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If I watch it, it's 100% going to be for him.

Hmmm. I'm gonna have to rewatch Orpheus. It was the one episode other than Awakening I had liked of season 4 primarily for the glimpses into Angel's past.
I found Angel's conflict with the man who'd been shot in the diner robbery to have been brilliant (Is it still a sin to feed on a victim he did not kill himself?), it highlighted his character growth well.

Admittedly, however, the vision quest itself was strange. I never quite understood what caused it and IA about the Angel vs. Angelus fight.
That would have been a lot more substantial and relevant had it been the present/champion Angel rather than 70's hobo Angel. Using the concept to symbolize the inner struggle between the soul and the demon instead of it being Angelus scrutinizing his past would have been quite profound.

In retrospect considering Angelus's MO is to go at the most important people in Angel's life and that he was not aware of Cordy's possession, he was inconsistent in this regard. I remember him verbally going after Connor and Fred but entirely ignoring Cordelia (obviously not counting Jordy's stupid and pointless attempt as the beastmaster to recruit him as an ally). I, however, could be remembering that wrong. I've never rewatched season 4.


Right, forgot about that whole thing. Though an exception was supposed to have occurred for YW and TGIQ as well (SMG had also been requested to appear in the latter but again declined due to a scheduling conflict with The Grudge or so I heard).


Agreed and how Wesley tries to insist that Angel fire her because she's lazy and unfocused (which BTW was so out of line, Cordy had been there first) but as far as I can remember Angel entirely ignores him.

straws

That does sound interesting, and, honestly, I barely remember it, so maybe a re-watch is in order for me as well. But, ugh, season 4 is such a chore to re-watch.

There was that moment where Angelus tried to grab "Cordy" through the bars, but I can't remember what Jasmindelia and Angelus were talking about.

Shame we never got more Cordy & Angelus interactions because I loved her handling herself and outsmarting him in Eternity.
Yep. Angel was not here for Wesley's complaints at all.

starryeyesxx

I don't think that Wesley wanted Angel to fire her, but he just felt like she needed a talking to

But Expecting was a pretty good ep for them

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IA. If I were gonna rewatch Orpheus it would be alone.

Ah, well that's something at least but I don't feel as though Angelus gave enough of a crap about how important Cordy was to Angel.

As did I.
That she was able to control Angelus, the scourge of Europe with a bottle of spring water was absolutely amazing even if it was just for a moment.
I'd have loved to have more of that kind of interaction between Cordy and Angelus in season 4.

That might be, as I said it has been a while but I'm about 65% sure he wanted her fired.

straws

Same. We were so robbed.




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His sheer disbelief. (I also like to think he was a bit worried for her.)

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And she was robbed. In so many ways!

It's cute how he gets this weak, awkward smile with "You actually live here?" like he's attempting to pretend to go for humor but it's clear in his eyes that he's worried for her and he stops trying in the 4th panel.

We did pretty much decide that he started cooking to take care of her since no one seems to remember him cooking in BtVS.

BTW, my stepsister turned on some of Angel on Mother's Day (she's a huge fan herself), through RWAV to be exact, and in the pilot, we do see Cordy sit down to eat a star-shaped sandwich she unwraps from a napkin. She totally took it from that penthouse party. This heavily suggests that she needed these parties not just to find a career starter but to feed herself.
Angel could have somehow noticed that she had about as much food in her apartment as he did.

Don't worry, I want to watch RWAV again with you for our watch parties. It gets loud when my stepsister's family is here especially because she has two daughters, a 5-year-old and an almost 1-year-old. I didn't hear a word of Angel's pep talk to Cordy and totally missed the peanut butter for a family photo.
We're careful about having them over BTW which we only recently started doing again.

Are we still on for 'Expecting' on Saturday at 9pm/12am?

I just realized that her plan "Home, hotel, hotel, husband" is kind of an exact one-worded timeline of her progression in both shows.

Home = Her parent's estate in Sunnydale
Hotel = Most fics have her staying in a motel after the whole IRS thing and I accept that as headcanon. It's logical. Hotel/Motel close enough.
As she said, this condemnable apartment is an interruption.
Hotel = The Hyperion, in away alongside her apartment at the Pearson Arms. She did keep clothes there which Angel threw out in his beige period so another fic trope, that she has a room there or shares Angel's is accepted headcanon.
Husband = Angel, as I said before, she was totally his common-law wife.

This is so reaching, again half of it is fanfic tropes but it fits.

I love that I can nitpick with you. There are people peppered here in there in various fan communities who do not like my nitpicking but nitpicking is how I show my investment.

straws

We did.

About his days on BTVS...I saw someone else pointing out that in early BTVS he actually had human blood in his fridge. Interesting if true. Wonder if that was a writer oversight or if Angel didn't start drinking pig until later?

I'll be there. Looking forward to it.

That's awesome. She has good taste. My brother had an ATS kick back in the day (he binged most of my DVDs in a week), but he quit the show around S4 and hasn't watched since. He liked Cordy and CA, but Darla was his favorite character. Once Darla was killed off and Cordy's character was assassinated, he lost interest quick.

Yeah, I agree. She had to be staying in a hotel since her parents had everything taken from them (and I'm assuming their house as well? had they kept the house, Cordy wouldn't have been broke).
I know what you mean. I look at all the details (and plot holes) because I love the show and am interested. If I didn't love it, I wouldn't care to look closely or ask questions.
I totally headcanon that she regularly stayed in Angel's room in S3 to help with baby Connor. They seemed so comfortable and relaxed at the end of Provider, that I can easily see her having fallen asleep with them or staying the night before.

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Really?
Of course, it's always possible that my memory is bad but I could swear that in the flashback where Whistler finds Angel in an alley eating a rat, he introduces the concept of butcher shop blood because he's like 'Dude, there's a more respectable deal available than crawling around in the streets eating rats'.

I actually started an AU of 'Are You Now--' in which Cordelia ends up in the 1952 Hyperion and inadvertently introduces Angel to pig's blood when the bottled human blood in his room and fumes.
Speaking of which I wish we'd learned more about where he'd gotten that bottled human blood. That was quite interesting.

Though it would also make sense that the incident with the Killer of the Dead and Buffy's blood could have completely turned him off human blood in any form.


Awesome. As am I!

I don't blame him.
It took me a year after season 4 to watch season 5 as a whole not just YW and I only gave in because of all the references I wasn't able to understand. Once was enough.

My stepsister and her fam were here again yesterday and she watched some more in our living room. She was in beige season 2 and I had to watch Angel giving Cordy's clothes to Anne's shelter.

It also kind of stung when Anne asked: "ex-girlfriend?" and Angel's response was "god no!".
Such a contrast from 'Belonging' when the douche director assumes Angel is Cordy's boyfriend and neither bothers to correct him. I loved that. That whole scene of course was protective!Angel salty goodness.

Considering the amount the Chases probably owed for tax evasion it's quite likely their house was foreclosed, and I'm guessing Cordy's car which had to have been under their name was repossessed.

On the subject of her car, it's crazy how we see her learning to drive on screen. She was in driver's ed when she was blinded in 'The Witch' and had previously flunked it twice. Compare that to her talking to herself in her jeep as she drove to meet Angel at the beach in 'Tomorrow'.
Oh and there the fact that she goes from a convertible to a jeep.

Was she 18 yet when the whole IRS thing happened? I was thinking of this fic I read that claimed that had she been 18, with her parents having fled country, the responsibility would have fallen on her. I don't know if the author had that correct but if so it wouldn't surprise if that didn't even occur to them or if they just didn't care.

Exactly!

Head canon accepted!
That 'Provider' end scene was so precious and looked so completely natural.

straws

From the 'Angel' transcript:

From Becoming Part 1:

Whistler: What are you eating? (they continue across) Like, a rat once
a month?
Angel strays and almost walks into another car. Whistler grabs him again
and pulls him back in time.
Whistler: Hey! (car honks, they continue) Look, you're skin and bones
here! Butcher shops are throwing away more blood in a day than you could
stand. Good blood. (they reach the far side) You lived in the world a
little bit, you'd know that.

That did happen.

But he was also drinking human in 'Angel'. Maybe something he 'treated' himself to once and awhile? Or had a weak moment?

Yes! That director is lucky he didn't get maimed like Lindsay.

I like to think his vehemence was a bit of the old 'he doth protests too much' and also because he was so determined to shun her and the AI team at that point. I think he was trying to make himself believe that Cordy meant nothing to him at that point. (I do love that Anne assumes Cordy is his ex, haha).

I always assumed that as well.
Wow, I never made that connection before. She really did have the most amazing growth pre-S4. We saw her grow up before our eyes.

Not sure if that's true or not either (I can see her parents not caring tho). She was just getting her license in S1 as you mentioned, so she was 16 minimum there. Which would make her 18 in season 3 or about to turn 18.

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Or as you suggested before, an inconsistency on the part of the writers.
I appreciate the evidence.


Right!?
I love how later Angel still apologizes for embarrassing her (He's totally putty in her hands )and she responds:
"I embarrassed myself."
I was relieved when she said that, she has way too much self-respect to take that *******'s verbal abuse.

Ah. Good point.


That's my thinking as well.

straws

While I do think it was 100% a writing inconsistency due to 'Angel' taking place in S1 and the writers still figuring his character/the show out, it's interesting to think of an in-canon reason for why he'd be drinking blood then.

Right? I felt terrible for her (and nearly as murderous as Angel lol). Normally Cordy would never let anyone talk to her like that. It felt as wrong as seeing her bullied by the Cordette's in BTVS. Oh course, she put them in their place at the end of Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered like the Queen she is.





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Oh, how the times change.
S1 Angel wants to stay at home alone, in the dark, while S3 Angel wanted the FG around and Cordy's staying the night.
S1 Cordy wants to go out on the town regularly; cut to S3 where she's happy staying in with Angel and Connor.

(Also, the way she is looking at him in the 2nd gif. The fondness. )

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Indeed, I love theorizing.

It's quite strange seeing how obviously desperate she was to be successful with that commercial vs. 'Judgement' when she easily ditched a play rehearsal while she was being praised no less for an AI job.

Wow, I did not remember that.
I love how Cordy (and Doyle) knew Angel was only suggesting an outing for their sake and let him off the hook.

As you pointed out, Season 1 Angel preferring to sit at home in the dark is an amazing contrast from season 3 Angel taking the gang out to Gizelle as is Cordy going from social pariah party goer to homebody especially after Connor was born.

straws

True, but I think that might be because a soul needed saving in the first instance, but the only soul in danger in the second one was hers.

This convo makes me wonder about another scene, though...

From the pilot:

I wonder if Cordy was contemplating that her visit with Russel was, maybe, possibly, a casting couch sort of scenario? Not that I judge her, either way. She was clearly starving and struggling to put food on the table.

Also, I'd love to know your thoughts on this scene:




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Interesting that Darla's mind voodoo manifested in him getting all up close and personal with Cordy. Was there already a denied attraction - a part of him that longed to be closer to her? He didn't smell Wesley's hair, I'll just say that.

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That's a good point, in the 'Judgment' scenario someone was in imminent danger, and with her having become more and more selfless over the course of the season I can see how she didn't immediately see herself as the victim in this particular situation.

Hell, now that I think of it, even in BtVS she'd never see herself as a victim, even when she directly was one such as in 'Out of Mind, Out of Sight' and even with the non-demonic stuff such as Xander the rebar and the whole IRS thing.
Of course, she was terrified and heartbroken, I'd have questioned her humanity if she hadn't been but other than her one or two lines in AtS about fearing karma she never went into a 'woe is me' mode at least not outwardly.

The Karma lines bring up another excellent point, she's only ever let herself be her most openly vulnerable in front of Angel and her AtS family.
She had her moments in BtVS (i.e her line about feeling alone to Buffy in OOMOOS) but those were just glimpses/previews.
'Tu Shanshu in LA', 'Expecting' and 'That Vision Thing' just to name the biggest examples were the full-length show.

Oh gosh. I'd never noticed that before.

I don't judge either. As we've stated she was living in a condemnable apartment and having to attend parties to feed herself on top of searching for acting jobs.

To be honest, even though she waited until the third date to have sex with Wilson which tells us a lot about her morals, under her aforementioned circumstances at that point, I could see her being reluctantly willing to accept prostitution jobs.
From what I've gathered on TV, most women are forced into it as opposed to choosing it because it pays fairly well.

I'm reminded of a fic that is set in an AU Birthday!verse in which that director that supposedly running into Angel made her miss at the penthouse party ended up leading her into prostitution instead of into her own sitcom.
Angel, who still ended up with the visions after Doyle's death but continued to answer them alone, no Wes or Gunn ends up saving her from being raped and killed (which interestingly considering the absence of demons or supernatural elements was a vision).

The ending is bittersweet but it's quite well done and does have some nice CA moments and good smut.

Once again however, I've read too many and the title and author have escaped me.

I'm just now noticing how in those second to last two GIFs before she gets up, he's actually petting her hair.

As I told you on Discord I believe he's feelings started for her in 'Tu Shanshu in LA' even though he didn't realize it, so I absolutely think there was an attraction there and he was essentially drunk which supposedly is when the truth comes out most. Suck that Darla (which one could say she did in 'Offspring' hehe)!

straws

Yeah, she handled her parents leaving and losing her fortune incredibly strongly. Even on BTVS, she hid it and only Xander found out when he caught her working at a clothing store. Sad to think of her shouldering that burden alone. She wasn't close enough to anyone in SD to share it with them.

I'd never judge anyone doing survival sex work, or anyone choosing that line of work, and I support them, but, like you said, a lot of times they are cohered, or it is forced on them, or there's a power imbalance, etc. It's also unfortunately a dangerous line of work for many reasons, but also bc there are no laws (at least none here that I know of) to protect sex workers.

I read a fic where Cordy was a prostitute, as well. The one I read was really well written, but she passes away in the end.

Oooh, never even thought of that moment as being prompted in part by TSILA. Agree about the attraction and wonder if living with her in the beginning of S2 also would've had an affect on him.