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Old 06-07-2020, 12:49 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)

She's so cute there. And the way she turns to Wesley with that look like 'Hah ha! I get to drive his car and you don't'.
That she thought she was so special for getting to drive his car was so adorbs.


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I read it last night and it was super cute.

I loved when The Scoobies found CA cuddling. I'm trash for cuddles in fics lol.
And Terra calls them an adorable couple. That's my favorite part!


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I also imagine Angelus originally took on that moniker as a twisted mockery of his sister calling him one.
Exactly, that and as a reference to his deadly charm.

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I wonder when he started going by 'Angel' and dropped the 'us'. And why did he decide to drop the 'us' (if it was indeed him)? I can see it being him reclaiming it by taking on what Kathy called him.
I've wondered that as well.
The earliest we see him going by Angel is in 1943 in 'Why We Fight':

MAN IN BLACK
But... those aren't problems for you... are they?
(walks closer to Angel)
You've been on our radar for some time now, Angelus.

ANGEL
Name's Angel.

MAN IN BLACK
Oh.
(chuckles)
Right. You have a soul now.


This particular wording made the name change (not to mention knowledge of his soul) feel relatively new but that's pure speculation and I don't expect he would have established the name Angel as well as he had Angelus until he'd developed his reputation as a hero in the BtVS timeline.

It's rather odd how different the names are treated when they're actually the exact same name. Angelus is just the word 'angel' in Latin. Though admittedly Angelus does have a more dangerous sound to it and Angel is actually a human name whereas Angelus doesn't pass so much for one.

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Kathy was his sister's name, right? My memory sucks. I should know this with all the CA fic I read lol.
That's right, his sister's name is Kathy. Liam calls her "Sweet Kathy" as he bids her goodbye when his father throws him out of the house.
I wish we'd learned more about his relationship with her.


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Yeah, being called 'Princess' is cute and all, but it'd get a little...dehumanizing? too impersonal? (not sure what to call it) to have him never use her name? It'd feel kinda like a 'are you in love with me or just the idea of me as your princess?' thing.
That's what bothers me about their relationship. That he calls her princess all the time makes something of an objectifying statement of his feelings for her and I have to wonder as well if she had to teach him how to have sex.

It's not as though he had a lot of options for partners in Pylea. Due to his anatomy, he's only sexually compatible with humans but humans are labor animals there, and considering that he'd earned the Groosalugg title in their attempt to kill him, I don' doubt they would have made the same effort to keep him from breeding.

How could she have even taught him, she was inexperienced herself! If Wilson was not her first time, he had to have been her second.

Although she somewhat acted like one, her experience with Wilson is telling that she is NOT a **** and all fic authors unanimously agree. Those that write her having sex in high school give her ONE experience which is the loss of her virginity with a football jerk. Most of them either make Angel or Wilson her first.

I actually read a fic where Groo asks Angel to teach him because he had such a basic idea that Cordy got bored after the first or second time. I can't remember the reason Angel actually agrees to do it because, of course, he doesn't want to.

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I love that that's the line he focused on. Of course.
As do I, it was nice and hilarious to see a bit of Liam pop out of him and how her face is all "What the hell's wrong with you!?".

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Holy crap. Why did I never consider where Groo came from before? I guess I always assumed he found Lorne's cousin in Pylea for info and, in turn, Lorne, when he got to L.A. But you're right that he'd need immediate help upon getting to Earth bc things would be so wildly different from Pylea.
Lorne's cousin is a decent thought but he wouldn't have known about the Hyperion, he never set foot there.

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The portals were randomized too. He could've arrived half way across the world and had to journey to L.A.
Yeah come to think of it, AI was extremely lucky their return portal spat them out in L.A.
Can you imagine Willow waiting there for a couple of days or so and then leaving because they're gone for weeks having to drive back from like NY or have to get a flight back from Paris or Japan or something? If Angel had to leave his car behind in the latter scenario, that would not have gone down well hehe.


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It took her a few years...but in the end she was right. She got her man.
She sure did!
That was such a great line, her confidence is the embodiment of woman goals.
Is it bad that I love how she rubbed in Buffy's face that she saved Angel's night?
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:54 PM
  #47
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Quote:
It's rather odd how different the names are treated when they're actually the exact same name. Angelus is just the word 'angel' in Latin.
I've always thought the same thing. I'm sure it mostly has to do with the writers wanting an easy way for the viewers to differentiate between the two. Finding an in-canon reason for it is a little trickier, but I like your Kathy head canon.

And Angelus was totally arrogant and flashy enough to name himself in reference to his deadly charm (as you put it).

Quote:
That's right, his sister's name is Kathy. Liam calls her "Sweet Kathy" as he bids her goodbye when his father throws him out of the house.
I wish we'd learned more about his relationship with her.
Me too. I wish we'd gotten more of human Liam.

Quote:
I have to wonder as well if she had to teach him how to have sex.
I kind of assumed since he was a champion over there (though also reviled for being a 'cow') that his feats in combat would've caught the eye of a few demon women willing to ~warm his furs. We know from that demon brothel that human/demon can and does happen. I'd need to pay more attention to him in his scenes with Cordy at the end of S2, but he seemed pretty confident/comfortable about the comshucking that he expected to take place.

He very well could've been a virgin, though.

Quote:
write her having sex in high school give her ONE experience which is the loss of her virginity with a football jerk
Honestly, I hope for Cordy's sake she did have sex before Wilson bc *shudder* I can't even imagine how traumatic that whole thing would've been for her, let alone if it was her first time.

Joss writing for Cordelia:



Quote:
I actually read a fic where Groo asks Angel to teach him because he had such a basic idea that Cordy got bored after the first or second time. I can't remember the reason Angel actually agrees to do it because, of course, he doesn't want to.
I think I read that too. Groo was using the alphabet method or something.

CC gave a really interesting interview talking a bit about Cordy's high school dating life on the Buffering--at least I think it was buffering--podcast. She talked about how at the time she was still very sheltered with a religious upbringing and had trouble with some of Cordy's 'making out with boys in closets' scenes. And how it made her question some of her own judgey, internalized thoughts and become more open minded and comfortable with her sexuality.

Quote:
Lorne's cousin is a decent thought but he wouldn't have known about the Hyperion, he never set foot there.
He might've been given a business card? (I'm reaching lol.) He could've known the name of their agency from conversation? I could've sworn he did step foot in AI, but that's probably fic bleeding into reality again.

Quote:
Is it bad that I love how she rubbed in Buffy's face that she saved Angel's night?
I love Buffy Summers to death but I can't not like Cordy, even in that scene. And like you said, even though she was being a bit of a bully, her confidence is still #aspirational.

The second time she claimed she was a slayer that same confidence/boldness also saved her and Buffy's life in The Prom.
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:36 AM
  #48
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:30 PM
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I've always thought the same thing. I'm sure it mostly has to do with the writers wanting an easy way for the viewers to differentiate between the two.
That is a great point, IA.


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Me too. I wish we'd gotten more of human Liam.
I'm reminded of the novel 'Soul Trade' in which a child unconscious in the hospital after having her soul removed (by her knee-deep in debt father no less) reminds Angel of Kathy.

There's a flashback in which Liam is tucking her into bed and she asks him what a soul looks like. He tells her a soul shines with colors and while at the time he was speculating, he finds out he was spot on when he gets his first glimpse at this child's stolen soul in a vial. I think he also tells her that her soul would be the prettiest, it's really sweet.

Basically, demons are using human souls to create a supernatural heroin or something. It's been a while and I actually need to finish it.

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I kind of assumed since he was a champion over there (though also reviled for being a 'cow') that his feats in combat would've caught the eye of a few demon women willing to ~warm his furs. We know from that demon brothel that human/demon can and does happen.
Right, but I was going off of how Groo actually told Cordy that he was only compatible with cows(humans) though considering how he was manipulated into attacking Angel I could see him being told that as a **** blocking lie.

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I'd need to pay more attention to him in his scenes with Cordy at the end of S2, but he seemed pretty confident/comfortable about the comshucking that he expected to take place.
That's true, but again his expected performance of that role was manipulated at least in some part.

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Honestly, I hope for Cordy's sake she did have sex before Wilson bc *shudder* I can't even imagine how traumatic that whole thing would've been for her, let alone if it was her first time.
As do I, and that it was a decent experience with someone who cared about her though I have to doubt that based on her high school reputation and her confession to Buffy that no one, not even the Cordettes saw her as a person vs a social status and a fat wallet.

This is no doubt how authors who write her losing her virginity to an ******* jock in high school formed such logic and validly so.

Unfortunately, I'm quite convinced that Wilson or not, her first time wasn't special or possibly even pleasant. It's truly tragic that in canon she didn't get to have much of the sex life she deserved. So yay for fanfics and sex god Angel!

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Joss writing for Cordelia:

Holy crap! Hardcore unintentional foreshadowing!
He really did have some kind of obsession with making Cordy a demon spawn vessel.


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CC gave a really interesting interview talking a bit about Cordy's high school dating life on the Buffering--at least I think it was buffering--podcast. She talked about how at the time she was still very sheltered with a religious upbringing and had trouble with some of Cordy's 'making out with boys in closets' scenes. And how it made her question some of her own judgey, internalized thoughts and become more open minded and comfortable with her sexuality.
That makes sense. I read that she struggled with the porn in WITW as well and that DB helped her feel comfortable.

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He might've been given a business card? (I'm reaching lol.) He could've known the name of their agency from conversation? I could've sworn he did step foot in AI, but that's probably fic bleeding into reality again.
That happens to me a lot as well and you know my memory can always fail me.

Now I think we need to make 'Belonging' our next watch party ep.
In fact, I wouldn't mind doing the entire Pylea arc one ep at a time. There are a few ways in which I'd have preferred it to go differently but I did like it nonetheless.

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I love Buffy Summers to death but I can't not like Cordy, even in that scene. And like you said, even though she was being a bit of a bully, her confidence is still #aspirational.

The second time she claimed she was a slayer that same confidence/boldness also saved her and Buffy's life in The Prom.
I don't remember the instance in 'The Prom' but there was also her somewhat 'Eternity' parallel moment in 'Homecoming'.
With Buffy and Giles knocked unconscious she had to face Gortch alone armed with nothing but a spatula and her sharp tongue and she totally made him wet his pants! She saved Buffy's life then as well and Giles'.

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Old 06-10-2020, 03:39 PM
  #50
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Some pretty



https://sodemonizemealready.tumblr.c...nt-a-ski-condo
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:24 PM
  #51
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Aww that's a sweet gifset.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:55 PM
  #52
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Look how married they were.

Quote:
There's a flashback in which Liam is tucking her into bed and she asks him what a soul looks like. He tells her a soul shines with colors and while at the time he was speculating, he finds out he was spot on when he gets his first glimpse at this child's stolen soul in a vial. I think he also tells her that her soul would be the prettiest, it's really sweet.

Basically, demons are using human souls to create a supernatural heroin or something. It's been a while and I actually need to finish it.
That actually sounds pretty good. Maybe I should read it.

Quote:
Right, but I was going off of how Groo actually told Cordy that he was only compatible with cows(humans) though considering how he was manipulated into attacking Angel I could see him being told that as a **** blocking lie.
I don't even remember him telling her that so clearly a re-watch is needed.

Quote:
That's true, but again his expected performance of that role was manipulated at least in some part.
True.

I wonder what Groo's stance on the whole comshucking thing was? Was he being pushed into doing it? Did he want to do it and felt he'd earned it as a champion? He did respect Cordy's agency in not wanting to comshuck iirc.

Was it just because she was his 'princess' and he clearly liked her? Would he be so respectful to another human woman or demon woman? I hope so.

This is the most I've thought about Groo in my entire life.

Quote:
This is no doubt how authors who write her losing her virginity to an ******* jock in high school formed such logic and validly so.
There's one fic (I think a Dock fic) that had her lose her virginity to the highschool jock, Kevin, she was dating in 'Prophecy Girl' right before he was killed by vampires.

I think Kevin was a jerk who was just using her, but he died before she could see his true colors, so to her knowledge, he was a good guy and their time together was special. I'd much prefer her first time with Kevin then Wilson, (tho there's some evidence it might've been Wilson), so that's my headcanon.

She seemed pretty crazy about Kevin.

Quote:
Willow: He probably forgot. It's not *that* big a deal.
Cordelia: Uh, you don't understand. I'm not mad! He totally flaked on
me. On me! And I don't even care. God help me, I think it's cute! Oh...
Quote:
It's truly tragic that in canon she didn't get to have much of the sex life she deserved. So yay for fanfics and sex god Angel!
I second this and 100% agree.

Quote:
Now I think we need to make 'Belonging' our next watch party ep.
In fact, I wouldn't mind doing the entire Pylea arc one ep at a time. There are a few ways in which I'd have preferred it to go differently but I did like it nonetheless.
Count me in. I love that arc. Like you said, it's imperfect, but fun, none the less. There's quite a lot of CA goodness. Angel's desperation to get Cordy back is everything. Plus, Angel in the sun is such a cutie.

I know some people dislike those episodes bc it veers into the fantasy/fairy tale genre which ATS doesn't usually do, but that's exactly why I like it.

Quote:
I don't remember the instance in 'The Prom' but there was also her somewhat 'Eternity' parallel moment in 'Homecoming'.
With Buffy and Giles knocked unconscious she had to face Gortch alone armed with nothing but a spatula and her sharp tongue and she totally made him wet his pants! She saved Buffy's life then as well and Giles'.
OMG. My flop memory strikes once again! Sorry, I meant to say 'Homecoming' not 'The Prom'. That's the moment I was talking about.

My super fan card should be revoked.

On the SMG board for the Cordy/Buffy thread, we once used the title 'Because Cordy's mouth saved Buffy's life.'
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Old 06-12-2020, 12:47 AM
  #53
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Look how married they were.
That GIF set is too much, I can't take it!

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That actually sounds pretty good. Maybe I should read it.
So far there hasn't been any CA-ness since it's set in Doyle era season 1 but it's really good nonetheless.


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I wonder what Groo's stance on the whole comshucking thing was? Was he being pushed into doing it? Did he want to do it and felt he'd earned it as a champion? He did respect Cordy's agency in not wanting to comshuck iirc.

Was it just because she was his 'princess' and he clearly liked her? Would he be so respectful to another human woman or demon woman? I hope so.
All great questions.

While he did come to care about her, he didn't seem to mind that he was using her on some level because the purpose of this cumshuck was for him to steal the visions from her nor did he seem to believe it wrong that she was going to be ignorant of that fact.

One could argue that he saw it as an honor rather than abusive, an inverted version of what Wilson did to her and was not aware of the extent of her knowledge but to not have properly checked with her can not be justified.
If memory serves, he just happened to throw the visions clause out there by chance.

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This is the most I've thought about Groo in my entire life.
IKR! Same.

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There's one fic (I think a Dock fic) that had her lose her virginity to the highschool jock, Kevin, she was dating in 'Prophecy Girl' right before he was killed by vampires.

I think Kevin was a jerk who was just using her, but he died before she could see his true colors, so to her knowledge, he was a good guy and their time together was special. I'd much prefer her first time with Kevin then Wilson, (tho there's some evidence it might've been Wilson), so that's my headcanon.

She seemed pretty crazy about Kevin.
I should rewatch that ep, my memory of Kevin is non-existent, all I've got are vague mentions such as this.
From the little I've gathered from such, I didn't think she was dating him, I thought she literally found him dead while confronting him to ask him out. Or was that the fic you were talking about?

Wasn't he the third guy she liked who ended up being more interested in Buffy, the other two being Angel and Owen? If that isn't a case of bad memory, poor Cordy. What is that BS (the statistics I mean, not that there is anything wrong with preferring Buffy)?! Though that would be very Joss.

Becjane and Chelle are at least two authors who have written Cordy bad virginity loss experiences with jocks.

In 'Cursed' by Chelle, we learn that she lost her virginity to a jock named Rick in the back of his car and it was a drunken quickie (for clarification, it was just he who was drunk). That's all the detail we get but it's heavily implied that it was uncomfortable for her and when she's having sex with Angel later it's directly established that she's never climaxed before.

In 'Mistletoe Mansion' by Becjane, when Angel and Cordelia are sent not just into the past but into their past bodies, Cordelia tells Angel that she's a virgin again.
We don't get details of her first experience or even the identity of her partner so it's possible that he was a clueless virgin himself rather than a jerk but when Angel takes her she's surprised that it was painless (and it doesn't even occur to Angel to consider the possible scenarios, all he can compute is Cordelia + pain = his predecessor making his hate list ).

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Count me in. I love that arc. Like you said, it's imperfect, but fun, none the less. There's quite a lot of CA goodness. Angel's desperation to get Cordy back is everything.
How Angel uses his Pylean vamp mode to fight for her even though he's literally petrified of it.

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Plus, Angel in the sun is such a cutie.



Not to mention his obsession with his reflection and how Cordy has a mini heart attack when she sees it.

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I know some people dislike those episodes bc it veers into the fantasy/fairy tale genre which ATS doesn't usually do, but that's exactly why I like it.
Actually that never occurred to me. It does have some fantasy/fairytale elements but it's not just a pile of stereotypical cliches, for a series that's set in a supernatural multiverse, it's believable.

I personally like how the alternate dimension effects Angel physically and the insight into Lorne's origins.

It's also the one and only time Cordy gets a vision from the past (Fred's entrapment) which was unique.

FYI it's CC's favorite arc! She mentioned this in a tweet in which she expressed sorrow that the wildfire here in California had destroyed the original Pylea sets.

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OMG. My flop memory strikes once again! Sorry, I meant to say 'Homecoming' not 'The Prom'. That's the moment I was talking about.
Hehe, I kind of wondered.

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My super fan card should be revoked.
Mine too perhaps, there are plenty of things brought up here I don't remember. For example, Cordy wanting to ask Angel to dance at the Bronze in--what was it, 'Reptile Boy'?

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On the SMG board for the Cordy/Buffy thread, we once used the title 'Because Cordy's mouth saved Buffy's life.'
I find it interesting that there is a Buffy/Cordelia thread considering they weren't really friends.
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Old 06-12-2020, 04:20 PM
  #54
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Quote:
So far there hasn't been any CA-ness since it's set in Doyle era season 1 but it's really good nonetheless.
It sounds like a good Angel character piece, which I am here for (though of course, any CA is always the most welcome bonus).

Quote:
While he did come to care about her, he didn't seem to mind that he was using her on some level because the purpose of this cumshuck was for him to steal the visions from her nor did he seem to believe it wrong that she was going to be ignorant of that fact.

One could argue that he saw it as an honor rather than abusive, an inverted version of what Wilson did to her and was not aware of the extent of her knowledge but to not have properly checked with her can not be justified.
If memory serves, he just happened to throw the visions clause out there by chance.
I can't remember this well, though I do vaguely recall him just expecting her to be happy to give him the visions. Our convos are making me more intrigued to re-watch the arc haha.

Quote:
From the little I've gathered from such, I didn't think she was dating him, I thought she literally found him dead while confronting him to ask him out. Or was that the fic you were talking about?
I think she was dating him. She's kissing him in the car in the opening of the episode. He was also helping her set up for the dance like a boyfriend might.

Quote:
Kevin: I'll get everything tonight after practice. The guys'll help me.
Cordelia: Well, it's all in the A-V room. The sound system, and the
decorations... And, oh, Aura needs help, um, moving the coolers.
Kevin: Don't sweat it!
Cordelia: Well, bring everything to the Bronze, and I'll meet you there
in the morning!
Kevin: Done!
Cordelia: (giggles) You're so sweet! Why're you so sweet?
Kevin: I dunno! 'Cause I'm usually mean as a snake!
She smiles at him.

She also says this in the episode: Cordelia: I was sitting where Kevin and I used to park, and all of a sudden these things are coming at me!

So she and Kevin had 'car dates' more than once.

She found him dead after he didn't show up at the Bronze with the equipment like promised.

Quote:
Wasn't he the third guy she liked who ended up being more interested in Buffy, the other two being Angel and Owen? If that isn't a case of bad memory, poor Cordy. What is that BS (the statistics I mean, not that there is anything wrong with preferring Buffy)?! Though that would be very Joss.
I don't recall Kevin having a thing for Buffy. He barely had lines/was a character for us to know either way, and I think was only in the one episode? Wasn't her date in 'Out of Mind, Out of Sight' named Mitch? I guess Kevin was Mitch's replacement.

I also remember her dating Devon in early S2 (also an ass).
Xander, Owen, and Angel are the three I can think of who she expressed interest in but preferred Buffy.

Oh, also Richard, the complete jerk canoe in Reptile Boy. Cordy was flirting with him, and he and his friend had her introduce them to Buffy.

Quote:
In 'Cursed' by Chelle, we learn that she lost her virginity to a jock named Rick in the back of his car and it was a drunken quickie (for clarification, it was just he who was drunk). That's all the detail we get but it's heavily implied that it was uncomfortable for her and when she's having sex with Angel later it's directly established that she's never climaxed before.

In 'Mistletoe Mansion' by Becjane, when Angel and Cordelia are sent not just into the past but into their past bodies, Cordelia tells Angel that she's a virgin again.
We don't get details of her first experience or even the identity of her partner so it's possible that he was a clueless virgin himself rather than a jerk but when Angel takes her she's surprised that it was painless (and it doesn't even occur to Angel to consider the possible scenarios, all he can compute is Cordelia + pain = his predecessor making his hate list ).
I'm not sure I read either of those fics . I need to amend that quickly. Those sound like quality reads and I like both those authors' other work.

Quote:
How Angel uses his Pylean vamp mode to fight for her even though he's literally petrified of it.


Not to mention how hot and badass he looks when he challenges Groo to a fight with the torch.

Quote:
It's also the one and only time Cordy gets a vision from the past (Fred's entrapment) which was unique.
Interesting point. I never put that together before.

After the Jasmine ****ery in S4...now I have to wonder if it even was a vision from the Powers, or some of Illyria's worshipers making it happen. Unless TPTB wanted Fred to become Illyria?

The Powers get more and more useless the more I watch this show.

Quote:
FYI it's CC's favorite arc! She mentioned this in a tweet in which she expressed sorrow that the wildfire here in California had destroyed the original Pylea sets.
Aw, that's so sad about the fire.

Quote:
For example, Cordy wanting to ask Angel to dance at the Bronze in--what was it, 'Reptile Boy'?
That was in When She Was Bad (the S2 pilot).

It was when she was confronting Buffy about her treatment of Xander and Willow.

Quote:
Buffy: I think it's about time you start minding your own business.
Cordelia: It's long past.
Buffy: (turns and goes) Nighty-night. (flips up her hood)
Cordelia: I'll just see if Angel feels like dancing.
Sadly, we'll never know if Cordy actually was going to ask him to dance, or was just saying that...or if Angel would've said yes or not, bc Cor was immediately kidnapped before she could go back into The Bronze.
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Last edited by straws; 06-12-2020 at 05:33 PM
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Old 06-13-2020, 04:54 PM
  #55
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Old 06-13-2020, 07:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
It sounds like a good Angel character piece, which I am here for (though of course, any CA is always the most welcome bonus).
If you want an excellent CA novel recommendation, 'Haunted' by Jeff Mariotte.
It's set in late season 2, post-'Dead End' but pre-Pylea and explores the possibility of Cordelia successfully launching her acting career and leaving the team (It's, of course, a given that she doesn't).
Mariotte is the best of the novel authors, very in tune with the characters, tones, and atmosphere, probably because I heard that he's actually worked for Joss.

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I can't remember this well, though I do vaguely recall him just expecting her to be happy to give him the visions. Our convos are making me more intrigued to re-watch the arc haha.
Yes. I believe that's accurate which further validates my argument. He didn't consider her feelings at all nor seemed to have a sense of the wrongness of the situation even with the Pylean priests manipulating him.
He was basically a drone. Something Cordy's influence apparently changed since he did seem to be a bit more of an individual in season 3.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
I think she was dating him. She's kissing him in the car in the opening of the episode. He was also helping her set up for the dance like a boyfriend might.

Quote:
Kevin: I'll get everything tonight after practice. The guys'll help me.
Cordelia: Well, it's all in the A-V room. The sound system, and the
decorations... And, oh, Aura needs help, um, moving the coolers.
Kevin: Don't sweat it!
Cordelia: Well, bring everything to the Bronze, and I'll meet you there
in the morning!
Kevin: Done!
Cordelia: (giggles) You're so sweet! Why're you so sweet?
Kevin: I dunno! 'Cause I'm usually mean as a snake!
She smiles at him.

She also says this in the episode: Cordelia: I was sitting where Kevin and I used to park, and all of a sudden these things are coming at me!

So she and Kevin had 'car dates' more than once.

She found him dead after he didn't show up at the Bronze with the equipment like promised.
Hehe, see how crap my memory is.


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I don't recall Kevin having a thing for Buffy. He barely had lines/was a character for us to know either way, and I think was only in the one episode?
See above statement.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Wasn't her date in 'Out of Mind, Out of Sight' named Mitch? I guess Kevin was Mitch's replacement.
Mitch, I remember from reading it the Cordelia Chronicles novel (basically a novel that compiles 3 Cordy-centric episodes in BtVS, there are 2 that I am aware of or presumably so because the one I have is called "Volume 1").

Marcie had roughed him up to the point of hospitalization and Cordy was more annoyed that his injuries would ruin her homecoming pictures or something. Not her best moment.

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I also remember her dating Devon in early S2 (also an ass).
I definitely remember Devon (the drummer in Oz's band, Dingos Ate My Baby) because he's the one who stood her up in 'Halloween'.
She didn't deserve that but we gotta give him props for giving us one of the tragic few CA moments in BtVS.

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Xander, Owen, and Angel are the three I can think of who she expressed interest in but preferred Buffy.

Oh, also Richard, the complete jerk canoe in Reptile Boy. Cordy was flirting with him, and he and his friend had her introduce them to Buffy.
Hey, I remembered one right, Owen hehe and how could I forget Xander? Though Xander is more half and half. Yes, he preferred Buffy but at least at some point and on a certain level I can believe he did care about Cordelia. I mean they were together long enough.

Whereas Owen and Angel wouldn't give her the time of day and from what you said Richard actually used her to get to Buffy.

I've said it so many times, I need a full season 1-3 BtVS rewatch but fear I couldn't get through BA with my sanity intact.
Perhaps I can just target the episodes we bring up here such as 'Reptile Boy' and 'When She Was Bad'.

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I'm not sure I read either of those fics . I need to amend that quickly. Those sound like quality reads and I like both those authors' other work.
Both are on my rec list here:
https://thewolfsmoon.livejournal.com/30566.html


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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Interesting point. I never put that together before.

After the Jasmine ****ery in S4...now I have to wonder if it even was a vision from the Powers, or some of Illyria's worshipers making it happen. Unless TPTB wanted Fred to become Illyria?
Well, I don't know about Illyria but we're told by Skip in 'Inside Out' that every major event in the series was designed to lead up to Jasmine from Cordy inheriting the visions to Connor's birth and kidnapping. Perhaps even Angel's move to L.A though that isn't among the events specifically mentioned.

I've explained before why I believe this is bull**** but you make a compelling point that the anomaly of that Fred vision does beg the question of if there was some form of manipulation in it.
It was quite convenient that that vision hit when Lorne had come to AI with the Drakken (sp?) problem which originated in Pylea. The Powers are NEVER so accomodating.

That reminds me, we get another unusual vision experience in 'Dead End' when Angel has Cordelia intentionally conjure a vision a second time and is able to actually explore the setting and zoom in on certain details. Remember this was pre-'Birthday' and we never see Doyle do that.

So many loose ends.

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The Powers get more and more useless the more I watch this show.
Lol, word. That's another popular fic trope, Cordy griping about how vague and useless the PTB are.


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That was in When She Was Bad (the S2 pilot).

It was when she was confronting Buffy about her treatment of Xander and Willow.

Quote:
Buffy: I think it's about time you start minding your own business.
Cordelia: It's long past.
Buffy: (turns and goes) Nighty-night. (flips up her hood)
Cordelia: I'll just see if Angel feels like dancing.

Sadly, we'll never know if Cordy actually was going to ask him to dance, or was just saying that...or if Angel would've said yes or not, bc Cor was immediately kidnapped before she could go back into The Bronze.
Boo!

I could see Angel giving her an uncomfortable "Uh--I don't dance" but could she have convinced him at this point as she could have in AtS? If so, would she have regretted it after seeing him dance?

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We still on for an ATS viewing party tonight? You can reach me here or on Discord if you need to.
We're so on! This conversation is getting me excited for the Pylea arc.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:15 PM
  #57
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Quote:
If you want an excellent CA novel recommendation, 'Haunted' by Jeff Mariotte.
It's set in late season 2, post-'Dead End' but pre-Pylea and explores the possibility of Cordelia successfully launching her acting career and leaving the team (It's, of course, a given that she doesn't).
Mariotte is the best of the novel authors, very in tune with the characters, tones, and atmosphere, probably because I heard that he's actually worked for Joss.
Sounds like an interesting read. I haven't been in the mood to read lately (other than some fic) even though it's something I normally love to do. I should try getting my reader's groove back with the After The Fall comics and some Angel novels.

Quote:
Yes. I believe that's accurate which further validates my argument.
Oh, I was agreeing with you there. I don't think his blind expectation that Cordy hand over her visions to him wins him any points.
Quote:
He was basically a drone. Something Cordy's influence apparently changed since he did seem to be a bit more of an individual in season 3.
She has that affect.

But, IA, she needed someone more strong willed who could match her. Groo, as sweet as he was, would bore her in the long run, I think.

Quote:
Marcie had roughed him up to the point of hospitalization and Cordy was more annoyed that his injuries would ruin her homecoming pictures or something. Not her best moment.
Not her most shining moment, indeed, but CC plays it so well that I do get an inappropriate chuckle when we see Cordy more upset about the fate of her photos than poor Mitch.

Quote:
She didn't deserve that but we gotta give him props for giving us one of the tragic few CA moments in BtVS.
Good point. You just made me thankful to Devon for something! I never thought I'd see the day.

Quote:
Though Xander is more half and half. Yes, he preferred Buffy but at least at some point and on a certain level I can believe he did care about Cordelia. I mean they were together long enough.
Idk, I can never quite count Xander as being in the 'Cordy' camp, though I see your argument for 50/50. Yes, he did feel something for her, but I think it was mostly lust. Did he even like her as a person? I don't think he thought all that highly of her, other than she was hot and popular (an ego stroke) and actually gave him the time of day when Buffy wouldn't. I always got the feeling Xander would've dropped Cordelia in a second if Buffy had expressed even the slightest interest in him.

It bothers me how blatantly he panted over Buffy while still dating Cordy, too. And he basically hit on Faith right in front of Cordy in Faith, Hope, & Trick, to which even Cordy was annoyed by it.

Quote:
I've said it so many times, I need a full season 1-3 BtVS rewatch but fear I couldn't get through BA with my sanity intact.
Perhaps I can just target the episodes we bring up here such as 'Reptile Boy' and 'When She Was Bad'.
Or you could fast-forward through any particularly unfavorable scenes, or maybe watch only Cordy's scenes?


Quote:
That reminds me, we get another unusual vision experience in 'Dead End' when Angel has Cordelia intentionally conjure a vision a second time and is able to actually explore the setting and zoom in on certain details. Remember this was pre-'Birthday' and we never see Doyle do that.
Wow. I forgot all about that vision. I feel like re-watching that scene now because you're right that it's not something the show properly explored. My interest is piqued.


Quote:
Both are on my rec list here:
Thanks.

Quote:
I could see Angel giving her an uncomfortable "Uh--I don't dance" but could she have convinced him at this point as she could have in AtS? If so, would she have regretted it after seeing him dance?
Angel was pissed after watching Buffy sexy dance with Xander right in front of him. If Cordy had asked him to dance...maybe he was angry/worked up enough that shades of Liam or Angelus would've come out and he would've taken Cordy up on her dance/any flirting and indulged in some of his own urges? Or is that just my wishful thinking? I don't think he would've gone far with it...but maybe they might've had a sexually charged moment.
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Last edited by straws; 06-15-2020 at 09:22 PM
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:58 PM
  #58
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Sounds like an interesting read. I haven't been in the mood to read lately (other than some fic) even though it's something I normally love to do. I should try getting my reader's groove back with the After The Fall comics and some Angel novels.
I've been so hooked on fanfics both CA and Lucifer that I've been neglecting 'Soul Trade'. I only even started it on a road trip and actually ended up accessing a fanfic on my phone for the trip back.
I have so many other books I need to read as well.

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But, IA, she needed someone more strong willed who could match her. Groo, as sweet as he was, would bore her in the long run, I think.
Oh most definitely. Hell, he was pretty much her Diet-Angel to borrow a term I heard in a YT video.
The guy was a champion with a secure soul whom she even made up to look like Angel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Idk, I can never quite count Xander as being in the 'Cordy' camp, though I see your argument for 50/50. Yes, he did feel something for her, but I think it was mostly lust. Did he even like her as a person? I don't think he thought all that highly of her, other than she was hot and popular (an ego stroke) and actually gave him the time of day when Buffy wouldn't. I always got the feeling Xander would've dropped Cordelia in a second if Buffy had expressed even the slightest interest in him.
I'm pretty sure he didn't even know her as a person any more than anyone else did nor did he try.

I agree that their relationship was superficial lust and a Buffy supplement for Xander but something real was at least starting to grow between them just before he threw it in the trash for a face suck with Willow.

He did give her the gold locket and didn't it have an inscription even, something he'd clearly put thought into and if memory serves felt at least a shred of guilt for hurting her.
He visited her in the hospital and when he stumbled upon her family's IRS trouble he respected her request for secrecy, a request she arguably had no right to make of him after she revenge gossiped about his abusive father I believe it was. He even bought her prom dress.
Granted most of my memory here is from references in fanfics and here in this thread.

On another note in the same subject; I hate how easily Willow got off, how Oz was hurt for all of two minutes, and then forgave her! Then again, it was quite rare for any of the Scoobies to have to suffer consequences for their actions. Even Xander got off the affair relatively easy compared to poor Cordy. No one other than her, the victim, except perhaps Willow really held it against him (though again going off of fanfics here).


Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
It bothers me how blatantly he panted over Buffy while still dating Cordy, too. And he basically hit on Faith right in front of Cordy in Faith, Hope, & Trick, to which even Cordy was annoyed by it.
I did not remember that ugh. *******.

There were also moments between Xander and Willow that led up that fateful make-out session.
in 'Homecoming' there is a scene between them in her room where she was trying on dresses for him and there's some heavy ****ing flirting and tension on both ends to the extent that they practically ripped each other's clothes off.
Tsk tsk, Greenie.

Ironic, while checking the episode transcript I noticed it references 'How' by Lisa Leob being the background song and after I came to like that song from hearing it in the film 'Jack Frost' I've imagined it as Cordy's Xander breakup song. It completely fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Or you could fast-forward through any particularly unfavorable scenes, or maybe watch only Cordy's scenes?
Pretty much any BA scene would be unfavorable which is like 75% of seasons 1-3.
That reminds me, a former member of this thread, FuriosityShell once told me that BA is actually comical in the Spanish dub because they sound like a Spanish soap opera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Wow. I forgot all about that vision. I feel like re-watching that scene now because you're right that it's not something the show properly explored. My interest is piqued.
We could add 'Dead End' to our watch list, it does have some good CA!


Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Angel was pissed after watching Buffy sexy dance with Xander right in front of him. If Cordy had asked him to dance...maybe he was angry/worked up enough that shades of Liam or Angelus would've come out and he would've taken Cordy up on her dance/any flirting and indulged in some of his own urges? Or is that just my wishful thinking? I don't think he would've gone far with it...but maybe they might've had a sexually charged moment.
I DO NOT like the idea of Angel showing interest in Cordy just to get back at Buffy that's not fair to her and doesn't make him any better than Xander but he did do somewhat just that in SAR.
There seemed to be contempt in his declaration that "Cordelia told me the truth" because Buffy had lied to him about taking the night off.
Hence, I concur that he might have accepted her dance invitation as an act of revenge.
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Old 06-18-2020, 06:15 PM
  #59
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Quote:
I've been so hooked on fanfics both CA and Lucifer that I've been neglecting 'Soul Trade'. I only even started it on a road trip and actually ended up accessing a fanfic on my phone for the trip back.
I cannot blame you for prioritizing fanfic reading. I do the same. I've been getting back into CA fic lately - in part due to your awesome recs in here.

I finished 'Cursed' last night and, wow, what a beautiful fic! The ending stayed with me. So powerful and very CA.

Quote:
Oh most definitely. Hell, he was pretty much her Diet-Angel to borrow a term I heard in a YT video.
The guy was a champion with a secure soul whom she even made up to look like Angel.
LMAO. Diet-Angel is a good phrase.

Her giving Groo a makeover into looking like Angel had to be the one really 'Cordy! You're being waaaay too oblivious!! Come on!' moment for me in the show. Because I'm usually pretty understanding of why she'd bury her feelings for Angel/not pick up on his. But, phew, that was rough.

Of course, as we've discussed before...it's possible there was a little Jasmine influence taking root already due to whatever Skip did to her...

Quote:
I agree that their relationship was superficial lust and a Buffy supplement for Xander but something real was at least starting to grow between them just before he threw it in the trash for a face suck with Willow.
Not real enough...since as soon as Willow was taken he was suddenly into her - despite her crushing on him for most of their childhood. His immediate issue/jealously with Oz in Phases is so gross. And, of course, he complained about Oz right in front of Cordy, once again devaluing her as his gf right in front of her.

Quote:
He did give her the gold locket and didn't it have an inscription even, something he'd clearly put thought into and if memory serves felt at least a shred of guilt for hurting her.
Even the locket gift is cheapened for me because he gets approval of it from Buffy before giving it to Cordy and basically says he's only with Cordy bc Buffy is unavailable in the opening scene of the episode.

Quote:
Xander: (chuckles) Okay, big yuks. When are you guys gonna stop making
fun of me for dating Cordelia?
Buffy: I'm sorry. But never. (Xander nods, smiles and looks down) I
just think you could find somebody more... better.
Xander: Uh, parallel universe, maybe. (looks up) Here the only other
person I'm interested in is, um... unavailable.
Also, ew at them talking about Cordy like Xander is somehow too good for her. This is the same guy who violates her mind & bodily autonomy later in the episode by trying to cast a love spell in order to crush her for dumping him...

The Cordy stan in me is triggered by that scene.

Also, I can't remember if the locket has an inscription? I know the weird bracelet he gave Buffy in The Witch did.

Quote:
when he stumbled upon her family's IRS trouble he respected her request for secrecy, a request she arguably had no right to make of him after she revenge gossiped about his abusive father I believe it was. He even bought her prom dress.
Okay, I will grant him that. I wonder how much of it was him being selfless, and how much of it was bc he felt guilty and wanted to atone in some way for cheating on her.

Quote:
Then again, it was quite rare for any of the Scoobies to have to suffer consequences for their actions.
So true.

For ex, when Faith killed a guy, she went to prison. Williow got to go on a lovely paid vacation with Giles. I know there's more to it than that (Faith didn't feel like she was in control of herself...I think she felt it was safer for others if she was locked up, etc) but, ugh, that's always annoyed me lol.

Quote:
Pretty much any BA scene would be unfavorable which is like 75% of seasons 1-3.
When I was re-watching some S2 episodes (of the awful BTVS HD 'remaster') the other month, I was really taken aback by how little BA were a thing before he went all evil. When you binge watch episodes, they date for like 2 weeks before he turns. Surprise & Innocence didn't pack the punch for me it it did in the past. Though it could've also been the mood I was in...idk...sometimes I'll watch something and be like 'meh' and other times I'll be like 'ALL THE FEELS' .

Have you seen the Passion of The Nerd's episode guide where he points out the Bangel Speak?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPB0QVahC0
Time stamp - 3:22.

Quote:
We could add 'Dead End' to our watch list, it does have some good CA!
Oh, sounds fun! It does have great CA.

Also, if you ever wanted to re-watch Halloween, Reptile Boy, or some Sunnydale CA episodes together, that could be fun too.

Quote:
I DO NOT like the idea of Angel showing interest in Cordy just to get back at Buffy that's not fair to her and doesn't make him any better than Xander but he did do somewhat just that in SAR.
There seemed to be contempt in his declaration that "Cordelia told me the truth" because Buffy had lied to him about taking the night off.
Hence, I concur that he might have accepted her dance invitation as an act of revenge.
In my version he's not 100% using her. Like, yeah, maybe it starts that way--as him only dancing with her bc she's hot and he's annoyed at Buffy so he lets Liam out of his cage a little--but it would of course blow up in his face, because he'd like Cordy waaaaay more than he ever would've guessed and there'd be a spark of something real that occurred when they danced together. If I was writing this as a fic, I'd then have that spark change the entire course of S2. Explore what would happen if Angel and Cordy started becoming friends...or more...earlier.

A bit OT, but, Cordy & Faith really could've bonded over the whole 'coming in second to Buffy' thing.
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:36 PM
  #60
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I cannot blame you for prioritizing fanfic reading. I do the same. I've been getting back into CA fic lately - in part due to your awesome recs in here.

I finished 'Cursed' last night and, wow, what a beautiful fic! The ending stayed with me. So powerful and very CA.
I can't put it any better, the whole ancients concept is so intriguing and in-depth and I appreciated the little bonus fix that Angel returned to the table to continue his night with Cordy in the 'Halloween' scene. Even though Buffy had inadvertently ruined the mood by giving Cordy time to realize that she'd let down her wall and threw it back up which heavily frustrated Angel.

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Her giving Groo a makeover into looking like Angel had to be the one really 'Cordy! You're being waaaay too oblivious!! Come on!' moment for me in the show. Because I'm usually pretty understanding of why she'd bury her feelings for Angel/not pick up on his. But, phew, that was rough.

Of course, as we've discussed before...it's possible there was a little Jasmine influence taking root already due to whatever Skip did to her...
Except it STILL wasn't obvious enough to Angel and Cordelia themselves. I've said it before, both buried themselves so deep in denial it was a bit ridiculous.
Ridiculous enough that perhaps that was Jasmine, at least in some part.


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Not real enough...since as soon as Willow was taken he was suddenly into her - despite her crushing on him for most of their childhood. His immediate issue/jealously with Oz in Phases is so gross. And, of course, he complained about Oz right in front of Cordy, once again devaluing her as his gf right in front of her.

Even the locket gift is cheapened for me because he gets approval of it from Buffy before giving it to Cordy and basically says he's only with Cordy bc Buffy is unavailable in the opening scene of the episode.

Also, ew at them talking about Cordy like Xander is somehow too good for her. This is the same guy who violates her mind & bodily autonomy later in the episode by trying to cast a love spell in order to crush her for dumping him...

The Cordy stan in me is triggered by that scene.
Ugh, alright I'm done here. I can't believe I was even attempting to give him credit, to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Okay, I will grant him that. I wonder how much of it was him being selfless, and how much of it was bc he felt guilty and wanted to atone in some way for cheating on her.
That crossed my mind as well. I'm sure there was plenty of guilt in there. I almost didn't even count the dress because it hardly meant as much as Angel's clothing apology in 'Disharmony' but I figured it counted for something that he seemingly cared about how much the Prom meant to her. Unless my clearly horrible memory got that one wrong as well.

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Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
So true.

For ex, when Faith killed a guy, she went to prison. Williow got to go on a lovely paid vacation with Giles. I know there's more to it than that (Faith didn't feel like she was in control of herself...I think she felt it was safer for others if she was locked up, etc) but, ugh, that's always annoyed me lol.
It's not nearly on as large a scale as Faith or Willow but Xander gets off again in OMWF for being the one to cause the musical spell.

On a side note, it's a good thing there wasn't a musical episode of AtS with CA's singing abilities. I don't know if the rest of the cast can sing.
I suppose they could have been dubbed but after we've seen them "sing" on screen before that would have been a bit awkward even if the writers added the excuse that their spell autotuned the singing impaired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
When I was re-watching some S2 episodes (of the awful BTVS HD 'remaster') the other month, I was really taken aback by how little BA were a thing before he went all evil. When you binge watch episodes, they date for like 2 weeks before he turns. Surprise & Innocence didn't pack the punch for me it it did in the past. Though it could've also been the mood I was in...idk...sometimes I'll watch something and be like 'meh' and other times I'll be like 'ALL THE FEELS' .
Wait, there was only two weeks in-between 'Angel' and 'Surprise'/'Innocence'?
If my memory serves me for once, though somehow I doubt it, BA never truly came back from the Angelus saga which would mean that essentially their entire romantic relationship was two weeks long.
I knew it lacked development but damn.

Still, though, BA is very much there while Angelus was around, it was his whole motive for terrorizing Sunnydale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Have you seen the Passion of The Nerd's episode guide where he points out the Bangel Speak?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPB0QVahC0
Time stamp - 3:22.
I have not seen his material, I shall have to check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
Oh, sounds fun! It does have great CA.

Also, if you ever wanted to re-watch Halloween, Reptile Boy, or some Sunnydale CA episodes together, that could be fun too.
I'm all for it, I could use a brush up on my BtVS CA as you've recently seen hehe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
In my version he's not 100% using her. Like, yeah, maybe it starts that way--as him only dancing with her bc she's hot and he's annoyed at Buffy so he lets Liam out of his cage a little--but it would of course blow up in his face, because he'd like Cordy waaaaay more than he ever would've guessed and there'd be a spark of something real that occurred when they danced together. If I was writing this as a fic, I'd then have that spark change the entire course of S2. Explore what would happen if Angel and Cordy started becoming friends...or more...earlier.
Now that I would approve of, I'd love to read such a fic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by straws (View Post)
A bit OT, but, Cordy & Faith really could've bonded over the whole 'coming in second to Buffy' thing.
So true.
I believe Cordy and Faith could have made badass BFFs and both kept Angel double grounded.
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