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Old 11-23-2019, 01:26 PM
  #196
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From what you posted, I agree that his father's actions were physically and verbally abusive.


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Liam pretty much lived by his Id. It definitely sounds like an Angelus line.
Exactly, this is how I believe Angelus's psychopathy is a translation of Liam. His impulsiveness paired with the abuse.


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I'm not sure what we're talking about here anymore honestly.
Ha, me either. I don't even recall how we got into a Spike vs. Angelus debate and I'm not even into Spike so I don't really care.

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I'm tired of the Spike vs Angel argument by fandom at this point.
Like I said, I'm not into Spike nor any Buffy ships so I haven't paid much attention.

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I can't remember the exact line but Spike and Buffy are talking and Buffy says something like "You hurt people" and Spike says "I don't hurt you". And I genuinely think Spike believed that. He thought he could be good for Buffy and that'd he'd never hurt her. He didn't realize how his stalking, emotional abuse (trying to drag her down into the dark with him, etc) was bad. Seeing Red changed that. He finally realized he was wrong - that he was hurting Buffy and wasn't good for her. And a huge part of him getting the soul was him wanting to "give her what she deserved" (I hate how aggressive they wrote him in that scene; and him calling her a bitch? Ugh...but it just goes to show how un-souled Spike was forever toxic in his love). Soul-ed Spike was finally selfless and able to love her in a healthy way. And he immediately went from trying to pursue her to staying away from her, because he knew he wasn't good for her.

I don't think Angelus could even make that much progress and have the revelation Spike had - but I don't think Angelus would ever want to, either. So maybe he could and just wouldn't.
Bingo.
Sometimes I miss the simplest of routes (which could be a testament to a recent suggestion that I might be on the autism spectrum) but this is the best illustration there is of the individual nature of soullessness that for whatever reason that neither of us can remember (lol) I was attempting to argue.

Spike didn't require a soul to have the capacity to care whether an action was right or wrong and feel remorse whereas Angelus did as soulless he enjoyed hurting people which Buffy was no exception to not just despite his soul's love for her but because of it.

We see a specific example of the Angelus side of this in 'Eternity' when he, drug involvement aside, berates Cordy's performance in 'A Doll's House'.
It was ONLY with a soul or in this case, the soul's dominance that he cared that his opinion would be hurtful and as such had a sense of discretion (despite that ultimately, Cordy preferred Angelus's complete honesty).

For clarification, I'm NOT equating the specific situations, feelings towards someone's theatrical performance to essentially attempted rape but that both are instances of different soulless regards of someone.

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I read some articles on sociopaths vs psychopaths and I am by no means an expect or qualified to talk about it, but they made me think about the differences between Spike & Angel. Some articles argued sociopaths can still "love" in their own way if the person matters to them - and those people have value because they matter to them, but psychopaths cannot.
I read a bit about them as well but it was at least a year ago so I don't recall much. The way you've laid it out highlights at least one main difference very well.

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Haha. That does sound like a Cordy line! I wish the show had given us more Fred and Cordy friendship and less W/F/G triangle.
Same.
Fred spent five years in a demonic dimension and we don't see Cordy, who pre-Fred was the only woman on the team have a social life with other women since Harmony in 'Disharmony' which was uncomfortable and awkward for her with all the vamp/lesbian advances so AtS was in serious need of some girl bonding.
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Last edited by Ashes Fall; 11-23-2019 at 01:41 PM
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Old 11-23-2019, 07:10 PM
  #197
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Like I said, I'm not into Spike nor any Buffy ships so I haven't paid much attention.
I used to be really immature about it and get into petty, pointless shipper wars, SMH. I've also seen the argument played out for 20+ years now, so it feels a bit like running in circles. (Ugh, I can't believe I've been in the BTVS/ATS fandom on and off for that long.)

Quote:
Spike didn't require a soul to have the capacity to care whether an action was right or wrong and feel remorse whereas Angelus did as soulless he enjoyed hurting people which Buffy was no exception to not just despite his soul's love for her but because of it.
I think Spike did require a soul to care whether an action was right or wrong -- Seeing Red was the exception to the rule. Might that have been the first and only time he'd felt guilt without a soul? He felt guilt/loss/like he'd failed over not being able to save her life when she jumped from the tower, but I don't think that's the quite the same thing as the circumstances were very different. Anyway, I don't think the guilt Spike did feel in SR is equivalent to the guilt he'd feel with a soul (though the fact that he felt it at all is huge). I imagine he went from feeling horrible about it to feeling indescribably horrblex1000. Soulless Spike's goal was still to pursue and "win" Buffy, though, even after that. And had he not gotten the soul, I don't think he would've stayed away long. He would've continued to obsess over her, stalk her, and try coerce her into being with him. He couldn't not. He didn't have the capability to love her in a healthy way with the soul missing.

All in all, I've enjoyed this discussion. You brought up a lot of interesting points and got me thinking. We have our differences of opinion, but there's still overlap and areas where we agree. Good talk.

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We see a specific example of the Angelus side of this in 'Eternity' when he, drug involvement aside, berates Cordy's performance in 'A Doll's House'.
I loooove that moment between Cordy & Angelus in Eternity. I loved Cordy using her Queen C attitude and wits to pull a fast one on Angelus. 200+ years old and he couldn't call her bluff. She's a boss.

This is 100% fanon now and my own delusions, but I like to imagine Angelus already had a thing for her there. He could've snapped her neck ASAP or tortured her in really violent ways (and he probably would've if he'd had more time, but imma ignore that) but instead he just insulted her acting. What he said was harsh and he knew it would hurt her feelings, but come on, this was Angelus, he could've been so much more savage if he'd wanted to. He'd been trapped with the soul again and upon being freed all he did was insult Cordy's acting and do a imitation of her? (I find the imitation inappropriately funny. DB delivered it so well. )

I also like to head canon Angelus would want to turn, not just kill, her. This is probably from reading too much fic but #sorry not sorry, as the kids say.
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Old 11-24-2019, 01:35 AM
  #198
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I used to be really immature about it and get into petty, pointless shipper wars, SMH.
I'm sure we've all been there. I've done my share of the ship war thing.
Sometimes retaliation is a strong temptation with some of the comments one might come across.

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I've also seen the argument played out for 20+ years now, so it feels a bit like running in circles. (Ugh, I can't believe I've been in the BTVS/ATS fandom on and off for that long.)
Damn.
You make my 6 years kind of embarrassing.

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I think Spike did require a soul to care whether an action was right or wrong -- Seeing Red was the exception to the rule. Might that have been the first and only time he'd felt guilt without a soul? He felt guilt/loss/like he'd failed over not being able to save her life when she jumped from the tower, but I don't think that's the quite the same thing as the circumstances were very different. Anyway, I don't think the guilt Spike did feel in SR is equivalent to the guilt he'd feel with a soul (though the fact that he felt it at all is huge). I imagine he went from feeling horrible about it to feeling indescribably horrblex1000. Soulless Spike's goal was still to pursue and "win" Buffy, though, even after that. And had he not gotten the soul, I don't think he would've stayed away long. He would've continued to obsess over her, stalk her, and try coerce her into being with him. He couldn't not. He didn't have the capability to love her in a healthy way with the soul missing.
IA that Buffy was the exception for Soulless Spike in regards to caring/loving(whatever the way)/feeling remorse and that's the core of the differences between him and Angelus. Buffy was NOT this such exception for Angelus but a target of revenge much like his father.

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All in all, I've enjoyed this discussion. You brought up a lot of interesting points and got me thinking. We have our differences of opinion, but there's still overlap and areas where we agree. Good talk.
Indeed, good talk.

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I loooove that moment between Cordy & Angelus in Eternity. I loved Cordy using her Queen C attitude and wits to pull a fast one on Angelus. 200+ years old and he couldn't call her bluff. She's a boss.
IKR!

That moment made a great statement that a Slayer's supernatural enhancements don't make her the only woman in the world with the capability and strength to take on the monsters.
An average adolescent woman, NOT a Slayer, armed with nothing but knowledge managed to deceive 'The Scourge of Europe', one of the vilest and deadliest vampires on earth with a bottle of spring water!

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This is 100% fanon now and my own delusions, but I like to imagine Angelus already had a thing for her there.
I'd go with 99.999999% fanon particularly if the KBD tackle can be considered indicative.
Think about it, he was aiming his focus at the time on those close to Buffy but at that moment chose to target Cordelia who hardly qualified under that category. This suggests that he had some form of unique interest in her.

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He could've snapped her neck ASAP or tortured her in really violent ways (and he probably would've if he'd had more time, but imma ignore that) but instead he just insulted her acting. What he said was harsh and he knew it would hurt her feelings, but come on, this was Angelus, he could've been so much more savage if he'd wanted to. He'd been trapped with the soul again and upon being freed all he did was insult Cordy's acting and do a imitation of her? (I find the imitation inappropriately funny. DB delivered it so well. )
Remember te Liam tie-in, verbal abuse is part of Angelus's MO.
He used pretty much the same format with Buffy, a verbal warm-up before he went into the real action; the drawings, the flowers, the dead fish, Jenny Calendar and the display with her body, etc.

He just didn't have enough time, in this case, to get far. The question is, was he aware of that? I honestly, don't remember. I'm no expert but based on some basic research I did some time ago, I believe the drug essentially acted as a PCP so it's plausible that he might not have been.

I read a fanfic that AU-ed that scene so that Wesley doesn't regain consciousness until the next morning and when he does he finds himself in the company of two vampires after Angelus spends the night raping Cordy.

It's very good, I liked it, however, it's significantly flawed in that it doesn't properly understand the drug effect because Angelus is treated as pure/soulless in that Angel doesn't return.

I'm so sorry, I hate telling you about fics that I can't provide. I could swear the site it was posted to was on the first page of the Google results for CA fanfiction but now it's nowhere to be found.

The only one I found was Angel's Bliss by Gemjj but it's not nearly as good.

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I also like to head canon Angelus would want to turn, not just kill, her. This is probably from reading too much fic but #sorry not sorry, as the kids say.
IA 100%.
I find it quite plausible that Angelus would be attracted to Cordy's sharp tongue and 'take what she wants' attitude and her becoming a seer would have just been an enhancement (since we know he's into seers).
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Last edited by Ashes Fall; 11-24-2019 at 01:43 AM
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Old 11-24-2019, 08:04 AM
  #199
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I'd go with 99.999999% fanon particularly if the KBD tackle can be considered indicative.
Think about it, he was aiming his focus at the time on those close to Buffy but at that moment chose to target Cordelia who hardly qualified under that category. This suggests that he had some form of unique interest in her.
True. There's a small bit of evidence for that theory, so it's only 99.999999 fanon. Plus Cordy was at that time the most important person in Angel's life (they'd bonded over losing Doyle and Angel hadn't known Wes as long) and those are the people Angelus always targets.

Quote:
Remember te Liam tie-in, verbal abuse is part of Angelus's MO.
He used pretty much the same format with Buffy, a verbal warm-up before he went into the real action; the drawings, the flowers, the dead fish, Jenny Calendar and the display with her body, etc.

He just didn't have enough time, in this case, to get far. The question is, was he aware of that? I honestly, don't remember.
Angel: “You put something in my drink.”
Rebecca: “I just wanted you to relax a little, Angel. Oh, lower the defenses a little.”
Angel grabs her: “What was it?!”
Rebecca: “Just a little happy pill. (Angel drops his face on her shoulder, panting) Oh god. I’m so sorry.”

I always assumed he knew he had a limited amount of time - which is why I thought it strange that's how he chose to spend it. You would've thought he'd go looking for more pills or cause as much chaos as possible. There's also the chance that he wasn't 100% Angelus...just more of an Angelus Lite (the soul was still in there). But I guess it's possible he didn't know. Or was so arrogant he assumed they'd never stop him and he had plenty of time still.

Since we were just talking about this moment:



https://starryeyesxx.tumblr.com/post/188089603193

Quote:
The only one I found was Angel's Bliss by Gemjj but it's not nearly as good.
I'll check it out.

My fave vamp Cordy fic is Promise of the Night by Lysa.

Quote:
IA 100%.
I find it quite plausible that Angelus would be attracted to Cordy's sharp tongue and 'take what she wants' attitude and her becoming a seer would have just been an enhancement (since we know he's into seers).
Yep. But would he want to drive her insane first, or would he turn her as is and want to 'keep' that part of her?
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Old 11-24-2019, 01:14 PM
  #200
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True. There's a small bit of evidence for that theory, so it's only 99.999999 fanon. Plus Cordy was at that time the most important person in Angel's life (they'd bonded over losing Doyle and Angel hadn't known Wes as long) and those are the people Angelus always targets.
Yup there's that as well.

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Angel: “You put something in my drink.”
Rebecca: “I just wanted you to relax a little, Angel. Oh, lower the defenses a little.”
Angel grabs her: “What was it?!”
Rebecca: “Just a little happy pill. (Angel drops his face on her shoulder, panting) Oh god. I’m so sorry.”

I always assumed he knew he had a limited amount of time - which is why I thought it strange that's how he chose to spend it. You would've thought he'd go looking for more pills or cause as much chaos as possible. There's also the chance that he wasn't 100% Angelus...just more of an Angelus Lite (the soul was still in there). But I guess it's possible he didn't know. Or was so arrogant he assumed they'd never stop him and he had plenty of time still.
That's a valid point, it's plausible that the soul still had a bit of influence but I feel it mostly came down to his impulsiveness. Although he was aware of the drug, the temporary nature of it didn't occur much to him.

We have some supporting dialogue for this:
Angel [To Rebecca]: “Tell you what, I’ll torture you for a few unbelievably long hours and then you can tell me if this is the lifestyle for you.
That doesn't sound as though he considered how much time he had.

Then Wesley attempts to directly point out to him the nature of his condition but it might as well have fallen on deaf ears:
Wesley: “Angel, I want you to listen to me. What you’re experiencing is not genuine. You’ve been fed a drug. It’s simulating bliss. All that you’re feeling is just a chemical suggestion. (Angel slowly strolls into the dark office) Angel?”

Angel still in vamp-face: “Name’s Angelus.”


Perhaps, there is a slight chance, however, that he did consider that if, in fact, he was on borrowed time the most efficient way to use it would be to leave the soul the ruins of his team as a welcome back gift. Though as plans aren't his forte, that idea was still lacking in that department.
Still, it kind of succeeded. Cordelia was pissed off at Angel for not being honest with her about her acting enough to leave him in chains.

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Since we were just talking about this moment:



https://starryeyesxx.tumblr.com/post/188089603193
Look at that badass, fearless face. If that was her acting than I don't understand what she was doing on that stage?
A woman who can face down 'The Scourge of Europe' with spring water couldn't possibly have stage fright?

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I'll check it out.

My fave vamp Cordy fic is Promise of the Night by Lysa.
Meh, don't feel obligated, it's really not that good.

Ah now Promise of the Night was a masterpiece.
Her vamp!Cordy was sublime as was how it's so unsettling but has you rooting for her the entire time.

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Yep. But would he want to drive her insane first, or would he turn her as is and want to 'keep' that part of her?
I feel as though he'd want to keep it especially if he planned on her being his mate (which he did not with Dru). It turns out we get a bit of suggestive dialogue:

Rebecca: “Whatever you are going to do – do it. I’m not running anymore.”
Hits him across the face with the candlestick as hard as she can.
Angel: “Now that I respect.”


As much as he enjoys the screaming, the begging, the squirming, he seems to appreciate strong women who face him down.

On another topic, something has come to mind.
In that GIF set of the Cordy/Angelus springwater trick, I noticed drug-induced Angelus seems to be wearing a dark green shirt.
I can recall him wearing maroon at one point, I'm pretty sure sometime in 'To Shanshu' and blue at another (with the duster of course but still).

Do we see him wearing that much color in BtvS?
I know it's a common fanfic trope for Cordy to at least comment on his black and gray wardrobe being dreary so I'm wondering, did she convince him to buy more colors?
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Old 11-25-2019, 07:12 PM
  #201
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I'm such a huge fan of Lysa's fics.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:52 PM
  #202
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As am I. As far as I'm concerned she's a CA fic legend.
In fact, just read me one of her works.

A little Cordy pwning Angelus anyone?

A Night to Remember
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Old 11-28-2019, 05:18 AM
  #203
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I know it is not the subject here but here in France on Netflix we have Grimm (another serie produced by David Greenwalt) and i must admit that I can't help mysef to see and make a parallele between Nick/Adalind and Angel/Cordy.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:38 AM
  #204
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I used to watch Grimm but it lost me before Nick/Adalind. It got too gimmicky.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:40 AM
  #205
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Just popping in to say that I have final assignments due and final exams coming up, so I won't be able to post much here for the next 2 weeks, but I miss this thread and talking about C/A.
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Old 11-30-2019, 06:32 PM
  #206
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I've already been missing you.
Best of luck with finals.

I've got to focus on my Christmas shopping so I might be a bit scarce myself for a bit.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:52 PM
  #207
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In the meantime, some more pretty





otp meme: Angel/Cordelia - faceless

https://sodemonizemealready.tumblr.c...delia-faceless
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:53 PM
  #208
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I've already been missing you.
Best of luck with finals.
Thanks *crosses fingers*

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I've got to focus on my Christmas shopping so I might be a bit scarce myself for a bit.
I tried to do most of my shopping on Black Friday but I still have some people I need to buy for. My poor wallet is always very damaged this time of year.

Thanks for that awesome giftset, starryeyesxx. Something about faceless gifsets are so cool and offer a different kind of intimate look.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:37 AM
  #209
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In the meantime, some more pretty





otp meme: Angel/Cordelia - faceless

https://sodemonizemealready.tumblr.c...delia-faceless
That 'Dead End' scene where the vision of the eye transplant guy stabbing his own eye upset Cordy so much she let herself break against Angel.
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Old 12-09-2019, 04:06 PM
  #210
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That 'Dead End' scene where the vision of the eye transplant guy stabbing his own eye upset Cordy so much she let herself break against Angel.
I love that scene. The OTP and couple energy is so strong there.
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