straws

They shared a lot of our points and problems with S4 as well so that was interesting to hear.

Yeah, but I do think she would've been all "Hey, hey! What? Eunuch! You're supposed to be a eunuch, gah! Undead friend perving on me....D:"

(That whole eunuch joke hasn't really aged well, but what can ya do? )



https://therearenopeoplelikeus.tumbl...t/188003731045

Ashes Fall

I've read so many fanfics in which Cordy has to eat the eunuch joke when they have sexual relations.

I've looked up the term and am not sure she understood that her application to Angel was technically inaccurate.
It refers to a voluntary state of physical castration:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/eunuch

So I don't blame Angel for taking offense to it.
It takes a stab at more than just his sexuality but his individuality as it somewhat suggests that he's a warrior/protector out of submission to his curse or to The Powers rather than out of his own conviction.

Oh, the scene on the right! Those final moments of CA beauty before it all came crashing down.

straws

Same. It's such a CA staple to me now, I can't help it.

I think she knew she was using it as a hyperbole, the writers just really loved the 'Angel is a no bone' joke, even though that was also inaccurate. As we talked about in here before, it's not the sex but who he's having it with. Plus, he lost his soul long after sex when he was sleeping with Buffy in his arms. And he didn't lose it with Darla. Awakening made it a weird sex = lost soul thing (I know it wasn't just that, he had a perfect day leading up to it, etc, but the execution of that was so...bleh. But then, this is S4 we're talking about.) I mean, I guess we should be happy we got a CA love scene at all after Greenie left?

OMG, I rambled so much and got off topic...anyway the joke kinda comes off in a weird 'if a man can't have sex/get an erection, they aren't a man' kind of thing which doesn't play so well in 2019.

He told Cordy she was the most beautiful women he'd ever seen in that episode and later also told her how much he respected/admired her as a person. He loves her insides and outsides.

Ashes Fall

Fair enough and it does technically work metaphorically.

Wes even points this out in 'Eternity', that the last time Angel had lost his soul wasn't just with Buffy but because it was Buffy. Which alone seemed to get under Poor Cordy's skin and then he had to add in the 'Some actress' comment to the aspiring actress!

That scene was almost an insult with the stupid "deja vu" 'Buffy' whisper.
Ignorance truly can be bliss, I initially thought that was just a gasp, finding out it was Buffy's name from YT comments is where the mutilation of that scene started for me and participating in this thread just continued to tarnish it. No resentment though, as it's all valid.

The sex=curse broken trope you just pointed out is a perfect example. That hadn't occurred to me before that it had done that but now I can see how that robs the scene of some of its meaning in favor of a sense of it just being a token sex scene.
Then there was the fact that CC appeared to be somewhat uncomfortable once he'd gotten her onto the bed which would have been understandable due to her pregnancy.

The one thing that can be appreciated about it was that it came from a real place, from Angel's deepest desires but even that is tainted by that damn whisper.

Amen and her death...hell even her coma was one of the most painful experiences for him in his long life.

DAMN IT GREENIE! Where did you vanish to?! Why did you abandon Cordy?!

straws

Same, but I comfort myself with the knowledge that if Angel had truly wanted Buffy, then he would've imagined Buffy. She would've shown up in LA conveniently like everything else that happened in his perfect day.

Plus there's some quote floating around by one of the writers saying that the Buffy reference was mostly a call back for viewers so they knew what was happening. I wish I could find it. I may be remembering it in a slightly more flattering light.

I love that Greenie was outspoken about CA

"I don't care what people think about it because I know we're doing the right thing," ~ David Greenwalt on C/Aness

"...she's really changing, and I think that Angel will be taking a hard second look at her, a kind of look that he's never taken before." ~ David Greenwalt on Angel finally taking notice of Cordy, BBC Cult

"We're playing how far she and Angel are just going to be so irresistibly drawn to one another." ~ David Greenwalt, Season 3 DVD Review

"The Cordelia and Angel relationship just appeared out of the scripts" ~ David Greenwalt

"Angel and Buffy have both moved on. Angel realizes this season that he had moved on from Buffy *before* she died. It's only natural. It was a first love, and that's where it will remain." ~ David Greenwalt, November 13 2001

Yeah, I can see how filming that would be uncomfortable. (There was a lot of stuff Joss had her do that season--like putting the fake blood on her belly--that really makes me side-eye him and feel for her. I cannot imagine filming S4 was an enjoyable experience at all.) They did look pretty when they were kissing, though.


They look like such babies in this pic, I wonder where it was taken. Looks like a con or press conference from BTVS S2 or something.

Ashes Fall

I concur but it still feels squicky to hear him whisper her name while having sex with Cordy.
Plus it just gives BAers fuel.

That's what I was referencing when I referred to it as the 'Deja vu' Buffy whisper.
Someone in the aforementioned YT comments had told me that the writers, possibly David Fury specifically had established that Angel was merely caught in a moment of Deja Vu.

I don't have the specific quote either I'm afraid, the YT video was of the scene itself and was deleted at least a year ago and the commenter who enlightened me didn't provide one.

Again, that's not much of a ocmfort as it still doesn't come across well.
It kind of feels like that cockamamie excuse Joss used to cut the portion of the 'Chosen' conversation in which Angel told Buffy that he loved Cordy and about Connor, that it was to keep their stories seperate to prevent confusion.

Holy ****! The last quote is the only one of those I've seen before! I knew that Greenie was Cordy's number one fan and that it was he who brought her to AtS but not that he shipped CA!

CC herself has also discussed how she was uncomfortable performing the sexual scenes with the Connor actor (and no doubt with his having to touch her belly in one or two scenes) not just because of her pregnancy but because of her unfamiliarity with him vs. DB.

"I felt more uncomfortable with Connor, because we haven't had seven years to bond, so I don't know him. And I'm pregnant, so I'm more abundant than usual--there's more to maneuver around. With David, I don't know, it's kind of ironic. It was very comfortable. I was at ease. I think we have great chemistry--we sync up really well. We're there." ~ Charisma Carpenter, Feb. 2003

To go with that:
"This was, you know, this was an intense day. You know, because there was a lot with the smoochies and with the undressing, and you know, David really went out of his way to make Charisma as comfortable as possible because this isn't something she'd actually done a lot of on my shows. And the two of them were, you know, they handled the whole thing very delicately. We had this beautiful little four walled set, and we kept people out of it and let them do their thing. And they were, well kinda electrifying. " ~ Joss Whedon, Season 3 DVD commentary on Waiting In The Wings

Hmm, it's hard to tell.
What are the papers on the table in front of them and in DB's hand? They don't look like anything that would be given to them to autograph though it does appear that DB has a pen in that same hand.

fractured moonlight

The Buffy whisper was and stupid. There was absolutely no need for it. We didn't need that to let us know what was happening.

Ashes Fall

I wholeheartedly agree.
Deja vu my ass, there's no way that wasn't meant as a nod to BAers.

fractured moonlight

Even if they want to call it deja vu in the context of the show to say that's why he did it it still makes absolutely no sense.

It was definitely put there so they would have something.

Ashes Fall

Some funny!



Poor Angel looks so defeated. Great, I'm losing to a ****ing ghost!

fractured moonlight

Angel hearing exactly what she said. He's definitely jealous of Dennis. That was such a great scene.

Cangel1987

I just imagine that this scream "Buffy" was just a shout out for help. At least that's what I've always imagined. Finally, he called Cordelia the the most beautiful girl he has ever seen.

Cangel91

I agree...I Always supposed he called her because she is the only one who is able to stop Angelus…

For Angel, Cordy is the most beautiful girl he has ever seen and his dearest friend

Ashes Fall

In fact, Buffy DID NOT stop Angelus, Willow did. BOTH times with Slayers only serving as a distraction while she cast the curse.
Buffy actually wussed out of at least a couple of opportunities to stake Angelus due to her feelings for Angel. I believe this is one of the main reasons Angel decided to break up with her, because of the danger he is to her.

fractured moonlight

I've been rereading AC fics. I miss these two so much.