News & Politics - The abortion debate - Page 15

san fran · 09-07-2009, 01:58 PM

Exactly, freedom of choice.

But there are cases were I would say the woman/girl shouldn't have the choice. Those girls who don't know much about sexuality but have different partners and don't use contraceptives. (The boy should be part of this too).

If you don't want to get pregnant, use contraceptives, not only a condom. Make sure that you do anything you can do to avoid getting pregnant. But there can be so called "accidents". And if one thinks she can't afford to give birth to a child I can understand that.

I don't know where you all live, but is it true, that you have to pay in the United States to give birth to a child?
And there are actually people who think Obama's health care system would be bad. Sorry, but that's not about socialism. I live in Europe and I don't have to pay if I'll need to stay at hospital. If I'm ill doctors make sure they do their best and my health insurance does the rest. And even not wealthy people can afford that insurance. I don't have to pay if I give birth to a child. But I'll have to pay for an abortion if it's because I just don't want the child. If the pregnancy is a high risk for me they'll pay. Maybe there are big differences between both continents, but I think this is not something about socialism it's something about saving lives or do the best to make sure anybody gets a good treatment at hospital and doesn't need to pay for it.
Why should only people get a good treatment who have a lot of money??? Cruel image.

Of course I'll have to pay if I want cosmetic surgery which isn't necessary. (Necessary would be a breast reduction if your back hurts badly all day and night, 'cause your breasts are just too big).

Sorry for that slightly topic change, but that came to my mind when I thought about getting an abortion and paying for it.

fetch · 09-07-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by san fran (View Post)

Exactly, freedom of choice.

But there are cases were I would say the woman/girl shouldn't have the choice. Those girls who don't know much about sexuality but have different partners and don't use contraceptives. (The boy should be part of this too).

If you don't want to get pregnant, use contraceptives, not only a condom. Make sure that you do anything you can do to avoid getting pregnant. But there can be so called "accidents". And if one thinks she can't afford to give birth to a child I can understand that.

I think teenagers should be taught about birth control. But the way I see it, if someone isn't responsible enough to use birth control, how will they be parents?

san fran · 09-07-2009, 02:30 PM

That's the problem about it and I guess it'll never be solved -.-

**sunnykerr** · 09-07-2009, 06:22 PM

It might be solved and it might not be.

But creating parameters to decide who's allowed to get an abortion and who isn't won't help anyone either.

I agree with Pia, abortion providers are heroes.

We all talk about people who get abortions like it's the easiest thing in the world, but I don't think that's the norm. I think, for most women, it's got to be one of the most difficult, stressful decisions they ever have to make. And the actual operation can't be easy either.

Going to the dentist gives me the heebie-jeebies, so I can't imagine how I would feel if I had to undergo an abortion.

**Callace** · 09-08-2009, 12:09 PM

it's a very painful issue. And although I feel very strongly that it is wrong, I also see why there can be a need for it. At least, punishing the women is the wrong way to go. If we want to prevent abortions, I think sexual education, free contraception and good welfare arrangements for single mothers are better approaches.

**wanderer78** · 09-08-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

It might be solved and it might not be.

But creating parameters to decide who's allowed to get an abortion and who isn't won't help anyone either.

Agreed b/c then we get into some grey areas. What exactly constitutes rape? There's no solid agreement on that, not in the U.S anyways. How young is too young? How do you prove who is "immature" and "irresponsible"? What is incest? A woman who's pregnant with her step-father or step-brother's child would be incest to me. But some people wouldn't feel that way b/c they aren't biological relations. And on and on.

Callace, you bring up great points. And you lead me to my other point about pro lifers in the U.S. Most of them are against the things you suggest. They don't want abortions, but they don't want birth control, morning after pills, and don't get them started on "welfare". Or any other social programs. Adult women who are sexually active are deemed immoral somehow.

I always found it funny that a lot of right wingers are so hysterical about fetuses. Yet when the child is born, they don't want to help provide health insurance or a decent education for them. To me that's so hypocritical.

san fran · 09-08-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

We all talk about people who get abortions like it's the easiest thing in the world, but I don't think that's the norm. I think, for most women, it's got to be one of the most difficult, stressful decisions they ever have to make. And the actual operation can't be easy either.

That's true.

But it's hard to get the chance to talk to someone who had an abortion. I mean those girls/women are often ashamed, 'cause so many people think it is totally wrong to do that, but they shouldn't be ashamed. It was their decision. Beside that, it's very painful to talk about something like that...

I know someone who had an abortion and I can tell that talking about it wears her totally down. She couldn't get the baby, 'cause she's ill and her children would definitly be disabled - heavily disabled. She never wanted to get pregnant. Some medicaments she took influenced all this and it was some kind of an "accident".
She found it out very soon, but she didn't decide to get an abortion at once. It was a very hard time for her, but at the end she got one. Lots of talks to different doctors. She didn't want to give birth to a child, whose life wouldn't be longer than about 20 years, who probably wouldn't be able to see, talk, hear, speak. She also talked to a pastor. This man told her that God trusts her, no matter which decision she makes.
I was very surprised when she told me that, 'cause I'm used to pastors who say "abortion is an "invetion" of the devil, if you abort a child you're going to hell..." the worst I've heard was "even if you risk your life by getting the child (meaning even if you're going to die), it is your duty to give birth to it!" o_0

I understand her decision and respect it. I'm glad to know such a strong person like her.

**Callace** · 09-08-2009, 02:03 PM

that's a very strong story. And so tragic

I am so glad that her pastor supported her, at least. Getting into such a situation must be some of the worst things ever to have to handle.

Pia you make some good points too. Those religious rightwingers are so inconsistant that I have almost given up trying to trace the logics in their reasoning

**sunnykerr** · 09-08-2009, 07:21 PM

Well, I have one friend who had an abortion, but I could tell it was a difficult topic, so I didn't pry. And, in her case, it wasn't even a moral dilemma or anything. She and her boyfriend accidentally got pregnant. She was still living at home and she thought she was way too young to have a child. So she had an abortion. And, even then, I could tell it hadn't been easy.

Mostly, though, I keep thinking of this woman I saw on a local chat show months ago. At the time, her husband was the leader of one of the provincial political parties (or he'd just resigned). Anyway, they had three or four living children. And they talked about the one baby they had who was born with trisomy 18.

Now, trisomy 21 is Down syndrome.

Trisomy 18 is called Edwards syndrome. And that's one where the babies have all kinds of organ malformations. Most babies die in the womb. Of those who are born, half die within the first year. About one percent make it to their tenth year, and it's not an easy journey there either.

So, when I think of reasons why a non-raped woman might want to seek an abortion... I think of that woman, who gave birth to a living child who didn't make survive its first week of life.

I'm not saying abortion should have been her solution here. I wouldn't want to make that choice for any parent or woman. I'm just saying that I'm grateful the option is there.

**Callace** · 09-09-2009, 05:55 AM

I feel this is touching on the topic of euthanasia. If the baby is dying anyway, most likely wont make it though his/her first year, and get a touch medical history if s/he does, then it might be better for all parties to not go down that road.

But it is hard to tell.

fetch · 09-09-2009, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanderer78 (View Post)

I always found it funny that a lot of right wingers are so hysterical about fetuses. Yet when the child is born, they don't want to help provide health insurance or a decent education for them. To me that's so hypocritical.

I agree. If the idea of abortions make you feel uneasy, work on making adoption easier. Work on sex education. Work on helping young mothers. Don't make it illegal.

**sunnykerr** · 09-09-2009, 08:07 PM

I'm watching this thing on TV right now about the juvenile rehabilitation system in Missouri. Basically, kids are put in these... therapeutic group homes? I don't know what else to call it. It's like boot camp, only with sharing, therapy and chores (not hard labour by any stretch, but discipline creating).

The reason I bring it up is that, according to the program I'm watching, Missouri's system costs them significantly less than other states. And it changes lives. Not automatically, mind you, and probably not for everyone. But it works for a lot of kids.

And that makes me think of this whole abortion debate. Politicians like to say they're tough on crime, so they build jails and write tougher laws. Now, I'm not against that. When the situation calls for it. But this Missouri system is just the kind of thing nobody seems to be interested in doing for abortion.

Don't make it tougher to get abortion. Make it easier to avoid needing one.

**Callace** · 09-10-2009, 07:48 AM

that's a good point too. When people say that they wnt to be "tough on crime" what they really mean seems to be "tough on people". that doesnt so much prevent crime as making a tough environment, where people get less trusting and compassionate, and the way to committing crime thus gets shorter.

**sunnykerr** · 09-10-2009, 06:39 PM

That's precisely what I'm trying to say about abortion.

People say they're pro-life, but creating harsh abortion laws has nothing to do with preserving life. If anything, it hastens the death of some women by making back-alley abortions their only recourse.

**wanderer78** · 09-10-2009, 11:57 PM

Sort of random, but I was reading an article about Dr. George Tiller today. It turns out he took over his father's practice and had been surprised to find his father had perfomed abortions. And his father performed abortions b/c he was haunted by a woman who died after a botched illegal abortion. The senior Tiller had refused to perform one for her, so she went to someone who would and died.