Cangel1987

Yes, I know - Bangel`s do not want to see the truth. And talk try to talk everything well and swap the facts.

I just can not stand this werewolf woman. I mean seriously as if Angel ever forgets his Cordelia - special - that fast. Nina is a scapegoat for me. I can`t just stand her.

I have to agree with you. As much as I like Fred - but more tears would be spilled over her than over our Cordelia. As if all just had to forget what ever happened to Cordelia. :-(

Crystal Clear

^ The Angel/Nina thing is something I find hilarious in the sense that it came out of nowhere.

Literally, she spends one episode dealing with being a werewolf, then suddenly in the puppet episode it's like the writers had a lobotomy and decided to fool us all into thinking there had always been sexual tension there.

James Marsters saved Season 5 from being a disaster, just like he saved BTVS Season 7 from being a disaster.

That said -- as much as Spike was an iconic character in the BuffyVerse, I don't think James ever felt comfortable with the knowledge that Joss basically tried to replace Charisma with him

Agreed and to this day, people online still talk about this destructive story-arc and send Charisma support over how badly she was treated --

Particularly in reference to how she was fooled into thinking she was signing a permanent contract to return in Season 5, only to be told AFTER she signed it that she would only be a one-episode guest star

Cangel1987

What I find rather ridiculous is that Cordelia and Angel "allegedly" forced - it took "only" 6 years until they fell in love with each other. But Bangel thinks it was too fast and it feelt forced accordingly them. But excuse me please, how long have Bangel needed to come together, a few weeks ?? What is forced now o.O

Today I also have seen Chosen and I was really annoyed how differently Angel behave himself around Buffy.

Angel behaved like a Teenager - and became jealousy. I think it was not a must be - special if we also consider what happened in Los Angeles with Cordelia - and than there was Connor.

I feelt as if Angel was totally out of character. I wondered who the guy was - in Sunnydale, he behaved differently. Than the guy we also know from Los Angeles.

I am fully behind Charisma. She does deserve so much better :-(

Ashes Fall

Angel/Nina pissed me off most in 'Smile Time', Wesley's speech about finding that one person that makes your life worth living and that perfect happiness has only a 0.000001% probability or something was utter bull**** that made me wanna slap him.
Granted the former was his brain detouring to his own feelings for Fred but the latter...gee why didn't anyone come up with THAT argument in season 3 amongst the Kyrumption talks! Oh, that's right, because the writers pulled it out of their asses as a facilitating device!

I respectfully disagree, it was still a disaster.

It actually wasn't all Joss, as I heard, the network forced them to keep Spike for the entire season.
I believe initially he was going to go through with leaving to return to Buffy after finding out that his little Champion bit was a scam. Perhaps under the circumstaces, it might have been intended for sooner.

It's true, I've even borne witness on twitter.

Oh crap! I've never heard it that way, I thought it was JUST YW.

The most amazing thing is that she and Joss have since made up and she holds absolutely no grudge.


..... *does not compute*

C/A was the most naturally developed couple in both series.

Angel was sent to Buffy, he stalked her, he leeched from her identity, her calling, there was no emotional connection, no friendship, they never talked because their lips were always glued together, how is THAT NOT forced?

C/A wasn't brought together by the powers, they didn't ask to meet each other, they were best friends, they made each other stronger.

When I first watched 'Chosen' I didn't know who the hell Angel was either, he sounded so stone-like, so cold, almost like Angelus. I wondered if it was The First.

I've come up with explanations for his behavior though that somewhat comforts me.

He kissed Buffy as a repeat of Darla, his need to feel something because he was clearly numb from his recent loss of both the loves of his life, Cordy and Connor and his bitchfest over Spike was jealousy of Spike's soul, not S/B.
He hated the thought that Spike was showing him up, that he could love freely.

Tidbit: In an early draft of the script Angel was going to tell Buffy that he was in love with Cordelia and about Connor but it was cut for the BS excuse that it would have confused the two storylines.

It could also be factored in that David was only available to shoot that scene for 7 hours which I can imagine isn't long in Hollywood.

Crystal Clear

The dialogue in that episode was cringe-worthy. Wes' speech encouraging him to have loveless sex was just... Bizarre. Much like the rest of the weird season.


She was totally blindsided and had no idea that they didn't plan to bring her back full-time. It's deeply sad.

Add to that the fact that they also lied about YW, pretending they wouldn't kill Cordy... It's an utter disgrace that writers of a once-amazing show would treat her that way.

fractured moonlight

I still haven't watched all of S5. The only episode I have watched from it is of course YW. Sometimes I think I should watch it but I just can't. Without Cordelia I feel there is no reason and as been mentioned here there are some things I know about that piss me off so I don't want to see it.


And I love that. I love that she still has so much support.

Oh wow! That is so ****ed up. I don't think I knew that. Or if I did I forgot about it. I was already pissed off enough that she thought they weren't going to kill off Cordelia only for them to do so. And now to find out there's more. Just wow.

Ashes Fall

That context never occurred to me but ****, that is essentially what it was and yeah for Wesley that's bizarre considering it was pre-Illirya because that messed him up pretty bad so I could have seen it after.

And this part of the speech:

"Angel... if there's a woman out there... who you find truly attractive, who you think about, let's say, most of the time, who represents even part of what you think makes the world worth fighting for and who doesn't view you as an entirely sexless shoulder to lean on...you have to do something about it."

The first response to came to my mind, that I was hoping Angel would give was:

"I thought we were talking about Nina, not Cordelia, a little late for that advice Wes!"


I knew that much but I didn't realize she'd been tricked into believing she was signing on for the entire season, I thought she found out that she wasn't in season 5 through the press and was exclusively tricked into YW.
This **** just keeps getting worse every time someone tells it.


She broke down crying when she found out Cordelia was being killed off and was reluctant to even accept the role, what got her was the script. She couldn't help being moved by it. "A love letter to Cordelia" is how she described it.

Crystal Clear

The Nina thing was a huge indication of how much of a mess the show was even before YW aired. Without Cordelia, the group were basically acting as if they had no memory of her. The reluctance of the S5 writers to acknowledge how much of a big deal Cordelia actually was to the show and how much she meant to Angel is really disgusting.

I remember Charisma saying at a convention (or maybe it was an interview) years ago that she would have been happy to come back full-time after S4 -- but she found out through the grape-vine aka a JOURNALIST apparently that Joss was bringing in James Marsters full-time as what was clearly a replacement lead actor next to David.

It hurts, as a Spike and Cordy fan, to think that the writers basically pitched the two fanbases for these characters against each other by doing this.

straws

I tried re-watching S5 recently and, like, there was some good stuff in there but I just couldn't get attached or invested because of the lack of Cordelia. She was and forever will be the heart of ATS for me.

She helped build Angel Investigations from the ground up and was such a huge part of the show and Angel's identity. I just feel so lost watching S5.

fractured moonlight

I've heard there is some good in it too but I just don't think it's worth it to me. I so agree. She is the heart through and through and without her it just doesn't work.

Exactly. She was such an important part of all it and when you take her away it feels empty.

straws

I wish there was more S5 fic that rewrote the season to include Cordy. So many are WIPS that were abandoned. I think by then the CAers were just too raw/sad to write a lot of fic.

fractured moonlight

I remember reading a really good one back in the day but can't remember what it was called. But yeah I think even back then it became abandon. I wouldn't blame them if that was the reason.

Ashes Fall

Appalling and as if that wasn't bad enough season 5 had to also have Bangel fuel thanx to Spike that made Angel appear to still be pining for Buffy and jealous of B/S.
*Angel's fever dream in 'Soul Purpose' where he's watching B/S having sex.
and
*The utter disrespectful ****pile that was TGIQ

Thank the Powers that SMG couldn't do YW. The LAST thing season 5 needed was Buffy being made to appear as the love who got Angel back on track (I maintain that Cordy truly achieved it in ATF).

The **** just piles on.
I've been told that Joss had to nerve to make a statement that he felt James' chemistry with David was better than Charisma's and that hearing this was hurtful to Charisma.

I'm probably more biased than valid on this subject because I'm not really a Spike fan but I wholeheartedly disagree.

Oh, there is some good stuff in season 5, it's called 'You're Welcome'.

Sorry, can't help there. I don't read season 5 fics.
Most of them that I've come across just from reading the summaries bring her back from the dead or are just Angel either sitting at her bedside or mourning her death. Nothing that really undoes any of the ****.

One I recall best is where she has to return to earth to stop Connor who was being used by yet another vengeful ******* to kill Angel and in that particular case that it's more Connor crap added to the turn-off.

Tbh all the best rewrites don't even need to get to season 5 because they erase either Jasmine or Connor's kidnapping.

fractured moonlight

So true. It's the only thing worth watching in S5.

Though I do have to be honest and even though I do love it I find it bittersweet. I'm glad we got the real Cordelia again but it also bothers me they killed her off.

Crystal Clear

EWW yes that Soul Purpose scene Talk about awkward.

Worst of all - DAVID DIRECTED IT Poor him.

TGIQ was such a silly episode.

The Angel/Spike stuff... Clearly done for laughs.

Having them follow Buffy around like that? Especially Angel -- it didn't make any sense. When he left Sunnydale to star on his own show, he knew he was giving up any right to make decisions for her or know about her private life. Even Spike wouldn't have behaved like that anymore; he sacrificed himself out of love for Buffy. It made him more mature, not less mature.

They reduced Angel to a teenage boy ever since he reunited for a moments with Buffy in the BTVS Series Finale and got jealous about her relationship with Spike. I don't think he ever recovered from that.