunnykerr** · 12-18-2007, 07:48 PM

Last night I saw this really interesting Christiana Amanpour documentary. Well, I saw part of it. She did a six-hour special on "Warriors for God," looking at Jewish, Muslim and Christian fundamentalism. I had already seen the Jewish and Muslim parts and bits of the Christian part, too. Last night, I saw the rest of the Christian part.

And there was a pastor there who I thought was bang on. Now, I'm not Christian myself, so feel free to point that out as a flaw in my appreciation of this self-described conservative, fundamentalist Christian pastor, but I dug him.

He basically said that abortion is a sin. So is homosexuality. But, then again, according to the Bible, so is greed and glutonny. And anger. And it's not like there's a scale. Not one of them is more important than the other.

And, this is this pastor talking again, if we look at the message of the Bible, which is to love your neighbour, then we should really think about our own sins before we cast aspersions on that of others.

So, (again, him), turning to politics. If a pastor were to encourage his congregation to vote for a particular party or a particular candidate (which this guy won't do, because Jesus never talked politics and it's his goal to aspire to be as close to Jesus as he can), and if we look at the studies done on things such as the relationship between poverty and abortions... wouldn't it make sense to back a politician who had a solid plan to combat poverty?

Back to me now. To me, that would certainly make more sense than saying abortion is wrong because the Bible says so.

fetch · 12-19-2007, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gean (View Post)

Abortion is murder, and murder or killing is a crime according to the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandements say Thou Shall Not Kill. It doesn't say "not even a fetus". In Thou Shall Not Steal, it specifies that you are not allowed to steal anything, whether it is a house, money, or someone's wife.
But nowhere in the Bible does it say outright that abortion is murder

On the other hand, Exodus 21:22-25 shows a difference in the punishment for the accidental murder of a pregnant women, and an injury of hers which would bring to an accidental miscarriege:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--

When the women dies, the man who struck the blow must pay eye for eye - he must be killed as he killed the woman.
But when the woman is injured and miscaries, there is no eye for eye. The man must pay a fine that the woman and her husband decide according to how far along in her pregnancy she was, for the time it will take to get pregnant again.
If a fetus was counted as a full life, and as important as the woman's life, both cases would be punished eye for eye, life for life.

Abortion is murder if you consider afetus a life. In this case we ca see the Bible does not.

Isaiah 13:18 says: They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

2 Kings:
dash their children, and rip up their women with child.

all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.

And on and on.

If abortion was considered a sin in the Bible, God would not say to have no mercy on the fruit of the womb. Someone forcing a woman to miscarry would be punished the same as if he had killed the woman. The Ten Commadments would be more specfic as it has in the cases of stealing. Or it would be repeated again in the rest of Bible.
The word abortion does not appear ONCE in the Bible, nor the case of a woman aborting her pregnancy. If it was so important, it would appear again, as anyone disobeyign the Sabbath appears at least 10 times.

*Ledi* · 12-19-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gean (View Post)

Abortion is murder, and murder or killing is a crime according to the Ten Commandments.

It can't be murder if no ill intent is present.

From dictionary.com:

mur·der /ˈmɜrdər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

But who cares anyway? Not everyone is religious, so I personally couldn't care less about what the Ten Commandments say. Thus, I should not have to follow them.

m&m fkan · 12-20-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fieryangel (View Post)

Then why did the Hebrews give burnt offerings? If all killing is wrong, why kill animals for food or harvest grain for food? It's killing, isn't it?

Killing of HUMANS. animals do not have souls.

fetch · 12-20-2007, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m&m fkan (View Post)

Killing of HUMANS. animals do not have souls.

Actually the bible says people who are vegetarions are more moral, but God lets it slide because he knows not everyone can pass up on meat.

But.. nothing on my post where I show the Bible doesn't consider the unborn living?

migamoo · 12-20-2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m&m fkan (View Post)

Killing of HUMANS. animals do not have souls.

I think the last is debatable, and for another thread. But, you did say, "All killing is wrong, according to the bible, regardless of who is doing the killing." You did not specify human over whatever.

**TheAngel** · 12-20-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetch (View Post)

Actually the bible says people who are begetarions are more moral, but God lets it slide because he knows not everyone can pass up on meat.

But.. nothing on my post where I show the Bible doesn't consider the unborn living?

Silly rabbit...facts are for logical people.
The abortion debate is rediculous anyway because most of the people against abortion use religion to back their anti-abortion stand. Religious beliefs vary amongst the population. I don't think any Christian wants to be forced to have an abortion just as no woman should have the right to decide taken away from her. If you don't agree with abortion then don't have one, adopt several children, and live in your own idealistic world where condoms never break, birth control never fails, and people never make mistakes.

**sunnykerr** · 12-20-2007, 07:44 PM

Amen!

fetch · 12-21-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAngel (View Post)

Silly rabbit...facts are for logical people.
The abortion debate is rediculous anyway because most of the people against abortion use religion to back their anti-abortion stand. Religious beliefs vary amongst the population. I don't think any Christian wants to be forced to have an abortion just as no woman should have the right to decide taken away from her. If you don't agree with abortion then don't have one, adopt several children, and live in your own idealistic world where condoms never break, birth control never fails, and people never make mistakes.

But that what's so absurd. People use religon to explain their reasons why abortion should be illegal but... the Bible never says anything against abortion

You'd think if you're living your whole life according to one book, you'd make sure you knew it really well, no?

**TheAngel** · 12-21-2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetch (View Post)

But that what's so absurd. People use religon to explain their reasons why abortion should be illegal but... the Bible never says anything against abortion

You'd think if you're living your whole life according to one book, you'd make sure you knew it really well, no?

But it's always about picking and chosing. That's why I won't call myself a Christian anymore. I saw too much hypocrasy. Those same people that say homosexuality and abortion are sins because of Biblical references leave out other laws that God writes. For example, if a virgin is raped she's supposed to marry the rapist after he pays her father. Also, women are supposed to keep their hair covered at all times. Of course the Bible says, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and anyone that reads the Bible or studys it knows that Jesus died so that Christians can go to Heaven because no Christian is without sin, therefore, Christians have no right to judge homosexuals or people that have abortions because they themselves are sinners. But, alas, that's never going to happen, now is it?

sum1 · 12-21-2007, 10:57 AM

People need to get out of their head the idea that the law should follow the bible. Nations should not be run by religious law, whether it's the US or Saudi Arabia.