News & Politics - The abortion debate - Page 2

**sunnykerr** · 10-13-2007, 08:13 AM

I have to say, GrhmLz, ditto what Ledi said.

That was absolutely beautiful. And a good reminder to myself that, although we do tend to hear more from the more radical side of the 'pro-life' stance (and I put it between quotation marks to take into account your qualification to that label), that doesn't mean that all 'pro-lifers' are disrespectful to people who don't see it the same way OR completely mired in a black-and-white vision of what is moral and ethical.

So thank you so much. That was awesome.

fetch · 10-30-2007, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrhmLz (View Post)

Well, in the United States there is State law and Federal law. Roe vs. Wade was fought/won on the federal level (through U.S. Supreme Court). Generally, and this gets confusing even to American citizens, but state law supercedes within it's own state and is still free to enact its own laws. South Dakota state law appears to be attempting to challenge the federal ruling of Roe vs. wade by first passing anti-abortion legislation in its own state. Which from a liberalist perspective, can pose a serious threat to women's freedom of choice nationally. It's possible that South Dakota may be hoping to get women from their state to challenge the law on the federal level with a conservative bench intact? Then, the possibility of reversing the Roe v. Wade decision is more probable.

So they could be hoping to get sued to get to higher court?

That's... a really scary thought. Like, lose-lose; either put up with these scary laws, or face worse things if you attempt to change them.

lizzie2000 · 10-30-2007, 09:43 AM

The problem is Roe v. Wade may be getting overturned soon since we do have such a conservative bench and so many people and states are attempting to challenge it. If the law gets reserved it will be a major ruling and will affect many people throughout the country.

***4N6 DNA*** · 11-02-2007, 07:31 PM

I agree with a lot of your guy's points. It is very clear that abortion is something that will never be "solved", and many people may think so, but it is not black and white. There is no right answer and there is not simply one answer. I could never categorize myself as simply "prochoice" or "prolife". It would be atrocious to think that people have sex with abortion in mind, as a backup plan, that is why I am not 100% prochoice. I am not 100% prolife either, becasue I knoe that things are unexpected, and some things in life are impossible to control.

Personally, I think that the mere fact that there is a life and death risk to having a baby should be enough to argue that it is the womans choice whether or not to keep it. But as mentioned, the woman should be responsible and make decisions that agree with this. I agree very much with GrhmLz about if there is a consensus, it comes down to responsibility.

In a perfect world, all the decisions should be on a person by person basis. But we all know that is impossible. So for now, we are just going to have to settle with staying gre.

Many people get heated in this debate, but I really don't care which side you fall on this issue. You are free to have your own opinion. The only thing I ask is that you just be consistant with your beliefs. I know people who are against abortion but support the death penalty. You say that you value life, yet you pick and choose which type of life has value. I think that that is not right. If you don't believe in abortion, that is great but just be consistant and fight to the death to protect every law that applies. But you can't hop on top of the fence and play both sides, that is what creates the black and white areas in our grey world..

Papri · 11-03-2007, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4N6 DNA (View Post)

The only thing I ask is that you just be consistant with your beliefs. I know people who are against abortion but support the death penalty. You say that you value life, yet you pick and choose which type of life has value. I think that that is not right. If you don't believe in abortion, that is great but just be consistant and fight to the death to protect every law that applies. But you can't hop on top of the fence and play both sides, that is what creates the black and white areas in our grey world..

What about people who are anti-death penalty but pro-abortion? There are plently of people out there who hold such views. I think it's rather too simplistic to ask everyone to be consistent in their views of both issues; although both essentially are about terminating a "life" in some way or another, there are massive differences regarding the reasoning behind it, whether a foetus is even regarded as a viable "life" etc. So I suppose all I'm saying is that blurring the lines between abortion and death penalty isn't really conducive to the debate.

***4N6 DNA*** · 11-03-2007, 11:17 AM

Papri

It makes sense whyat you are saying, I agree that there is different reasoning behind everything that people believe. For instance, maybe a woman is for the death penatly but there was some event in their life that turned her against abortions particularly. You do bring up a very good point.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I think the reason you are choosing to be prochoice or prolife should be consistant. Maybe not the exact views. I feel that it is contradicting if you say "I am against abortion because life is valuable" and be pro death penalty. To me, a better argument is saying "I am prolife because I feel that a fetus is a human being already" and still support capital punishment. Am I making any sense?

I most definatly am not pointing out one side or another, I respect both sides but it is just something that makes me feel uneasy when I am discussing this issue.

elisheva · 11-03-2007, 04:35 PM

Well, I think it's possible to, for example, be against abortion if you feel that it's a life that hasn't had a chance yet, that is still innocent, whereas you could say that someone sentenced to capital punishment had a life and had a chance.

Not my way of looking at things, but I could understand that POV. I don't think it's all that helpful to try and squish the two issues together like that and I think when they are it's usually as an attack against one side ("you claim you're pro-life but you also support the death penalty"/"you care more about letting murderers live than unborn children.")

**sunnykerr** · 11-05-2007, 07:31 PM

I'm of that point of view, and I'm not saying huge parts of it aren't hypocritical, but I can make sense of it for myself.

Mind you, I personally could never have an abortion. But, to me, it boils down to an individual's right to have control over their destiny. If a person feels they absolutely have to have an abortion... it's their experience, their life, who am I to tell them they can't have one?

As for the death penalty, clearly, a person who commits a hideous crime relinquishes the right to control large aspects of their destiny. I have no problem with that. But the thing that bugs me is that there have been cases and cases of people awaiting capital punishment who, upon re-investigation, have been found innocent of the crime they were convicted for. Now, I'm not saying that's the majority of them. But, even if it's just one... that would give me pause. What if the investigation had revealed the person's innocence too late?

But let's say the person is unmistakably guilty of something completely heinous. Even then. I mean, it boils down to the fact that I believe that person's redemption is possible and between them and their God. Remove them from society, absolutely. But killing them? To me (and this is the reason why I could never have an abortion either), you're committing the same level of crime you convicted them of. Besides, the sterility of government-sponsored execution (to me, and nobody has to agree with me) further compounds the gravity of the acts. I'm not saying there's any circumstances under which taking a person's life is okay, but to have it occur under such carefully planned and deliberate circumstances is galling to me.

An abortion... I can wrap my brain around that. Some pregnancies aren't meant to be. Sometimes nature even takes care of that without human involvement in any shape or form.

***4N6 DNA*** · 11-06-2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

Some pregnancies aren't meant to be.

This also brings up the point of what if a mother-to-be is not physically fit enough to carry the child? If it becomes an issue of her health, then who is to say that she does not have a choice to abort the baby?

LittleMilkJug · 11-11-2007, 09:08 AM

I think more thought should be put into prevention, ie sex education talked about more in schools, condoms given out free or at a very low cost etc. And then abortion should be available but with counciling. It's no good saying..just dont do it, in cases like this, it's such a part of nature. But we could do a whole lot more in educating people of a sexual age.

*Ledi* · 11-11-2007, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleMilkJug (View Post)

I think more thought should be put into prevention, ie sex education talked about more in schools, condoms given out free or at a very low cost etc. And then abortion should be available but with counciling. It's no good saying..just dont do it, in cases like this, it's such a part of nature. But we could do a whole lot more in educating people of a sexual age.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. There would be less abortions if people were more educated.

Queen Laura · 11-11-2007, 09:07 PM

Queen Laura · 11-11-2007, 09:09 PM

Hi,

I am completely non schooled in Christianity (the bible) or the American Judicial system (Australian). But I have always found it strange that many Pro Life are Pro death sentence. They quote the bible on why a fetus has the right to life but what about the death sentence, Doesnt the bible say Thou shalt not kill?

I really love reading your thoughts on this matter. Its great to see people thinking dont you think?

spent cigarette · 11-12-2007, 01:28 AM

Edit: nevermind.

fetch · 11-12-2007, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4N6 DNA (View Post)

This also brings up the point of what if a mother-to-be is not physically fit enough to carry the child? If it becomes an issue of her health, then who is to say that she does not have a choice to abort the baby?

Women die after Nicaragua's ban on abortions - Health - MSNBC.com

As for the death penalty issue, it says thou shalt not kill, but then it many cases God orders people to kill people who have sinned.
Then again, like I said, the Bible doesn't say abortion is a sin.