Rogue

SOULED OR SOLD OUT?



I'm not sure if there's a thread like this already, but this is a topic that seems to arise no matter what the topic. Can Spike and Angel be held accountable for their actions when they didn't posess souls? Is Spike with a chip the same vampire as Spike with a soul? Are Angel and Angelus one and the same...is Angel right to feel guilty for Angelus's crimes?

I just thought it would be a good place to put everybody's thoughts on the subject in the one place.

wilywiccan

This will be a great thread. I'll be posting in here as other people post.

Callace

wow. my thoughts on this topic could fill an entire page Ill post here as soon as I have better time

Rogue

It would be really great to have some nice healthy debate going, since there seems to be so many different opinions on this matter.

Scythe

Firstly, I believe that what may be true for Spike isn't necessarily also true for Angel. I believe that Spike somehow changed when he was soulless - in some way that has nothing to do with the chip and more (IMO) to do with his love for Buffy.

Callace

vampires are inherently evil, and thereby not capable of beeing "good" by our standards. but they still clearly have some sort of free will, and can decide to do good, if they feel a strong enough motivation for it despites their evilness.

Spike and Dru stands for me as the most illustrative example of that. both core evil, but they care so much for each other that they still do some acts of good, like nursing each other. (when she was ill, and when he was in the wheel chair.)

When Spike falls in love with Buffy instead, he gets motivated to be far more good, since she is, and he knows that thats what she likes. but even then, hes not capable of being good by human standards.

It seems to me that "good" by vampire standards means protecting, caring for and not intentionally psychologically hurting those you love. (physical hurting is ok. thats foreplay) everyone else is free prey. Therefore they can be held accountable for what they do to hurt their loved ones. but nothing else.

my opinion on the soul-issue is that the soul is just another part of them, like an arm or a heart. when vampires get their soul back, they change personality, just like a person getting his left leg back changes his style of walking but that doesnt make them an other person.

Chipped Spike is a very long way from souled Spike. The chip was just like a muzzle to a dog, it kept him from biting and fighting, but did nothing with his desire to do so. With soul, the very idea of biting and feeding of a human appalled him, and he had to be taunted by Buffy into fighting again, stating to her then that he didnt like it anymore. (getting back into it when trying, but all the same)

Hell on Heels

Love the topic.

I think all vampires are evil. They just pretend to be otherwise when it suits them. They don't know true love, just obsession. Some vampire are more violent than others only because the demon is it's own demon. Like humans, they all aren't the same.

I don't think Angel is responsible for Angelus's actions and yes I see them as two totally different characters. But Angel is tainted because he remembers everything Angelus did and he knows that to his victims, he did it because it's his face. He remembers every crime and even feels guilty for killing the murderers and rapists when he was trying to convince Darla he was still evil because she's all he had in the world. The life they led was all he knew for hundreds of years. It's like a car accident. You loose control of your car and kill someone on accident. You were there but had no control but that doesn't stop you from being haunted by the fact that you took someones life. Now triple that emotion by a thousand for all of Angelus's victims and you have Angel's guilt. There would have to be something seriously wrong with Angel for him NOT to feel guilty because it's what a soul does to a person with a heart.

I don't think William is responsible for Spike's actions. My only problem is, William kept calling himself Spike like he was still proud to be the demon after he got a soul and he still sported the slayer trophy jacket and he only showed remorse for his actions when it would suit him. Like looking pathetic and laying against the cross to make Buffy feel badly for him. Tasteless. Just because someone has a soul, it doesn't mean they are good and I'm not convinced that Spike turned good after he got his soul. As for Spike loving Buffy, I don't buy it. He was obsessed with her IMO. As for him getting his own soul. I still think that's one of the BtVS storylines that made no sense at all. If it was that easy, Angel would have had his soul bond a long time ago. Spike got a soul so he could stay on the show because after his rape attempt on Buffy, the lead of the show, he needed some excuse to why he was still there and why Buffy hadn't staked his butt because he so deserved it. That's what I believe.

Callace

the soulgetting only doesnt make sense if you dont accept that Spike really loved Buffy, was horrified by what he had done to her, and wanted to make sure he could never misinterpret a situation that badly again.

there are many possible reasons why Angel didnt do it. the simplest one is that he didnt know it was possible.

vampires do love, but its a different kind of love. more violent, tougher, but still love. its like Dru says, in Crush. vampires can love quite well, even though not wisely

Yes, Spike didnt take back his human name when he got a soul, but neither did Angel. he just cut the last syllable off it. And Spike did lose the coat, untill Buffy demanded that he found back his evil self, in Get it Done.

We see hm insane in the basement in several scenes that Buffy isnt in. So I think its obvious that he is deeply remorseful. And he did go on fighting the good fight with Angel, after his resurrection

sum1

There's such a thing called the insanity defence. That if somebody say commits a murder and they're nuts when they do it the law doesn't hold them responsible. That can be misused in some situations but it can also be fair in some other situations. Somebody not being blamed for stuff they did while they weren't all there. Compared to soulled Spike, soulless Spike wasn't all there. Not all of soulled Spike was there, his soul wasn't. Looked at from the point of view of judging soulled Spike, soulless Spike is like soulled Spike gone insane. Heck, it goes beyond insanity. A major part of his being, his soul, was gone. It's reasonable to acquit soulled Spike (for what he he did while soulless) same as somebody would get acquitted for a murder they did while insane.

But if somebody commits a murder while insane and they become sane again, they mightn't be put in jail for the murder but it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to feel remorse over it. So it's not unreasonable for Angel to feel remorse over what he did while soulless. And it WAS Angel who did that stuff. Pretending soulled and soulless Angel are two different people makes nonsense of Angel's storyline and of a lot of BTVS and ATS stuff. It just doesn't wash. Soulled and soulless Angel are the same demon and both versions of him retain much of what made up the human Liam even if one version lacks the soul part of the human Liam. They're not two separate people. Soulled Angel is a demon, not just a human man with a demon linked to him. And soulless Angel is part human Liam, not just a pure demon.

While soulled Angel can get some forgiveness for what he did while soulless, the crimes he committed while soulled are another question entirely. Murdering people he decided weren't worthy of life, trying to kill a man helpless in a hospital bed, murdering a champion of good, betraying and murdering an ally, etc.
Getting a snazzy name change to wipe away past crimes is not a sign of a better person. And personally I prefer Spike being "proud to be the demon" (as you put it) to Angel's "I have a soul and that depresses me" negative attitude. Just below Angel's suface you can see lurking there the wish to lose that soul, get free of it all. I prefer Spike's attitude to that. Spike WAS a demon and getting all bothered about it wasn't going to help anything.

Spike showed plenty remorse for actions. He bored me up the wall with his bloody remorse. Thank goodness he didn't waste ALL his time moping, like certain self-absorbed soulless vampires do. And so what if he kept the jacket, he's a complex guy. Clearly the writers felt he looked cool in it so he kept it.


You're talking about the actions of somebody who was totally nuts at the time. I certainly don't think there's any proof he put himself on that cross to influence Buffy's feelings. He put himself on that cross because the writers liked the symbolic image.

I think it's pretty obvious Spike turned good after getting his soul. Whereas I'm less sure about Angel, the guy who goes around murdering people while soulled and tries to lose his soul.

Spike being in love with Buffy is pretty solidly established canon. We all know Spike loved Buffy. And the show SAYS Angel loved Buffy, but how could he have really loved her if he was willing to try to lose his soul again (Reprise) and unleash on the world a version of himself that had been obsessed with killing Buffy and had nearly succeeded? Spike loved Buffy, it was twisted love before season 7 because he was soulless vampire and the love of soulless vampires is twisted. But it was love. But Angel's "love"... something that conveniently vanishes like that... ?

Ah but Angel was never really very keen on his soul, it was always a burden for him that made him miserable. So there's good reason why he mightn't try to make it more permanent.

If Buffy staked everybody who deserved it there'd never have been an Angel series.

Rogue

The subject of the way a vampire love has been a source of contention thus far:

The way I see it, vampires (unsouled, unchipped) can love. Most prominently, this has been demonstrated best by Spike and Dru. But it's a very different kind of love; selfish love. Spike worked damn hard to find a cure for Dru, yes. But it was because he loved her, wanted to be with her. When she didn't want to be with him he couldn't accept that-couldn't put her interests above his own interest in wanting to be with her. A selfish love. Selfless love is when one person puts another person's happiness or life before their own interests. Such as when Angel left Buffy to give her a better life. It didn't mean he loved her any less, but he wanted to put her happiness above his own interests in being with her.

Who thinks Angelus would have done this? The difference being of course, that Angel had a soul.

Or when Spike gave up his life for Buffy in 'Chosen' after he got his soul back. Again, selfless love.
Many assert that Darla loved Angelus and vice versa-but was it not Darla who left him in the barn to die when the hunters surrounded them, upon her own life being threatened? Despite her 'love' for Angelus, her own interests took priority.

Vampires can love. But only a vampire with a soul can love selflessly.

...But then again. What about a vampire with a chip? Was it not Spike who go beaten to a bloody pulp by Glory protecting Dawn's secrecy, in the interest of not hurting Buffy?

Maybe he knew he was as good as dead from Buffy if he told Glory. But maybe it was an act of selfless love from a vampire 'with a leash' on his killer instincts...

Interesting.

Hell on Heels

I like your post Rogue but using the word love makes me uncomfortable. Problem is, we could hash this over forever but because of the inconsistent writing of vampires on the shows, none of us will be proven right.

I still don't think vampires can love like souled things can. Obsession and possession is what drives them. That and blood.

Rogue

I agree. There was inconsistent writing on the shows, which means we just have to interpret what we've been given.

But what of vampires with souls?

Callace

wonderful post. I think this settles the matter of vampire love.

As to Spike protecting Dawn, I think that was partially because he knew Buffy wanted him to do it, and partially because of his friendship with dawn - knowing he would lose her if he told.

Scythe

I agree with that, great post

Hell on Heels

I said souled things, that includes vampires. I think they are capable of love.