Sosa Lola

These topics made chaos within fandom. They made fans fight, start clubs, change minds about characters, grow to massively hate some characters. The arguments when they start, never end, and when they end, it's always with the phrase "Agree to disagree".

"Kick His Ass"

This was probably the first storm in the BtVS fandom. Not only Bangels were furious at Xander's betrayal, almost all the BtVS fandom was. Xander started to lose fans, and websites about evil Xander began (with pictures of Xander with devil horns) Xander bashing was increasing, if not born, and never ending arguments took place in possibly every forum. Until now fans are still upset about "Kick his ass", I think partly because the writers never dealt with it. If "kick his ass" was dealt with in S3, it won't be as infamous as it is today.

"Spike's Almost Rape"

I won’t lie and say this is the second storm, however, no storm was as big as this one. Spuffy/Spike fans were shocked beyond belief that Spike would actually commit something so disgusting. It was preferred by many if the writers had Spike trying to turn Buffy instead of trying to rape her. Some Spike haters were thrilled, and started many pages about how rapists should never be forgiven, especially after Buffy seemed to forgive Spike in S7 and prefer him over the other characters. Phrases like "Buffy had it coming" and "Buffy was asking for it" were the biggest reason why some fans were obligate to create sites in which victims of rape should NEVER be considered responsible for what the rapists did.


"Kicked Out of Her Own House."

Empty Places had the fans raging on Buffy's behalf. Almost all the characters betrayed her, except True Love Spike, and that episode was the best move to bring fans back to love Buffy. Right now Buffy's fanbase started to increase more, especially because of this episode, fans started to see how much Buffy had sacrificed and how much her friends weren't always supportive of her decisions and weren't always patient about her mistakes. The Scoobies are hated by many Buffy (the character) fans, as well as Spuffy fans to the point were some consider that Buffy would have done fine, if better, if she didn't have the Scoobies as her family


Was thinking about this today

Callace

good point. could be interesting to try and figure out why it is exactly these three topics that is still the hottest. as we can see in the "who betrayed Buffy the most"thread, these are far from the only betrayals Buffy has been the victim of. why are just these so controversial??

Jaime Bee

I will write more later but I have to say I disagree about Spike trying to turn Buffy. That would be much worse to me. He knows Buffy would never want that and it would be Deliberate. Spike didn't intend to go there and try to rape her.

Callace

me neither could never think Spike wanted to turn her. he loved her far too much for that. I think his bad experiece with turning his mother ought to have taught him that turning people he love is not a good idea.

I think it simply was his vampire way of trying to win her back. Ive been thinking a lot about the AR, and it actually makes fine vampire sense. such is after all what vampire lovers do. in CWDP Buffy and Holden agree on that much., that love, sex and violence is very closely connected in the vampire heart.

I also find Lovers Walk interesting on this topic. Dru had just dumped Spike, not because he knocked her on the head and kidnapped her, but because he had gone soft, making a truce with Buffy, and not wanting to destroy the world. And in the end he figures out what he needs to do to get her back: find her, and torture her intill she loves him again! (considering he has recently been dumped for a different demon the next time we see him, it must have worked for a little while)

And buffy has not really set this vampire logic aside. the first time she made the initiative to having sex with him was after all in the middle of a fight. and she has kept on beeing horrible to him, and yet coming back for more all the time. he is by now pretty used to that she needs a little persuation, but then loves it. I think he just thought that she this time needed to be tempted and persuvaded a little more, since her last breakup act were so sincere. And then he quit, and regretted dreadfully what he had done, once he realized that that was not the case this time.

stoptheqtip

Good idea for a thread. I think I totally agree with you, Sosa Lola. Those were the three biggies.

Jaime Bee

One thing that comes to mind about all of these things is that they were all used as plot devices. None of them though were out of character and did fit the story. All of them fit with what we had seen before.

Xander saying Kick His Ass fit because he had always hated Angel. He hated him even more for the torture he put Buffy through and killing Ms. Calendar. He couldn't have any idea though that things would have gone the way they did. My guess is that he thought Buffy would send Angel to Hell before he got his soul back. It's a plot device because it made Buffy not expect having to kill Angel with his soul. It made the scene much more powerful with her not knowing about the spell. She was in no way prepared for that to happen. It also was the real beginning of a pattern I think Joss wanted to start with Buffy being betrayed by her friends.

The Almost Rape fit because of everything we had seen. Vampire Logic too goes with it. Spike wouldn't have thought he needed a soul if he didn't think that would help make things different. After the Sex/Violence we saw in the Spuffy relationship Season 6 that happening fit. He went too far trying to make Buffy see they had something real. He felt So much Remore he went and won his soul back. I'm not excusing what he did because it was wrong. Buffy certainly didn't deserve that. Nobody does. It was a plot device because it was used to push Spike to get a soul. That was the last thing he ever wanted to do and it took something really bad to make him do it.

Buffy getting kicked out of her house wasn't surprising. You look at the Scoobies history through the years of betraying Buffy and it fit. Everything that came before had been leading to that. Others may not see it that way. I always thought though in the end they wouldn't stand by her. It was used as a plot device because it gave Spike the chance to really prove his love and loyalty to Buffy. She finally realized he loved her for her and was the long haul guy.

Well this is just my opinion. I know others probably won't agree.

Sosa Lola

Whatever fans liked to think, I believe Buffy was the luckiest slayer around, because she had Xander, Willow and Giles on her side. So what if they weren't perfect? I'm so happy they had personalities and were characters on their own than just some mindless slaves for Buffy.

People making it sound like the Scoobies had nothing but betray Buffy all the time. I think her friends betrayed her twice and nothing more. Xander: Kick His Ass and Empty Places. Willow: Evil Willow and Empty Places. Giles: Lies My Parents Told Me and Empty Places.

Buffy betrayed her friends when she hid Angel's return from them. Whether you like to defend her or not, it doesn't matter, she betrayed them by doing that. If Buffy should be excused all the time for her actions then we should also excuse the others for their actions.

Jaime Bee

You have a point but they always ran her life. The only time they were happy with who she was with was when she was with Riley. I'm sorry I just get annoyed with how she never called them on who they dated when one was Ex Demon that showed no remorse and the other was a Ware Wolf. I will admit the way they treated Spike annoys me too. I never said that's all they ever did. They never thought Buffy was capable of making her own choices. Buffy was just more supportive to them than they ever were to her.

Maybe saying they always betrayed her was a little strong but there was a pattern of them not understanding her and that certainly helped things come to a head in Empty Places.

You don't see them bringing Buffy back from the dead as a betrayal? Giles betraying her in Helpless and him leaving her in Tabularasa as a betrayal?

I didn't say Buffy never betrayed them but all she ever really tried to do was make them happy.

Sosa Lola

When? I read that a lot in some Spuffy fics, but I don't remember the Scoobies running Buffy's life. Other than Xander expressing that he doesn't like Angel and Spike, which Buffy always ignored, I saw nothing but support. Surely not blind support, but support no less.

Willow was always, always, always, supportive of Buffy's relationships. She always wanted to see her happy, even her spell in Tabula Rasa was about making Buffy (and Tara) happy. Sure she had control issues, and magic went over her head, but she always tried to make the ones around her as happy as possible.


I remember a few comments from Buffy about how stupid of Xander to date Cordelia, but I admit they weren't as harsg as Xander's about her dating Angel or Spike. Willow never judged Buffy when it came to dating.

Only Xander disliked Spike. After Him, he didn't seem to dislike him so much, if at all. In fact Dawn and Anya were the ones who vocally dissed Spike, while Xander and Willow remained loyal to Buffy's choices. Willow was the nicest Scooby to Spike actually.

When? I don't see them telling Buffy how she should run her life. Xander didn't seem to like Spike, but that's his opinion. He didn't force her to quit college and work at Doublemeat Palace, nor did Willow do that. All that was Buffy's choice.

Maybe because she cut herself off. Maybe because she was treating them like slaves. Maybe because she dismissed all the sacrifices and loyalty they had for her in the past seven years when she told Giles that no one had her back but Spike, when both Xander and Willow were nothing but loyal to her in S7.

Honestly, no. Selfish? Yes. Irresponsible? Totally. But I don't see it as betrayal. I think they really believed she was trapped in a Hellish place. They couldn't just leave her there.

I give you Helpless. And while I thought Giles was being a coward in Tabula Rasa, I don't see it as betrayal. The man wanted to rest. He wasn't her watcher anymore, he could leave if he wanted. He was planning to leave since S5.

Them as well. All they wanted to do was help her and try to make her more comfortable and happy. But they have their own lives, and they're nothing but humans. They make mistakes as much as Buffy does.

stoptheqtip

I know people are going to massively disagree with me about this- but I don't think "Kick His Ass" was a betrayal, so much as a misjudgement. He thought that if Buffy knew that Angel was going to get his soul back, she wouldn't have fought as effectively and Angelus may well have killed her before he got his soul back. Of course, he didn't realize the consequences of the lie, so it was a big mistake, but it was done with some good intent (and some bad intent, like jealousy).

Here, I don't think she was betraying them, but was simply scared of their reactions, particularly Xander. The only person she was truly betraying was Giles, in my opinion, because he trusted her to tell him anything and she didn't (although, later, he's going to betray her trust for the council and almost get her killed in Helplessso...)

Empty Places was totally a betrayal, though- after everything she's done for them, how many times she's saved them and forgave them and been there for them, they turn away from her because she made an error in judgement. Unfortunately, in a war, there are casualties- no matter how great a leader she was or wasn't, she couldn't protect everyone, she even said so herself. IMO, this betrayal was designed to highlight why Buffy should love Spike and forgive him for all his previous misdeeds. They couldn't have relied on the strength of Spike's character (which is, after he gains a soul, admittedly pretty damn strong- if you compare his recovery from the soul-getting- a couple of months- to Angel's- a century, it shows amazing inner-strength) instead of turning all of her friends into jackasses? That was just a mark of bad writing and worse characterization- no way would the "real" Willow and Xander just abandon her like that.

She didn't quit college by choice- she quit to look after her sister after her mother died- not much of a choice there. She re-applied, but it was turned down.

Callace

I think you all three have excellent points. I read and learn

this is one of the things I really love about the Buffy characters. they have human frailities and flaws, really love each other, and tries to make each other happy, but may fail miserably. Are selfish, irresponsible and spiteful at times, but generally good at the bottom

based on what I just wrote about character frailities I actually think Xander could really do what he does in that episode. He had after all just gotten his eye poked out due to her mistake. and now getting to hear her wanting to rush back in and repeat it?? And willow was also stretched and strained already (and after all looking pretty guilty when explaining the whole thing to Spike.)

but I too would really prefer the venture into increased spuffyness that you are suggesting. Spike could have given his faboulus "youre the one"speech to an exhausted and insecure Buffy who also had the support of her friends!!

Sosa Lola

Empty Places surely had suffered from bad characterization. Sigh. I also believe it was done to have fans root for Spuffy, it sadly made me hate Spuffy more. I mean, Spike could still say the Touched speech without ruining all the characters.

In Revelation, Buffy hiding the person who tried to kill them all from her friends should be considered a betrayal. No matter what circumstances were. And I don't fault the Scoobies for being angry with her. They have every right. Angel had scared the hell out of them, almost killed Willow and Xander, killed Jenny, tortured Giles, threatened Joyce, caused Buffy a lot of pain. No wonder they'd feel betrayed she hid him.

I just meant that Xander and Willow didn't force her to quit. They never tried to control her life. Other than bringing her back from dead, they controlled nothing in her life. If she was scared to tell them about her and Spike, it really had nothing to do with them as much as her feeling disgusted with herself for sleeping with him. No one hated Spike but Xander and Giles. And basically she ignored Xander when she was dating Angel, if she really wanted to date Spike, she could also ignore his remarks about him. The issue really was about Buffy accepting Spuffy, not her friends accepting Spuffy.

Enisy

I don't think "Empty Places" was written to make us root for Spuffy, so much as to make us side with Buffy and realize what isolation her leadership had brought her to.

stoptheqtip

Totally! It's obvious he believed all of that before, so why knock down all the other characters to make him look better? Obviously, they didn't have faith in the strength of his character. Which is stupid, because the fans adored him (I know I did, just not with Buffy, due to my other 'ship preferences) pretty much no matter what.

I don't blame the Scoobies for being angry with her- I would have been- but I totally understood where Buffy was coming from. I don't think it was a betrayal - she knew he was ensouled and too weak to cause anymore harm, and knew that the Scoobies wouldn't think like that. I completely understand why you think that it was a betrayal, I just don't happen to think the same way .


I thought that was what you meant, but I wasn't sure. I do think Xander was a bit preachy and judgemental with Buffy- not very often, though- sometimes, but he definitely didn't try to control her life. If he'd tried to do that, she would have kicked his ass six ways from Sunday! In the beginning, Willow advised and guided, never judged, and then by s5 she just stopped caring about the other Scooby's problems and just become completely immersed in her relationship with Tara and magic. I agree that she wasn't anything to do with them, but of her feeling ashamed of herself- then again, having seen Xander's reaction to Angel (even before the curse was broken) , I couldn't really blame her for not telling them- even though she should have (and probably would have in earlier seasons. But then she wouldn't have done it in earlier seasons, because Spike wasn't even remotely a good guy then).

Sosa Lola

If Buffy didn't want to tell the Scoobies about her and Spike, it's her choice. It irks me when fans blame the Scoobs for Buffy hiding her relationship with Spike. If she really liked Spike, and was not ashamed of him, she'd tell her friends and she won't care what they think (look at her with Angel, also her with Spike in S7)