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Old 06-19-2020, 08:52 AM
  #61
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More pretty




You know, um…I - I don’t need to get that.
That, you have to get.
https://sodemonizemealready.tumblr.c...-get-that-that
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:46 AM
  #62
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That little nose rub in the second panel!
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:06 PM
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Even though Buffy had inadvertently ruined the mood by giving Cordy time to realize that she'd let down her wall and threw it back up which heavily frustrated Angel.
I looooved that author's take on the scene. It might have to be my new headcanon.

It tracks, too. Cordy does seem to give Angel a real smile when he laughs at her Barbie dream car joke. Then, after Buffy shows up and Cordy sidles up to him with a cappuccino, she has her calculated Queen C persona back in place & he no longer looks comfortable.

Quote:
Except it STILL wasn't obvious enough to Angel and Cordelia themselves. I've said it before, both buried themselves so deep in denial it was a bit ridiculous.
Ridiculous enough that perhaps that was Jasmine, at least in some part.
I don't think Angel denied his that long, really. We've both kinda decided he started truly falling for her around TSILA - but Darla came back right around that time too, and started messing with his head, and he pushed Cordy and the AI gang away, etc. But as soon as he has his epiphany in late S2 and realizes what living without Cordy is like/what it's like to lose her, I think he's already head over heels. Even when he denies feeling something more for her to Fred, I think part of it was obliviousness, but the other part was him doing his usual 'I don't deserve her/happiness' thing and immediately trying to shut the door on a good thing for himself. Anyway, he came around much faster than she did, at any rate.

But we'll never know the true extent who Jasmine's reach, so who knows.

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Wait, there was only two weeks in-between 'Angel' and 'Surprise'/'Innocence'?
If my memory serves me for once, though somehow I doubt it, BA never truly came back from the Angelus saga which would mean that essentially their entire romantic relationship was two weeks long.
I knew it lacked development but damn.

Still, though, BA is very much there while Angelus was around, it was his whole motive for terrorizing Sunnydale.
Sorry, I misspoke when I said 2 weeks. I was being hyperbolic.

No, I think there was maybe, like, 6 months between Angel and Surprise? I'm not sure. IDK when Buffy started her school year in S1, but it seemed like she moved to SD in the middle of the semester? Then she went to her Dad's for the summer (and didn't see Angel for those 2 months...)

But they didn't officially start calling what they were doing dating until around Reptile Boy? So they only have a relationship from 'Reptile Boy' (2x05) to 'Surprise' (2x13). Which would've been, what, roughly 2 months?

I mean, I understand the appeal of BA (though I prefer other ships on the show, clearly) but their buildup has always been lackluster to me considering the extent of what the show wants us to believe they felt for each other.

Quote:
Ugh, alright I'm done here. I can't believe I was even attempting to give him credit, to begin with.
I must sound like such a Xander hater right now. Ironically, I find that I usually tolerate him better than a large chunk of the fandom, but the way he treated Cordy when they were dating has always been a sore spot for me.

Quote:
I figured it counted for something that he seemingly cared about how much the Prom meant to her.
No, I do think the Prom dress was the nicest thing Xander ever did for Cordy. Again, though, maybe it's me being cynical, but I have to wonder how much of it was because he wanted to do something nice for her---and I'm sure part of him did---and how much of it was to absolve him of his own guilt, bc she'd never let him apologize and hadn't forgiven him like Oz did with Willow. So the dress was kind of their 'truce' moment.

Thanks for the gifs, starryeyesxx. CC and DB gut me in that scene.
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:47 PM
  #64
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I looooved that author's take on the scene. It might have to be my new headcanon.

It tracks, too. Cordy does seem to give Angel a real smile when he laughs at her Barbie dream car joke. Then, after Buffy shows up and Cordy sidles up to him with a cappuccino, she has her calculated Queen C persona back in place & he no longer looks comfortable.
I'd forgotten that bit but I'd wager he was no longer comfortable because Buffy had left in a jealous fit.
Which is another reason to love the interpretation in 'Cursed'.

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I don't think Angel denied his that long, really. We've both kinda decided he started truly falling for her around TSILA - but Darla came back right around that time too, and started messing with his head, and he pushed Cordy and the AI gang away, etc. But as soon as he has his epiphany in late S2 and realizes what living without Cordy is like/what it's like to lose her, I think he's already head over heels. Even when he denies feeling something more for her to Fred, I think part of it was obliviousness, but the other part was him doing his usual 'I don't deserve her/happiness' thing and immediately trying to shut the door on a good thing for himself. Anyway, he came around much faster than she did, at any rate.
Yes, we agree that his feelings started in TSILA but when his feelings started is not the same as when he became aware of them.

Both were legit oblivious up until a point and I concur Angel's awareness came first.
Cordelia's awareness started in 'Tomorrow' when Groo pointed her feelings out to her and I believe Angel's awareness started when Fred pointed out his feelings to him in 'Billy' or perhaps we could say it was somewhere in between 'Epiphany' and 'Disharmony'.

Post-'Billy' is when he was inarguably consciously denying his feelings with the 'I don't deserve her or have anything to offer her' routine.

Cordy, however, was buried deep in oblivious denial---err well, I'm pretty sure I remember her being very shocked when Groo told her she loved Angel and was like: "holy ****, I do!".

I do believe there was still some obliviousness on Angel's end as well, I'm not sure if any was still to his own feelings but he was certainly as oblivious to hers as she herself was.
I don't believe he saw what Groo's makeover really meant other than that the woman stealing neandertal was wearing his clothes and when she tells him he seemed pretty damn clueless.

I'm reminded of her line in YW:
"Boy I really fall for the dumb ones don't I?"
Unfortunately, she does.


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Sorry, I misspoke when I said 2 weeks. I was being hyperbolic.

No, I think there was maybe, like, 6 months between Angel and Surprise? I'm not sure. IDK when Buffy started her school year in S1, but it seemed like she moved to SD in the middle of the semester? Then she went to her Dad's for the summer (and didn't see Angel for those 2 months...)

But they didn't officially start calling what they were doing dating until around Reptile Boy? So they only have a relationship from 'Reptile Boy' (2x05) to 'Surprise' (2x13). Which would've been, what, roughly 2 months?
Oh. My bad.
Sometimes my brain is a bit too literal and I've recently been pre-diagnosed as potentially on the autism spectrum which I believe this sort of thing would track with.

A roughly 2-month official dating period is still surprisingly shorter than it feels with the Angelus backlash/obsession arc and season 3's aftermath tension.

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I mean, I understand the appeal of BA (though I prefer other ships on the show, clearly) but their buildup has always been lackluster to me considering the extent of what the show wants us to believe they felt for each other.
I understand the appeal as well, it's the whole 'forbidden love' deal as Cordy puts it and on top of that in itself being a boring cliche, I concur that there wasn't enough proper build-up to sell it for what it was claimed to be.

CA was so real and unique, it showed me how much was missing from BA's relationship and how unhealthy it actually was.

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I must sound like such a Xander hater right now. Ironically, I find that I usually tolerate him better than a large chunk of the fandom, but the way he treated Cordy when they were dating has always been a sore spot for me.
Sounds like your tolerance might be higher than mine.
I can't remember ever particularly liking him, in fact, all that stands out to me about him in my limited memories is how selfish and inconsiderate he could be.

One example that has come to mind is 'The Pack' where it's actually directed at Willow, not Cordy.
At the end of the episode, Xander notices that Willow appears to be rattled which he is given the undeserved privilege of not remembering is from the terrible things he'd said to her while possessed by the hyena. He asks if she's alright and when she lies that she is, he immediately accepts it and drops the subject.

Compare that to the bathroom door scene in 'That Vision thing':

Angel knocks on the closed door of the bathroom.

Cordy: "I told you, it's about finding the coin."
Angel: "It's me."
Cordy: "I'm fine!"
Angel: "I'm not leaving until you open the door. I mean it, Cordelia, open up."
Cordy opens the door, shirt back on, hiding the scratches, and gives him a bright smile.
Cordy: "See? Fine!"
Angel stops her from closing the door again.
Angel: "They're getting worse, aren't they?"
Cordy: "I'm feeling better. Once I get a little protein in me, I'll be good as new. Honest. Now, go declaw those things!"
Angel: "I've asked Fred to take you home."
Cordy: "I don't need to go home."
Angel: "There is nothing else you can do here. Just - get some rest, okay?"
Cordy: "No..."
Angel: "O-kay?"
Cordy sighs: "Okay."

Closes the door.


Now this wasn't exactly a strong attempt at a real discussion either but next to Xander in 'The Pack', it might as well have been a fully open heart to heart. Especially considering that Willow didn't have Cordy's skill at putting on a "the world is perfect" face.


Don't even get me started on his dumbass prejudice in 'Selfless' (BTW, I'd never been more proud of Buffy for using a BA card no less even though I don't agree that there wasn't another option in 'Becoming', I could go on for about a paragraph on that).

This discussion, all the reminders of just how horrible he was to Cordy is just steering me more towards the Xander hate zone.

Another CA fic trope I'm a sucker for is when Angel verbally rips into him in Cordy's honor.


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No, I do think the Prom dress was the nicest thing Xander ever did for Cordy. Again, though, maybe it's me being cynical, but I have to wonder how much of it was because he wanted to do something nice for her---and I'm sure part of him did---and how much of it was to absolve him of his own guilt, bc she'd never let him apologize and hadn't forgiven him like Oz did with Willow. So the dress was kind of their 'truce' moment.
That's what I mean. While I do feel as though he cared enough to not want her to miss Prom, something he is aware is important to her, I concur that the dress was partially guilt-driven.

The IRS thing, I place that act on a higher level because to not humiliate her with very personal gossip was something he chose to do despite her doing it to him.
That might have been the most mature thing he'd ever done.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Thanks for the gifs, starryeyesxx. CC and DB gut me in that scene.
They gutted themselves in that scene.
Both got so emotional during filming that at one point filming was actually stopped entirely to give them time to collect themselves.
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Last edited by Ashes Fall; 06-19-2020 at 08:54 PM
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:55 AM
  #65
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Thanks for the gifs, starryeyesxx. CC and DB gut me in that scene.
No problem, I've actually got hundreds bookmarked, ready to post here, but I trust to space them out a little
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Old 06-23-2020, 01:25 PM
  #66
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Ah, I've not had a good start to the week. I got pretty sunburned on Sunday and had an awful migraine all day yesterday.

Quote:
No problem, I've actually got hundreds bookmarked, ready to post here, but I trust to space them out a little
Can't wait to see more.

Quote:
or perhaps we could say it was somewhere in between 'Epiphany' and 'Disharmony'.
Yeah, I like to think he noticed a marked shift in his feelings for her late S2, but was still grappling with what it all meant/not ready to face them yet - plus, he was in the doghouse after his beige period. He might've been too focused on just earning back her trust/friendship to even fathom he could ever have more.

He wanted her to love him in 2x22 and was visibly disappointed when she corrected him and declared her love for Groo. So I think some part of him was aware that what he felt towards her wasn't 100% friendly, but being the big dork that he is, wasn't yet fully aware that he was in love (or close to it).

Quote:
I do believe there was still some obliviousness on Angel's end as well, I'm not sure if any was still to his own feelings but he was certainly as oblivious to hers as she herself was.
I don't believe he saw what Groo's makeover really meant other than that the woman stealing neandertal was wearing his clothes and when she tells him he seemed pretty damn clueless.
Poor Angel. At that point, I don't blame him for being oblivious to her feelings for him. She'd done such a good job of denying them, that she'd all but convinced herself they weren't there.

Plus, I think his inner saboteur/belief he doesn't deserve anything good was once again rearing its head. He probably thought Cordy was better off with Groo bc he could go in the sun, etc. Angel thought he wasn't any good for her. .

Quote:
A roughly 2-month official dating period is still surprisingly shorter than it feels with the Angelus backlash/obsession arc and season 3's aftermath tension.
Yeah, it's a definite weakness in the story now that shows are so bingeable and accessible. Their short build up goes by in a blink. I guess it does fit with her age at the time, though. Everything feels so dramatic and like 'the end of the world' at that age. Well, I know for me it did. I look back on things I thought were a huge deal at the time...and now I'm like...pfft...ant hills. (Not to minimize what Buffy went through with Angelus, bc that was obviously hugely traumatic.)

Quote:
Angel: "There is nothing else you can do here. Just - get some rest, okay?"
Cordy: "No..."
Angel: "O-kay?"
Cordy sighs: "Okay."
Ugh. Protective-Angel. I get all swoony.

Quote:
Now this wasn't exactly a strong attempt at a real discussion either but next to Xander in 'The Pack', it might as well have been a fully open heart to heart.
I will give Xander the small benefit of being 16 in The Pack, while Angel was 27 (give or take 200 years). So Angel was way more emotionally mature than Xander, but, yeah, I still agree with you re: X being selfish, inconsiderate, and never properly having to face the consequences of his actions. B & W (and the writers) let him get away with so much.

Quote:
This discussion, all the reminders of just how horrible he was to Cordy is just steering me more towards the Xander hate zone.


I can only imagine what our convos would look like if we re-watched an episode where they were dating.

Quote:
Another CA fic trope I'm a sucker for is when Angel verbally rips into him in Cordy's honor.
Haha yes. That's a big guilty pleasure of mine. Esp if it's during the Sunnydale years.

Quote:
The IRS thing, I place that act on a higher level because to not humiliate her with very personal gossip was something he chose to do despite her doing it to him.
That might have been the most mature thing he'd ever done.
Yes, that was kind of him. He has his moments...the bad ones just tend to be really bad, plus amplified by the fact that he never has to properly own up to them.

I will say Xander comes off as very realistic. He's hugely flawed and that's very human. I've known quite a few guys with the 'Xander Problem.' I just doubt the show knew that was what they were portraying.

Quote:
hey gutted themselves in that scene.
Both got so emotional during filming that at one point filming was actually stopped entirely to give them time to collect themselves.
Aww. No wonder I can't watch that scene without getting teary eyed.
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Old 06-23-2020, 01:31 PM
  #67
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This is the origin story Giles gives in The Harvest:

Quote:
Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures.

Buffy: And vampires.

Xander: Okay, this is where I have a problem. See, because we're talking about vampires. We're having a *talk* with vampires in it.

Willow: Isn't that what we saw last night?

Buffy: No. No, th-those weren't vampires, those were just guys in thundering need of a facial. Or maybe they had rabies. It could have been rabies. A-and that guy turning to dust? Just a trick of light. (Xander gives her a look) That's exactly what I said the first time I saw a vampire. Well, after I was done with the screaming part.

Willow: Oh, I-I need to sit down.

Buffy: You are sitting down.

Willow: Oh. Good for me.

Xander: So vampires are demons?

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.
I wonder how this fits in with Froggy-Angel.

Also, hold up...."infected by the demon's soul"...demons have souls now? So confused.
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Old 06-23-2020, 05:58 PM
  #68
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Ah, I've not had a good start to the week. I got pretty sunburned on Sunday and had an awful migraine all day yesterday.
Aww. I've been down the bad sunburn avenue.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Yeah, I like to think he noticed a marked shift in his feelings for her late S2, but was still grappling with what it all meant/not ready to face them yet - plus, he was in the doghouse after his beige period. He might've been too focused on just earning back her trust/friendship to even fathom he could ever have more.
Exactly the reason I tend to lean towards season 3 being where it counted.
I'm suddenly wondering if Lorne specifically waited until the beige-ness faded to have his talk with Angel. As an empathic demon, he had to have noticed it sooner. Fred has no choice of course as she wasn't around until season 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
He wanted her to love him in 2x22 and was visibly disappointed when she corrected him and declared her love for Groo. So I think some part of him was aware that what he felt towards her wasn't 100% friendly, but being the big dork that he is, wasn't yet fully aware that he was in love (or close to it).
"You love me too right? As a friend or a co-worker? Maybe love's too strong a word."
He was so precious it hurt!
I most definitely felt like there was some awareness in that plea because it took him an extra second to throw in "as a friend or co-worker" which almost sounded reluctantly desperate, as though it wasn't what he preferred but would be better than nothing.


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Poor Angel. At that point, I don't blame him for being oblivious to her feelings for him. She'd done such a good job of denying them, that she'd all but convinced herself they weren't there.
Oh nor do I. Compared to her Angel flashed a neon sign of his feelings, this could also be the reason Fred and Lorne had focused their efforts on him.

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Plus, I think his inner saboteur/belief he doesn't deserve anything good was once again rearing its head. He probably thought Cordy was better off with Groo bc he could go in the sun, etc. Angel thought he wasn't any good for her. .
He did buy her the elixir that allowed her to have sex with Groo without passing him the visions and paid for their vacation in Mexico.

As much as I hate the vacation and maintain that part of it was that he couldn't stand to watch them together any longer not to mention that she was too quick to accept it, I do believe that he was first and foremost putting her happiness first.

We see him do this again in season 4 when he finds out that she's in the higher plane. Ignoring the circumstances under which he became aware of that situation and his total disregard for the red flags for a moment, he was willing to let her go under the impression that she'd made her own choice to serve a higher purpose and he understood and respected that.

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Yeah, it's a definite weakness in the story now that shows are so bingeable and accessible. Their short build up goes by in a blink. I guess it does fit with her age at the time, though. Everything feels so dramatic and like 'the end of the world' at that age. Well, I know for me it did. I look back on things I thought were a huge deal at the time...and now I'm like...pfft...ant hills. (Not to minimize what Buffy went through with Angelus, bc that was obviously hugely traumatic.)
BA's short build-up is a blink and I concur that it fits with her age but not so much his, neither of his ages particularly considering the era in which he was human.

In the 18th-century, the age of marriage was 15. To be unmarried at 27 was almost sinful and we are well aware that Liam's father expressed his embarrassment liberally.
Even in modern times, I assume the average 27-year-old has had at least one romantic/sexual partner while around 16 is when the first experience tends to happen as was the case for Buffy.

Bottom line, while I don't blame Buffy, for Angel to have indulged a modern teenage crush was rather disgusting.
While true that as old and sexually experienced as he was, this was his first experience being in love as well which put them on somewhat even ground he still had the capacity to handle himself more maturely with her.


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I will give Xander the small benefit of being 16 in The Pack, while Angel was 27 (give or take 200 years). So Angel was way more emotionally mature than Xander, but, yeah, I still agree with you re: X being selfish, inconsiderate, and never properly having to face the consequences of his actions. B & W (and the writers) let him get away with so much.
Yeah, I'll concur that his age and implied home life can somewhat excuse his dismissal of Willow in The Pack. I'll also grant that boys/men prefer to avoid talking about feelings but Willow has been his best friend since kindergarten so one would think he'd be able to better read her body language and have more compassion.

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I can only imagine what our convos would look like if we re-watched an episode where they were dating.
That's an interesting thought. We could give it a go. The Powers know I could use the memory refresher haha.


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I will say Xander comes off as very realistic. He's hugely flawed and that's very human. I've known quite a few guys with the 'Xander Problem.' I just doubt the show knew that was what they were portraying.
Yeah, I suppose he is quite realistic.



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This is the origin story Giles gives in The Harvest:

Quote:
Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures.

Buffy: And vampires.

Xander: Okay, this is where I have a problem. See, because we're talking about vampires. We're having a *talk* with vampires in it.

Willow: Isn't that what we saw last night?

Buffy: No. No, th-those weren't vampires, those were just guys in thundering need of a facial. Or maybe they had rabies. It could have been rabies. A-and that guy turning to dust? Just a trick of light. (Xander gives her a look) That's exactly what I said the first time I saw a vampire. Well, after I was done with the screaming part.

Willow: Oh, I-I need to sit down.

Buffy: You are sitting down.

Willow: Oh. Good for me.

Xander: So vampires are demons?

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.
I wonder how this fits in with Froggy-Angel.

Also, hold up...."infected by the demon's soul"...demons have souls now? So confused.
Hmm. Alright so vampires did begin as their own entities but their deterioration into the remains of humans is still unclear.
"Mixed their blood' and "he was a human form possessed" sound contradictory to me. Mixed blood says hybrid to me, not a possession.

I'm also having trouble understanding how a possessed being can create new ones that both inherit the demonic traits and the vessel.

This is the reason I'd always preferred to think of vampires as corrupted corpses.
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:50 AM
  #69
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Can't wait to see more.
Great, I'll try & post something every few days


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Old 06-24-2020, 11:40 AM
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I love how they're looking at each other in the last image during their training. There's totally bonding going on there.
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:15 AM
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Exactly the reason I tend to lean towards season 3 being where it counted.
I'm suddenly wondering if Lorne specifically waited until the beige-ness faded to have his talk with Angel. As an empathic demon, he had to have noticed it sooner. Fred has no choice of course as she wasn't around until season 3.
You make a good case for S3.

I'll have to concede that S3 is when he 100% unequivocally knew/realized he was in love with her. I think those feelings were largely there at the end of S2, but to what level he was aware of them is debatable.

I also don't like the idea of Angel knowingly being in love with Cordy and then taking off to Tibet for 2 months, so, you know, there's that. I find it more forgivable if he hadn't quite realized the full nature of his feelings yet.

Quote:
Compared to her Angel flashed a neon sign of his feelings, this could also be the reason Fred and Lorne had focused their efforts on him.
Good point.

Quote:
I'm suddenly wondering if Lorne specifically waited until the beige-ness faded to have his talk with Angel. As an empathic demon, he had to have noticed it sooner.
Oh, true. Yeah, Lorne probably did pick up that their feelings were changing. I can see him waiting until the fall out from Angel's beige period was over/their hearts were a bit more healed and open before broaching the subject.

Quote:
I most definitely felt like there was some awareness in that plea because it took him an extra second to throw in "as a friend or co-worker" which almost sounded reluctantly desperate, as though it wasn't what he preferred but would be better than nothing.
Yep, that's exactly what it sounded like to me as well.

Quote:
I do believe that he was first and foremost putting her happiness first.
Agreed. Sadly he's too much of a dumbass (as Cordy would say) to realize that he could've been the source of that happiness.

I wonder what would've happened if he'd confessed his feelings for her instead of pushing her to go on vacation with Groo?
Quote:
Angel to have indulged a modern teenage crush was rather disgusting
Yeeeeeah...Buffy's age during BA will never not bother me . It's one of those things that comes part and parcel with a teen vampire show (which BTVS kinda started out as)...so I accept it, but I don't have to like it. It gives me cognitive dissonance, because I'm aboard the BA train for the ride that is S2, but also, HER AGE. The supernatural elements of it--Slayers and vampires aren't real, after all--do help to make it a bit more palatable, but...
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I concur that it fits with her age but not so much his
Agreed as well, but that issue also stems from the writers' room. Buffy was the titular character and it was her show, so of course BA was told more though her perspective than his...and at the time Joss had no idea Angel would go on to have his own show. So Angel was very much a tool in Buffy's plot until he was able to break free of Sunnydale and truly become his own character.

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Mixed blood says hybrid to me, not a possession.

I'm also having trouble understanding how a possessed being can create new ones that both inherit the demonic traits and the vessel.
Yeah, it's unclear to me. It sounds like both combined: possessed hybrids? Which is weird.

Where do the demons that take up residence in the human's body when they get vamped come from? Are they called up from hell - are their a bunch of "demon souls" in some hell dimension somewhere that use a vamped human body to travel between planes in order to escape said 'hell' and walk earth? Or do they get created from the turning process when said human is bitten?

Did Angelus exist before he was inside Liam?
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Old 06-25-2020, 03:40 AM
  #72
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You make a good case for S3.

I'll have to concede that S3 is when he 100% unequivocally knew/realized he was in love with her. I think those feelings were largely there at the end of S2, but to what level he was aware of them is debatable.
Furthermore, the circumstances of season 3 highlighted/built on his feelings at almost a divine manipulative level, put them to the test even rather than eclipsed them as season 2 did.

One might argue that if the plot hadn't gone in the direction it did, it, giving them an infant and Angel serious competition, the two most common couple creating cliches might have been a suddenly somewhat forced effort to move them forward.

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I also don't like the idea of Angel knowingly being in love with Cordy and then taking off to Tibet for 2 months, so, you know, there's that. I find it more forgivable if he hadn't quite realized the full nature of his feelings yet.
Good point.

Although he had a right to grieve someone important in his life in the manner most comfortable for him, to have grieved an ex that much with an awareness of existing feelings for someone else would have been demeaning.

That trip is some of the strongest ammo in the BA fans' arsenal as it is. For him to have blatantly written Cordy off is the last thing they needed.

However, the fact that'd he'd come back with souvenirs for everyone was very telling that Buffy wasn't all he was thinking about for those two months.


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I wonder what would've happened if he'd confessed his feelings for her instead of pushing her to go on vacation with Groo?
I wish he would have. Did I mention that I hate that vacation?!
We've talked about why it's understandable that he subjected himself to blue balls but it's still a bit frustrating especially with how well fanfics make it work.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Yeeeeeah...Buffy's age during BA will never not bother me . It's one of those things that comes part and parcel with a teen vampire show (which BTVS kinda started out as)...so I accept it, but I don't have to like it. It gives me cognitive dissonance, because I'm aboard the BA train for the ride that is S2, but also, HER AGE. The supernatural elements of it--Slayers and vampires aren't real, after all--do help to make it a bit more palatable, but...
That's a fair point that the supernatural elements saturate it with unrealisticness but I don't feel as though that makes a significant difference. It might mask the inappropriateness for most people but it doesn't eliminate it.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Agreed as well, but that issue also stems from the writers' room. Buffy was the titular character and it was her show, so of course BA was told more though her perspective than his...and at the time Joss had no idea Angel would go on to have his own show. So Angel was very much a tool in Buffy's plot until he was able to break free of Sunnydale and truly become his own character.
You mean that to have had Angel behave appropriately and refrained from romantic involvement with a teenage girl would have been too much of his perspective which would have inappropriately eclipsed her as the show's lead?

I guess I get that on some level but I ultimately disagree with this being acceptable logic for statutory rape.

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Yeah, it's unclear to me. It sounds like both combined: possessed hybrids? Which is weird.

Where do the demons that take up residence in the human's body when they get vamped come from? Are they called up from hell - are their a bunch of "demon souls" in some hell dimension somewhere that use a vamped human body to travel between planes in order to escape said 'hell' and walk earth? Or do they get created from the turning process when said human is bitten?

Did Angelus exist before he was inside Liam?
This is exactly what isn't adding up about the possession angle to me.
A vampire's psychopathic personality is shaped by their previous human life so it would make the most sense if the body mutated into the demon.
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:27 PM
  #73
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One might argue that if the plot hadn't gone in the direction it did, it, giving them an infant and Angel serious competition, the two most common couple creating cliches might have been a suddenly somewhat forced effort to move them forward.
Idk, I feel like they were already there where there feelings were concerned even before Darla showed up pregnant - they just hadn't realized it yet. But I didn't need baby Connor or Groo to 'convince' me to ship them. I'd already fallen for their amazing 2 season + build up.

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That trip is some of the strongest ammo in the BA fans' arsenal as it is.
Is it really? I feel like I would not appreciate 'Heartthrob' at all if I was a hardcore BAer.

Yeah, he took a couple months to grieve, but he recovered from Buffy's death in a way he never recovered from Cordy's.

Quote:
James: "*You* loved someone - with all your heart."

Angel: "Yeah."

James: "No you didn't. - Because if you had you wouldn't be standing here playing games with me. You wouldn't be able to - because once she died or some bastard killed her, it would have killed everything in you."
Ironically, I do feel like 'the fight' goes out of Angel after losing Cordy, and that we never 100% get him back. As we spoke about before, even his great last stand feels partly like a suicide mission.

Quote:
You mean that to have had Angel behave appropriately and refrained from romantic involvement with a teenage girl would have been too much of his perspective which would have inappropriately eclipsed her as the show's lead?
I think that fact that it was a teen vampire show - with a main character who was a 16 year old girl, did lend itself to her love interest being a vampire, yes. It's a popular trope in media (TVD, Twilight, etc...). Iirc, Joss didn't originally want his vampires to be 'sexy' or love interests, but Angel and BA took off like a rocket in popularity with fans.

There's no way for a human/vampire relationship to not veer into uncomfortable territory. Even if Buffy dated a 16 year old vamp who was only just turned, she'd keep aging and he would not, and that'd get creepy quick.

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I guess I get that on some level but I ultimately disagree with this being acceptable logic for statutory rape.
I'm not defending statutory rape. I would never ever excuse an adult having a relationship with a child in real life. Hell no.

Also, the BA age difference does, and always will, make me uncomfortable. Hence the cognitive dissonance.

I'm just saying, for me, that fact that it is fiction + the supernatural elements is what stops me from canceling Angel altogether. I can separate reality and fiction.

Just wondering, how do you reconcile being a huge Angel fan with the fact that he is a statutory rapist?

Are we still watching Dead End tonight?
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Old 06-27-2020, 03:00 PM
  #74
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Idk, I feel like they were already there where there feelings were concerned even before Darla showed up pregnant - they just hadn't realized it yet. But I didn't need baby Connor or Groo to 'convince' me to ship them. I'd already fallen for their amazing 2 season + build up.
Oh, I didn't need Connor or Groo either, CA had me at "I need you back" in TSILA but most fans are not as astute and appreciative of CA as we are. It's such an underrated ship, it's borderlines on insulting.

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Is it really? I feel like I would not appreciate 'Heartthrob' at all if I was a hardcore BAer.

Yeah, he took a couple months to grieve, but he recovered from Buffy's death in a way he never recovered from Cordy's.
One thing I've noticed about BAers is that they wear blinders.
Angel's confession that Buffy's death didn't kill him not to mention that he had the state of mind to pick out gifts for his family while he was away isn't there to them.

The fact that there is no grieving process shown after Cordy's death until ATF just fueled them even more.

Here is an example from Tumblr:


and because I just couldn't ignore this BS, here is my essay response hehe:
https://sympathyfrthedevil.tumblr.co...as-interesting


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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)

Quote:
James: "*You* loved someone - with all your heart."

Angel: "Yeah."

James: "No you didn't. - Because if you had you wouldn't be standing here playing games with me. You wouldn't be able to - because once she died or some bastard killed her, it would have killed everything in you."
Ironically, I do feel like 'the fight' goes out of Angel after losing Cordy, and that we never 100% get him back. As we spoke about before, even his great last stand feels partly like a suicide mission.
That quote was the most epic foreshadow without even meaning to be.
Angel was most definitely less motivated to do the right thing vs. whatever works in season 5.

He confesses as much to Gunn in 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco':

GUNN
You OK?

ANGEL
Yeah. Fine. Like you said, not bad for a day's pay.

GUNN
I know you hate working here, what with the bureaucracy and the fact that most of our employees want us dead. But in-house attacks are down 30% this week. And we've done more good here in a month than Angel investigations did in a year.

ANGEL
I know, I'm just... I don't know, just feeling a bit...

SPIKE
Squishy?

ANGEL
Disconnected.


Gunn assumes that he means he misses the action, the fighting but I'm 100% convinced that he's wrong. It's Cordy's absence in his life, she was his connection to the world, even Doyle called it when she joined the team all the way back in the Pilot.

It was only in YW when he had her back before he understood that it wasn't for good that he started to feel confident again.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
I think that fact that it was a teen vampire show - with a main character who was a 16 year old girl, did lend itself to her love interest being a vampire, yes. It's a popular trope in media (TVD, Twilight, etc...). Iirc, Joss didn't originally want his vampires to be 'sexy' or love interests, but Angel and BA took off like a rocket in popularity with fans.

There's no way for a human/vampire relationship to not veer into uncomfortable territory. Even if Buffy dated a 16 year old vamp who was only just turned, she'd keep aging and he would not, and that'd get creepy quick.
Yeah, I getcha. That's one of the many things that makes CA so special, his being a vampire wasn't much of a factor in their relationship, something she made it one of her missions to ensure (i.e insisting on getting him a hobby in TSILA).

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I'm not defending statutory rape. I would never ever excuse an adult having a relationship with a child in real life. Hell no.

Also, the BA age difference does, and always will, make me uncomfortable. Hence the cognitive dissonance.

I'm just saying, for me, that fact that it is fiction + the supernatural elements is what stops me from canceling Angel altogether. I can separate reality and fiction.

Just wondering, how do you reconcile being a huge Angel fan with the fact that he is a statutory rapist?
Don't worry I know you're not defending statutory rape.

As for my reconciliation. The AtS Angel is NOT the same guy he was in BtVS, he matures and forms healthy relationships (well, for the most part, Darla and Nina are questionable but granted he was pretty messed up both times) as well as builds his own life rather than revolves it around someone else.

That Cordelia was a large rock in that life is on a less dependent and obsessive level. He didn't know what to do with himself without Buffy, whereas he knew what he needed to be doing but was less motivated without Cordy. At least for a little while, until she used her last day on earth to restore his motivation (Whereas Buffy tried to kick him back down as he was getting up *coughRileyfaceslapcough*).


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Are we still watching Dead End tonight?
You betcha, I'm looking forward to it!
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:05 PM
  #75
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Quote:
It's such an underrated ship, it's borderlines on insulting.
I think we're actually more popular than some fans like to think. Sure, things are a bit quiet here now, but that's because ATS has been off the air for 20 years. When I see ATS posts on other media sites, there's always a pleasantly surprising amount of CA support.

Plus, we have a very quality library of fic. And I feel like the truly underrated and overlooked ships don't get that.

Quote:
The fact that there is no grieving process shown after Cordy's death until ATF just fueled them even more.
There was no grieving process because he never stopped grieving. He just...changed. Lost something that made him Angel. And never really got it back.

When Buffy died, he literally said the words "I am okay." He was bothered by how okay he was and that he wasn't more destroyed by it.

Quote:
Cordy: "Then - what's the problem?"
Angel: "That I'm okay. That losing Buffy didn't kill me. That I could deal with it.
He was able to grieve and continue on in a healthy manner.

When he lost Cordy, he sold his soul to the devil. I mean...

Obviously he cared about Buffy, but the way some fans talk as if they are the 'be all, end all' to each other is just not at all supported by his reaction to her death.

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Lastly, In an issue of Angel & Faith he admits trying to resurrect Cordy sometime in between ‘You’re Welcome’ and ‘Why We Fight’ but Wolfram & Hart’s resources were too unreliable and volitle.
I forgot about that. Damn. For him to think about resurrecting her...That's some Elizabeth and James ****. Which, ironically, is what I'd expect out of BA.

Quote:
Gunn assumes that he means he misses the action, the fighting but I'm 100% convinced that he's wrong. It's Cordy's absence in his life, she was his connection to the world, even Doyle called it when she joined the team all the way back in the Pilot.
I hate TCTONC--I find it such a boring filler episode--but, yep, isn't there also a bunch of heavy symbolism about Angel missing his 'hero's heart'?

He just lost Cordy and Connor...feles like he's missing his heart...Hmmm. Wonder what the connection could be there.

Also Angel using the word 'disconnected' when Cordy was his connection (to the Powers, to a livelier world)...

Quote:
Yeah, I getcha. That's one of the many things that makes CA so special, his being a vampire wasn't much of a factor in their relationship, something she made it one of her missions to ensure (i.e insisting on getting him a hobby in TSILA).
True. Ignoring how terrible the whole Jasmine arc is for a second, Cordy becoming part demon also put them on a more even dating field (even though I love my Cordy human, too).

Quote:
Don't worry I know you're not defending statutory rape.
I just wanted to make sure I was being clear because it is a very serious subject matter. Some people (not you) are only too happy to jump to the worst (and wrong) conclusions. I've been accused of being a rape apologist before on Tumblr simply for posting SB content, for example. Which is so far from the truth I don't even have words.

Quote:
As for my reconciliation. The AtS Angel is NOT the same guy he was in BtVS, he matures and forms healthy relationships (well, for the most part, Darla and Nina are questionable but granted he was pretty messed up both times) as well as builds his own life rather than revolves it around someone else.
That's kind of what I was saying before (though I didn't explain it as well).

The Angel of ATS would never date a 16-year-old girl. His dating a teenager was a direct consequence of him originating in Buffy's show, as her love interest.

In a world where BTVS didn't exist, and ATS was its own origin, BA never would've happened. Or if it did, Buffy would've been older. Something more appropriate to his age (when turned, not his vamp age).
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