straws

How's everyone been doing, btw? Hope everyone is staying as safe as they can. My mental health/anxiety issues have gone even more into overdrive lately but I'm trying to stay distracted.

Would anyone be interested in doing ATS episode re-watches to post/chat about it in here or something?

Also, is anyone else playing Animal Crossing?

Ashes Fall

This scene, that line, her speech was so profound!
It's so prominent in the rest of the season that he's a discarded shell of himself without his Cordy.


Ironic, "A love letter to Cordelia" is exactly what Charisma called YW when she first read the script.

I'm starting to feel like we're gonna be quarantined for the rest of the year and the holidays will be ruined. This is the second extension now!

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time.

I'd be willing to give something a go as long as it's still on Hulu, I'd have to check. I could use a rewatch but I'd refuse to watch IWRY or anything after WITW except YW.

How would this work?

Sorry no.

straws

Our ship didn't get much in S5 but at least we canonically got it stated that Angel without Cordy = Not Angel. For me that goes doubly, for the character and the show itself.

In a podcast I was listening to the other day, one of the women on there mentioned how she doesn't understand how people can hold up S5 as their favorite. She said something about how can a show called Angel be any good when you can't even recognize/understand Angel anymore? I fully agree. The podcast also spoke about how Cordy left a hole in the show that no Spike could fill. And how seeing Cordy try to grapple with a life Post-Jasmine would've been much more interesting than the Spike and Angel go on Wacky Adventures show. They talk a bit about Joss's mistreatment of Cordy/Charisma as well.

I think this is the episode if anyone wants to listen:
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/sla...?autoplay=true

I'm not sure about Hulu b/c we don't get it in Canada. I think I heard BTVS is on Hulu but I'm not sure about ATS.

I'm fine with that. Re-watching S4 or some of the awful episodes like She (which still beats S4 for me, because at least the real Cordy is in it) would only depress me more in quarantine, not be a welcome distraction.

We could always pick a couple of our favorite episodes or CA heavy episodes and watch them?

I'm open to suggestions. I haven't had a watch party on in a while. In the past we chose a date/time and then logged into at that time. We all had our own means of watching the episodes but we watched them in tandem so that as we posted about them in here we were all seeing the same thing and could chat about it as we watched.

IDK if there's an easier/better way to do it than that.

Thanks.

And, yeah, it doesn't feel like we're out of the woods with this yet. I don't see life going back to 'normal' for a while.

Ashes Fall

Beautifully put.
The "Angel and Spike go on Wacky Adventures Show" was literally 110% pointless and a step backward for Angel's characters.

I've watched it on Hulu before and I checked, it's still there.

Wait what? 'She' had one of the most hilarious C/A exchanges:

Angel puts the bag down with a slight grimace: “Really, ah, fun party last night.
Cordy: “I’m so glad you came. You know how parties are. You’re always worried that no one is going to suck the energy out of the room like a giant black hole of boring despair. But there you where - in the clinch!”
Angel: “I didn’t... – Boring?”
Cordy: “You used to be a person! Did you never party? Did people not gather in olden times?”
Angel: “I talked to people. - Laura.”
Cordy: “Laura thought you hated her. I had to tell her you were challenged.”



Angel with Laura really was super "parallel universe'-y compared to the decription of Liam a tavern wench gave Darla in 'The Prodigal':

"His lies sound pretty when the stars are out. - But he forgets every promise he’s made when the sun comes up again."

That's an even better idea! A C/A watch party!

I've never had a watch party on but I did once try one on another website for the show Stranger Things (Though I didn't get much into that show so I ditched it at around 5 episodes).
What we did there was agreed on an episode and date to discuss it (though in that case, we watched it chronologically, I like the C/A heavy episodes format better for us) and we'd all watch it with our own access separately by the agreed-upon date.

I've also been doing live watch parties of various content with my friends during the quarantine since we can't actually get together but the chat and watch at the same set up works best with IMing. So I'm not sure we can do that. Though it would be more efficient if it's just gonna be the two of us which is what it's seeming to be so far.

straws

'She' has it's moments--I adore the Wesley and Angel dancing montage, for one, and Angel attending Cordy's party to support her even though he clearly hated every minute of it lol--but watching the episode as a whole...it's a rough one lol.

I do feel like pitting Angel and Spike against each other/having them forced to work together had its moments--and using Spike to deconstruct/foil Angel had some interesting merit to it--but there were too many moments where the writers just turned it into an immature, 12-year-old pissing match and that was not at all what I cared to see. It did come off as very regressive. And repetitive.

I wonder how different S5 would've been if Cordy and Spike had both been allowed on the season instead of Spike replacing her. I think those two would've played off each other really well. Cordy being around obviously would've done wonders for Angel's characterization.



Yeah, my friends and I have done that a bit with Discord.

I thought it might help to get the thread moving to post our viewing party in here, but you're right that it's not the most practical. If you'd rather we use Discord, I'd be cool with that.

Any episodes you have in mind?

starryeyesxx

That sucks, I think that it's hard not to go through ups & downs atm, but this board & thread is always here to give you a little pick me up

& some pretty




https://sodemonizemealready.tumblr.com/post/75120792196

Ashes Fall

This. Exactly!

It was a horrible sort of combination of Angel being forced to put up his **** up of a brother who lost his job and was thrown out by his wife (though I am well aware that Spike got to AI for actually getting something right not ****ing up or to antagonize them, it's just a metaphor for how useless his role was) and two teenagers fighting over a prom date. Which brings me to my next point.

Spike was the main factor that made it feel as though Cordy was never there because he bought back Angel's pining for Buffy very season one style.

The one line of acknowledgment, "I lost Cordy because something violated her. Crawled inside and used her up." although it was pretty strong, doesn't do her memory justice.

I thought there was some C/A/S chemistry in the zombie fight scene in YW that teased some intriguing potential for that relationship.

It's hard to say which is more plausible between Cordy being the mother figure who has to pull them apart by their ears whenever they fight and Angel remaining grounded enough in her presence to not let Spike's bull**** get to him. I'm leaning more towards the latter.


It can work here as long as we all agree upon the episode and the date and time of the discussion.

I've only started using Discord in the past year to do staff work with a video game fansite. I'm not a big fan of using it otherwise, my friends and I use Facebook messenger, but it is a doable option.

- Birthday
- That Vision Thing
- WITW
- YW
- Parting Gifts
(It's a shame we didn't get an entire episode of just C/A before Wesley's entrance but this at least shows them grieving together to some degree and of course has the cute desperate vision kiss hehe)
- Expecting
- To Shanshu in LA

Just a handful of suggestions.



The way she pretends she was watching the whole time like her laying on his shoulder snoring was unnoticeable and it's so sweet that he didn't mind her drooling.

straws

Thank you.
That's b/c bb-Connor spit up on the back, right? It's been a while since I watched.
Honestly, as a Spike fan, I have a lot of issues with how he is written in ATS S5. His character was given a major step down compared to his significance on BTVS. In many ways, he went from being the male lead to an annoying fly buzzing around Angel's head. Part of me even hates that he was brought back at all because I feel like it invalidates his sacrifice. I don't want Spike dead, but if he had to go out, there really was no better way.

I'm a Discord noob too, but I think I've figured my way around the IMing feature, at least.

Whichever option you prefer is cool with me.

I'm Eastern Time, btw. Does morning, noon, or night work better for you?


Great list.

I'm most excited to watch WITW again b/c I think it's been criminally long since I've seen it. Also, that's an episode that I try to watch sparingly. It's so perfect that I try to not ruin it by 'over watching' like I've done with some BTVS eps, if that makes sense.

Oh, I'd also like to nominate Disharmony, Heartthrob, and RW/AV. All super heavy C/A eps, imo.

straws

Just noticed that we're going to need a title soon.

May I suggest one of the CC quotes from a new podcast interview she did?

The whole interview is worth a listen, but since this is the C/A thread, she is asked specifically about C/A at the 50 minute mark.

Some highlights:

"I thought it was natural and perfect."
She still sees David at cons a lot and they are still friends: "I DM with David very frequently."
"I believed in that relationship 110%."
She talks about watching some of the C/A edits fans have made on social media that show the progression of their relationship. She says there are some really good ones.

Ashes Fall

Was it? Lol. I've only ever rewatched the softcore porn parts hehe. Oh and I refuse to watch the end when Groo shows up and ruins Angel's attempt at a confession of his feelings to Cordy. Ugh.

Ironically, didn't Spike himself even feel cheated out of his hero's death?
Although his death sort of invalidated the whole potential army build-up I agree that it was a good end to his character.

Discord is a bit complicated though because don't we need to create an entire server? That's what the site I'm working with has.

I'm in PST (Pacific time) which is 3 hours behind you which is potentially problematic as night is best for me but I don't want to keep you up late.


As I said, I've only rewatched the porn-y parts hehe. So it'll be quite a fresh experience for me to watch it from beginning to--I suppose end if I must. For you.

Granted I've never rewatched it, isn't Heartthorb BA heavy? Cuz it's Buffy's death ep.
It also kind of hurts to hear him tell Cordy that no one ever mattered to him as Buffy did rather than wording it that she was the first person who ever mattered.

I'm on board with Disharmony and RWAV though, I can't believe I forgot the latter! RWAV is quite important, I'm pretty sure Angel's pep talk to her was the first vote of confidence Cordy had ever gotten! And of course the peanut butter! I'm surprised no one had fic-ed Angel getting her to admit to that in the future like in the season 3 timeline.

Cordy shutting Angel down as a friend was so heartwrenching but so well characterized and of course, but the Harmony lesbo humor and the clothes at the end are well worth Disharmony.

Aww. I've wondered about their relationship as they NEVER interact on their public timelines though I a couple of times saw David and SMG exchange public birthday wishes.

"I believed in that relationship 110%."

This is the one!

"Because Charisma believes in their relationship 110%"

Now I wish like hell that I had ANY video making skills. I have the ideas!

straws

I think so? I think the episode has Lorne cleaning the back of the suit after Connor spit up and Angel worrying he won't look good at the ballet for Cordy. I guess we'll be able to confirm when we re-watch haha.


Yeah, it was touched on in ATS. I guess they felt they had to call out the elephant in the room.
Not if we don't want to. If it's just the two of us, I think we only need to friend each other and then we can IM w/out needing any kind of server.

It does have B/A in it, but idk, I always view it as more of a CA ep. It feels more like giving B/A closure than anything else. Which I think, at the time, was what the episode was intended for. But then the writers decided to try and milk a faux-S/A/B triangle for ratings, so....
"In all those years - no one ever mattered. Not like she did."
'Those years' (years already gone by) always makes me read it in past tense. So I think he was talking about his life pre the AI fam. Angel was also still oblivious of his growing feelings for Cordy then, so, idk, it tracks.

But I'm cool with skipping that ep if you're not comfortable 'cause there are plenty others.



Does anyone in particular want to start the next thread, or does it not matter as long as it gets started?

I haven't exactly been going to bed early these days, so I don't mind if our ep viewing runs till around midnight or so.

So if we watched an episode starting 10 or 11 pm my time, that'd be 7 or 8 for you, right? Does that work at all?

Ashes Fall

The Angel/Lorne convo is great, especially the part where Lorne busts Angel by revealing that he'd "seen" his feelings for Cordy while he was singing a lullaby to Connor.
No one can argue with Lorne!

Hmm, that does sound plausible. My Discord username is Devilish if you'd like to add me.

It was most definitely intended as B/A closure. Both Davids stressed this. Greenwalt even explicitly stated that Angel had moved on from Buffy before this point, this ep was her death forcing him to confront it.

I feel bad for the Davids for how many B/A fits I imagine both had to fend off at the time.
There's even a Boreanaz interview in which the interviewer who is a B/A fan is a bit unaccepting.

One thing I will admit is, how Heartthrob, without intention even for obvious reasons, profoundly foreshadowed Angel's breaking point after Cordy falls into a coma and then dies:

James: "You loved someone? With all your heart?"
Angel: "Yeah"
James: "No you didn't. Because if you had, you wouldn't be
standing here playing games with me. You wouldn't be able to. Because when she died...when some bastard killed her, it would have killed everything in you."
Angel: "I wouldn't be able to go on living."

In season 5, Angel is totally a shell and NFA screamed suicide mission!


Ah, I forgot about that wording.

In retrospect, I'll watch it.

Have at it.

Mmmm, possibly.
I retire to my room for the night somewhere between 9:30 and 10pm so it's at that time that I am most free of distractions.
7-8 can be dinner time at my house but can also be a fairly quiet time.

More important information to know is that the watch parties I do with my friends have had a pattern of occurring either on Thursdays or Fridays with a Wednesday or two peppered in so Monday. Tuesday or the weekend would be the safest bet.

straws

Sent you a PM on FF.

Good catch. Poor Angel.

Ah, yeah, sometimes we're still eating around 7-8, too.
I can go as late as 12 then? Esp if it's a weekend, since I'm usually up later Saturday, anyway. Monday is also okay since I don't exactly have much on my calendar at the moment.

straws