Ashes Fall

No, this could not have been an option because:

1. I've heard that by 'Heartthrob' they were trying to deviate from BtVS associations (i.e I believe this has something to do with the reason, from a writing perspective, that Cordelia encouraged everyone to refer to Buffy as 'the B-word) and BtVS changing networks made crossovers more difficult. Hence we didn't get B/A's second to last reunion after Buffy's resurrection on-screen.

2. That would have royally pissed me off. Like TGIQ-can-barely-contain-myself-from-throwing-things-at-my-TV pissed off.

Cangelforever

Ok maybe she could my have used Biffy but if Jasmine really was manipulating things the whole time she could have done other things to stop Cangel’s connection from becoming what it became like for example after the whole Darla thing make sure Cordelia never forgives Angel. We know Jasmine had mind control powers so just mind control her into not forgiving Angel. My point is it makes absolutely no sense that Jasmine would just let A/C build the relationship they did if she was there the whole time. There were ways to make sure Angel and Cordelia never fall in love.

straws

That's why I think he was doing a Becoming Part 2 parallel that was going to end with Angel having his 'close your eyes' moment and having to kill Cordy.

We all know Cordy was not exactly Joss' favorite character either. Greenie is the one who wanted her on ATS.

I would've liked to see Dark Messiah Cordy redeemed (especially as redemption arcs were basically made for this show) but IDK, I'm not sure I trust Joss wouldn't have still made it end in a horribly painful way.

Yeah, TPTB are dicks. But at some point they just start to look straight up callous and evil and like they don't care for their champions/the people who fight for them at all, so I have to believe that even the real TPTB wouldn't be that big of a dick to Cordy.
Well as we know, we can't trust anything out of Skip's mouth but I like what you said here as the explanation:

I am a giant softie and I do love the idea of love being the one thing the gods can't control.

So if Doyle loved Cordy and that enabled him to accidentally pass on the visions, than I can 'buy' that the powers weren't able to stop it from happening and saw it as a 'mistake outside their control.

I like to think Jasmine had nothing to do with Darla coming back and all that and just saw Angel/Darla sleeping together as her big opportunity.

I mean, was she even at full power at that time? Why did she want a body so badly? Crafting her perfect vessel must've made her more powerful.

I also wonder if (since she's more of a 'fallen/banished' god than a demon) she needed 'permission' to possess Cordelia, and that's why she had to manipulate her into being 'demonized' and then ascending.

She was so resistant, refusing to leave without telling Angel and then suddenly she says this? Which is exactly what Phantom-Cordy said to her in the mirror earlier that episode:

The whole thing feels off/suspicious.

Oh, interesting thought. That works.

Also, ironically, isn't Connor the one who killed Jasmine? So she went to all this trouble to use him to create a physical container/vessel for herself and he was also her own demise.

The only thing about that is that Skip is also in 'That Vision Thing' which came way before Birthday. Was he he a double agent even then and already a Jasmine-ite? Did that have anything to do with her, or was it just a coincidence and he didn't start to do her bidding until later?

Anyone else remember the paper ads The WB used to put out?



*shudders* Lord, this was a painful time to be a CA shipper.

And this one...



Spuffy got much better ones.

straws

Re: The Tumblr

So our CA tumblr is pretty much set up. It just needs a couple more things.

1. Where is says 'recent updates' what do we want to put there? I was thinking we could just say 'blog created xxdatehere' or something. Then I can update it with the tag page once I get around to creating that. Or we can put the Angel 20 year reunion there for now.

2. Where the sidebar says: What do we want here? Something short like 'cangel & ats'. IDK.

3. Does the icon show for your guys? For some reason it still looks like we don't have an icon when I'm on my phone. This must be fixed.

4. I also added some posts to the quene so the blog will auto update for the next week.

Ashes Fall

*shutters*
I can't even...NO!

True, the PTB have to give some semblance of a crap about the people fighting for them. YW is a testament to that.
"The powers that be owed me one and I didn't waste it."
That wording tells me that Cordelia had requested that last day with Angel.

Mmm, we can't trust almost anything out of Skip's mouth.
He was obviously right concerning the visions being a death sentence for humans unless Tammy could have been a fake apparition...or even The First (literally just came up with that one now)!

Well Christ! How did THAT not occur to me?!

IA

I just thought Cordy had to be part higher being to be able to contain Jasmine until her *shutters* self birth but I like this idea as well. That Cordy had to be a willing participant regardless of her ignorance of what she was consenting to.

Consent/choice was pretty much the core of the entire process because it's what upheld the facade but perhaps other aspects as well. I.e perhaps the 'part-demon' transformation couldn't take place without consent or because Skip was having to hide behind the laws of the PTB.

Ah, the Mirror-Cordy talk.
That felt to me like the exact conversation she has with Skip a little later that was edited to conveniently cut the ascension scam and focus on Angel. So quite possibly a cryptic attempt at intervention by the PTB.

Yes, Connor was the one who killed Jasmine.
Interestingly, I've heard that there was interest in having Cordelia awaken from her coma and be the one to kill Jasmine but Charisma was unable to give such a performance due to her pregnancy, as she was nearing her due date and I believe there might have been something about a scheduling conflict.

I checked the transcript for 'Inside Out', not a coincidence:

SKIP
(walks toward Angel) You know, the worst part about signing on for this gig (punches Angel) was having to take a dive when you rescued that runt Billy from his box of fire. (kicks Angel across the room) I mean, come on! You really think a guy built like this would be so easy to drop? (walks up to Angel again) This time we do it for real, champion. This time... (grins) you lose.

You can tell too in that VT fight. His effort changes dramatically. He starts out throwing Angel around like a rag doll and then suddenly it's as though someone drained his strength with the snap of their fingers.

Also, I found this quote which answers the question of where the possession started:

ANGEL
You said it yourself, you were there. (walks up to Skip) Guiding Cordelia to her ascension, seeing her off to a higher plane which is exactly where this thing needed her to be to make its move.

I always figured that the confusing part is the amnesia. Jasmine seemingly couldn't take control with it in place which supports a theory I was told that the PTB had planted it as a shield.
That still wouldn't tell us much of anything if it's true though.

I'm a latecomer, a REALLY latecomer, 2013 but Christ on a cracker! That's just downright bullying!
Fans I get, hell JOSS I get, but how could even the press hate C/A, be so disrespectful?! Did Joss suggest those taglines?!

Ashes Fall

Listing the reunion sounds good.

I'm bad at Tumblr.

I see the icon.

Sweet!

straws

Hmm...cool thought.
Cordy was definitely dying, though, because she had all those hospital scans at her apartment.

YW felt like TPTB's way of saying they knew they failed Cordy and were giving her something in return.

I like both of these ideas. That it was part making-Cordy's-body strong enough to house Jasmine and also part Skip using it as the perfect cover to pretend he was doing TPTB's work instead of Jasmine's.

I wonder why Jasmine chose Cordelia, though. Did the visions make her different in some way or did it just put her in the perfect place/time for Jasmine to see that she could use her?

This is how the BuffWiki describes it:
So do you think the real powers ever wanted Cordelia to ascend and then Skip interfered, perverting it into Jasmine's birth/escape route, or do you think it was 100% fake and the powers had no idea?

How did freeing Billy have anything to do with Jasmine, though? Why did Skip have to lose that fight? So weird.

That's what the BuffyWiki says too. TBH I like that idea as at least the real powers attempted to help Cordy in some small way.

It was awful, dude. That time period sucked. We went from getting a lot of CA goodness in S3 to CA suddenly being a bad word and all this vitriolic bts stuff leaking about Joss in regards to CC. We were gaslit into believing Cordy was doing terrible things (like sleeping with Connor ) until it was finally revealed that she'd been possessed and by then a lot of people were still done with CA cause it had tainted it/left such a bad taste in their mouth.

And, of course, the BAers were having a field day just loving how much CA and Cordy was being assassinated.

Cangelforever

I think Skip was working with Jasmine the whole time. Ironically I think That Vision Thing for Jasmine was pretty much a test for Angel to see how deep his relationship was with Cordelia and how far he would go to save her. I think Cordelia got on Jasmine's radar somewhere in season 2. I think she was very much just watching then. She didn't do anything at that point. While I think the visions were definitely killing Cordelia I think Jasmine fast forwarded the process a little bit. I think while she was watching Cordelia in season 2 she didn't know what to make of Cangel and how strong that relationship was. Once she saw that Angel was willing to realse Billy into the world to save Cordelia I think that's when she saw Angel as a threat. She probably told Skip to lose that fight with Angel. Season 3 to me is just one big manipulation by Jasmine. Up until season 3 I think she was just watching Cordelia though and didn't do anything.

Ashes Fall

Right that as well.

On that topic, I wish we'd gotten a scene where AC had a heart to heart about Cordelia's being secretive about her death sentence and her astral experience with Skip.
Whenever I watch 'Birthday' and the scene where Angel scolds Cordy's comatose body:
"Why didn't you let me in, I could have helped you!?" I itch to know the answer to that.

'Inside Out' implies that some discussion did occur at some point, earlier in the same scene even as the Billy reveal when Skip has to gall to pretend he doesn't know who Cordy is but Angel knows better:
"She told me you were her guide when she decided to become half-demon."

but it would have been nice to see that discussion on screen.
Fanfics use a damn good theory though that the secrecy was because she didn't want Angel and Co. wasting their time and effort on what she perceived as the inevitable.

Don't even get me started on how no one seems to care that she allowed her body to changed by a stranger and with Powers know what.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that it was nothing special, just that she was an easy target but I scanned the entire Skip dialogue in 'Inside Out', that's never discussed. Hmmm?

No. I don't believe the real powers would have ascended her alive, that's another thing that smelled fishy about that whole thing and the one red flag Angel should have spotted.
Her powers when she was made a higher power after her death vs. if memory serves her ability to do little to nothing else but watch in 'The House Always Wins' could be a testament to this.

Yeah, he didn't explain that the quote I posted was the only comment made. #badwriting
My theory was that Jasmine needed to ensure that Angel could fulfill W&H's request in exchange for "fixing" her vessel.

Yeah, but it was an idiotic attempt. How were Angel and Co. supposed to have figured that out?


Yeah, and one could swear Joss wanted fans to hate her!

Cangelforever

My theory on why Cordelia didn't talk to Angel about what was happening to her with the visions was that she didn't want to worry him and the team with what was happening to her and Angel would have insisted that she get rid of the visions and I think a small part of her always feared that she wouldn't be useful to Angel anymore. I don't think that fear ever went away for her. I think the reason that Cordelia was such an easy target to Jasmine was because she had the visions and it was easy for Jasmine to use the fact that the visions were killing her to get Cordy to the place she needed her to be at so Jasmine could take control of her. I understand that TPTB tried to help Cordelia by using the memory loss as a shield against Jasmine but what I don't understand is why didn't they interfere after she became "half demon"? They had to know what happened to her so why didn't they give her a vision that it wasn't actually them or get a message to Angel somehow. They really failed her.

straws

Hmm...I like this theory. Jasmine definitely used Angel's feelings for Cordelia to her advantage and to distract him and the Fang Gang so that she could cause chaos right under their noses. Cordelia was the perfect cover in that sense. They all loved her.

Why S2?

I wonder if Cordy had been on her radar since S1 when she received the visions. The visions were probably what drew Jasmine to Cordy in the first place. Cordy's visions = a direct line to the powers, and who else in the world had such a direct line?

I like the idea that Jasmine somehow sped up Cordy dying from the visions.That I can see/like cause it means Jasmine was playing them but she's not all powerful either and is still only able to manipulate what was already going to happen.
We've gone back and forth on this before and IA. I really wanted to see that scene. i know it happened off screen but it was important for us to see it. She had been dying and was lying to her closest friends for who knows how long. That's not something that gets swept under the rug.

Thank god for fanfic.

Anyway, IA that she lied for many reasons. Fear that Angel & Co would take the visions away, a fatalistic pov (like you said, she felt there was no solution and it'd just cause them undue pain because Angel would never give up), 1 part denial (she knew it would happen 'one day' but thought she still had time), etc.

Oh, yeah. She felt/looked like a prisoner in there. it was super fishy. Good point about The House Always Wins. (I hate that episode btw lol) I can't imagine the real powers would keep her there if she didn't want to be there either?

That's interesting too. That Jasmine saw what W&H were doing to her vessel and made sure Angel stopped it. Okay, I can buy that.

IDEK. I want to assume the memory loss thing was the powers attempts to help but failing. Maybe they originally tried to cast Jasmine out but Jasmine was too strong and it backfired into memory loss? I can't. The plot holes are too much. lol

I feel like we're putting more thought into this than Joss did.

Honestly, Joss is smart and knew what he was doing. Part of me strongly believes he did want to turn the audience on Cordy/CC.



Yeah, TPTB have proven time and time again they ain't ****.

Hey, fun question, who's more incompetent: the watcher's council or tptb?

straws

https://therearenopeoplelikeus.tumbl...t/186031504415

Ashes Fall

But Angel's love for Cordy was of no use to Jasmine after TVT. So why test it?

That's more or less Skip's claim:

ANGEL
Ah, it doesn't make sense. Cordy was made a higher being because she proved herself to the Powers by bearing their visions. This thing couldn't have—

WESLEY
Unless it maneuvered her to inherit the visions in the first place.

SKIP
Uh, oh. Better step on it. The rubes are catching up.

but remember we can't trust Skip.

The opposite, that she ensured that Cordy lasted longer than the average year a human can last with the visions makes more sense because Connor was still in the works by 'Birthday' (he was still an infant).


IA.
She proved in Pylea that she's not willing to give up the visions and denial was def there:

Cordy: That's just a fancy way of saying---
Angel: She's dying.
Cordy: *looking spooked, like it hit her for the first time* I like the fancy way better.


That amnesia is the bi-product of a failed attempt by the PTB to banish Jasmine is interesting. I'm a tad skeptical that they could fail but overall can still get on board with it.

There's no way we're not.

Cangelforever

The reason I say Cordelia didn't get on Jasmine's radar until season 2 is because she needed to know that Cordy could hold them and they wouldn't kill her right away. From what I got from the show is that not everyone could hold the visions and that was what made her so special.
Even though they were killing her Cordelia proved she could hold power inside her. I think in season 1 Cordelia was probably a blip on Jasmine's radar but once she saw she could hold and manage them that's when she really caught Jasmine's attention. IA that TPTB would have never kept Cordelia up in the higher planes against her will. I mean they let her spend her last day on earth with Angel. I think they did care about Cordelia in their own way they just did not do enough to help her in my opinion. I could get on board with the idea that the PTB tried to cast Jasmine out and it backfired. Maybe they intended to send Cordelia back without Jasmine in her to Angel so that he could help and protect her but it backfired. I think Jasmine saw the Cangel relationship as a threat and she wanted to know how strong that bond was. Once she saw that Angel was willing to bring Billy into the world she saw he would go to any lengths to save her and that was a threat to her and something she wanted to control. Their love may not have been of any use to her after TVT but it was defintely a threat which is why she wanted to keep them apart.

straws

Using Cordy's body let her get away with a lot of crap because she'd infiltrated their most trusted inner circle. Plus maybe also because no one could head**** with Angel as much as 'Cordy' at that point in time?

It's S4. We must grasp at straws if we want logic. And I just realized that could've been a horrible pun of my username, but it's not meant to be.
Blah. I hate that, though. (The idea that Jasmine was responsible for Cordy getting the visions.) I'd much rather the visions just put Jasmine on her radar, especially after Angel & Darla slept together, if Jasmine helped to make his birth possible.

If Jasmine was responsible for Cordy getting the visions, did that mean she was also watching Doyle prior to that?

I like the idea of Cordy just being incredibly headstrong and determined and able to take more pain than the average person which in part is why she survived longer though and not because Jasmine kept her alive.

it never occurred to me at first that when Cordy chose not to give Groo the visions in Pylea she was already choosing to die for them as she'd already been dealing with her diagnosis in secret.

Yeah, I feel like the powers should definitely have more, uh, power, but that'd make things too easy I guess. Also, at least if someone was going to pull a fast one on the powers or be a formidable opponent to them it was also someone of arguably equal power being that Jasmine was a fallen one.





https://daddypadackles.tumblr.com/po...er-episode-302

So many good things in this gifset.

The way he smiles at her in the first gif. He is literally so happy just being in her presence and seeing that she is okay.

CC looking adorable in those pigtails

The parallel to Angel making her omelette in S1 and now she's cooking for him (okay, she toasted some waffles, but still, it's the thought that counts. And she made him fresh coffee just like she sometimes prepared his blood. ) So domestic, I can't.

Do you think he ate the waffles just to make her feel good? He's not Spike, he doesn't like human food, but it totally seems like Angel's going to attempt to eat them even though he's looking at them like 'what do I do with this?'

Also, I'm head cannoning that Angel decided to cook her/the team a big meal because of her 'big industrial kitchen that we never use' comment and decided to put the kitchen to good use for her -- since we all know Angel's a surprisingly good cook for a guy who doesn't eat.