News & Politics - The abortion debate - Page 10

**TheAngel** · 03-31-2009, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetch (View Post)

While a lot of people seem to hate condoms, I think going through an abortion would be less fun. And I think it's a pity some girls would prefer to do that instead of just using birth control.
On the other hand, sometimes obtaining birth control isn't easy for some girls.

I don't understand this condom hate. I mean, it doesn't have any effect on what women feel, or at least their ability to achieve...umm, their end goal. And for men, well, a lot of them could benefit from a little decreased sensitivity.

**TheAngel** · 05-31-2009, 02:23 PM

I know this is double posting, but since this news is new, and it's been a while since anyone posted in this thread I figured it would be alright:

Quote:

Abortion Doctor Gunned Down in Church
By ROXANA HEGEMAN
,
AP
posted: 31 MINUTES AGO
comments: 1920
filed under: Crime News, National News
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WICHITA, Kan. (May 31) -- Prominent late-term abortion provider George Tiller was shot and killed Sunday in a Wichita church where he was serving as an usher, his attorney said. The gunman fled but a city official said a suspect is in custody.
The city official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the case. The official did not provide additional details.

Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot during morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church while his wife was in the choir, his attorney Dan Monnat said. Police said the gunman had fled in a car registered in Merriam, a Kansas City suburb nearly 200 miles away.
Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy.
Tiller's killing is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement issued by Monnat. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."
The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."
A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy.

In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.
Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.
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"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."
In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.
Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.
After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media.
Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation started begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.
Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.
"I am stunned by this lawless and violent act, which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law," Kline said in a written statement. "We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."
Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller before the Senate confirmed her this year as U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary. Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.

So how do anti-abortion groups and individuals justify things like this. Killing a fetus is murder, but killing a human being with a wife and children and grandchildren is justifiable. God, people are sick and twisted.

++Audrina++ · 05-31-2009, 03:42 PM

There's ways for anti-abortionists to go around and get their message out, rather than going and killing someone. By doing that you're just as bad as the doctors who perform abortions IMO.

Bella Grint · 05-31-2009, 04:40 PM

Audrina and Angel, I agree completely. I never got the point of wanting to bomb abortion clinics and such. There are other ways to protest. Killing people to protest killing cancels each other out. It totally blurs the line of whose life is valued more and then if that occured anyone could have a reason to kill someone else.

Although did anyone find it truly ironic that an abortion doc was gunned down at church?

**TheAngel** · 05-31-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bella Grint (View Post)

Audrina and Angel, I agree completely. I never got the point of wanting to bomb abortion clinics and such. There are other ways to protest. Killing people to protest killing cancels each other out. It totally blurs the line of whose life is valued more and then if that occured anyone could have a reason to kill someone else.

Although did anyone find it truly ironic that an abortion doc was gunned down at church?

I lived in Birmingham, AL when the abortion clinic there was bombed and the security guard was killed and the nurse injured. My parents' good friends were actually the owners and doctors at the clinic. I was friends with their kids and we went trick-or-treating one Halloween and the guy chaperoning us was dressed up like a soldier. My parents didn't tell me until several years later that he was their bodyguard and that the gun he was carrying was real because they had received numerous threats on their lives and the lives of their children. It really made me understand the hate in the world. If you don't agree with something, then there are other ways to deal with it than murder.

Bella Grint · 05-31-2009, 07:07 PM

That is pretty low, making threats against their kids. That defeats their reasoning right there when it comes to abortion anyway.

ceilirose · 05-31-2009, 08:14 PM

The CNN Wire - Latest updates on top stories - CNN.com Blogs

Quote:

May 31st, 2009
Obama, others condemn Kansas abortion doctor’s killing
Posted: 08:51 PM ET
(CNN) — A roundup of reaction to Sunday’s killing of Dr. George Tiller, one of the few U.S. physicians to perform late-term abortions, as compiled by The CNN Wire:

President Barack Obama:
“I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning. However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence.”

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder:“The murder of Dr. George Tiller is an abhorrent act of violence, and his family is in our thoughts and prayers at this tragic moment. Federal law enforcement is coordinating with local law enforcement officials in Kansas on the investigation of this crime, and I have directed the United States Marshals Service to offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation. … As a precautionary measure, we will also take appropriate steps to help prevent any related acts of violence from occurring.”

Nancy Keenan, president, NARAL Pro-Choice America:“Dr. Tiller’s murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita.”

David O’Steen, executive director, National Right to Life Committee:“The National Right to Life Committee unequivocally condemns any such acts of violence regardless of motivation. The pro-life movement works to protect the right to life and increase respect for human life. The unlawful use of violence is directly contrary to that goal.”

Kim Gandy, president, National Organization for Women:
“This kind man and skilled doctor braved blockades, harassment, assault, and countless threats, including an attempted murder in 1993 when he was shot in both arms. He knew his life was in constant jeopardy, and that he would likely die at the hands of an anti-abortion terrorist — yet he continued to protect his patients and provide safe and legal abortions to women in often-desperate circumstances.”

Troy Newman, president, Operation Rescue:“Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.”

Randall Terry, founder and former president, Operation Rescue:“George Tiller was a mass murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama administration will use Tiller’s killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions.”

Cecile Richards, president, Planned Parenthood Federation of America:“The entire Planned Parenthood family is deeply saddened by the murder of Dr. George Tiller. While he was not a Planned Parenthood provider, he was an integral part of our community and his loss is felt by all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family and those close to him who are suffering a personal tragedy.”

Charmaine Yoest, president, Americans United for Life:“We condemn this lawless act of violence. The foundational right to life that our work is dedicated to extends to everyone. Whoever is responsible for this reprehensible violence must be brought to justice under the law.”

Dr. Tiller had already been shot in both arms in the early '90's. From what I've read he wore a bulletproof vest and was shot in the head so I'm sure his killer had been stalking him for some time.

portiaslegacy · 05-31-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAngel (View Post)

I don't understand this condom hate. I mean, it doesn't have any effect on what women feel, or at least their ability to achieve...umm, their end goal. And for men, well, a lot of them could benefit from a little decreased sensitivity.

Ha, I once saw a guy make the same point in a standup routine. He was all "You spend all this time looking for sex and then refuse a tool that helps it last longer?

But fetch: You have to not assume that people are getting abortions because of not using birth control. Most forms have some failure rate and no one is suggesting that anyone use an abortion as an alternative.

I am new-ish to the forums. While I have never had an abortion I am very pro choice and do volunteer work for Planned Parenthood. I have limited experience with protesters, and even when they are not killers they tend to be on the worst side of harassment.

Bella Grint · 05-31-2009, 08:19 PM

Oh I had no idea the killer was an actual stalker for all those shootings against Dr.Till's life. What will happen to his clinic now?

ceilirose · 05-31-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bella Grint (View Post)

Oh I had no idea the killer was an actual stalker for all those shootings against Dr.Till's life. What will happen to his clinic now?

I don't know. There are doctors that are still brave enough to help women if they want abortions but you can't blame them for having second thoughts. What's always made me mad is that these clinics usually offer a range of services for women. Not just abortion. I'd hate to go to one of these clinics for a check up or some other ailment and have to deal with those crowds.

Holder is doing a good thing about calling out the US Marshal's to protect these clinics.

Bella Grint · 05-31-2009, 09:01 PM

My friend takes the pill to regulate her period she always had huge health issues and she had to go to Planned Parenthood to get a refill and that was a day there were protesters outside. She wasn't pleased

++Audrina++ · 05-31-2009, 09:59 PM

His office has bullet proof glass, he wears a bullet proof vest to work and he has body guards take him to his car!!!

Thats crazy.

Bella I agree with you! It was very ironic he was killed in a church of all places! Yikes!

Bella Grint · 05-31-2009, 10:17 PM

it's weird I think docs like him are looked at as murderers but it's weird to think they do have normal lives and they go to church and stuff when they are condemned to hell by many..besides like someone else said, I don't think he only performed abortions. Then again he did do it after 21 weeks which I disagree with but that was probably a lot more hatred against him. I am surprised this happened in Kansas and he operated for so long there, explains a lot though.

Yeah he was very used to threats. His office got broken into or something and he wanted the CIA to look at it, which speaks volumes.

**Cristofle** · 05-31-2009, 11:36 PM

Sometimes I think the anti abortion protesters are given WAY too much slack. I believe in free speech, but they harass and frighten anyone who enters the clinic- the people going in have the right to do so without being screamed at, insulted, and threatened.

Uh Blah · 06-01-2009, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAngel (View Post)

I don't understand this condom hate. I mean, it doesn't have any effect on what women feel, or at least their ability to achieve...umm, their end goal. And for men, well, a lot of them could benefit from a little decreased sensitivity.

Well they can be a heat of the moment killer, but obviously it's better to be safe than sorry. I find some condoms completely kill my erection all together.