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Old 05-07-2018, 08:31 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post)
Well, there's no need to feign confusion over this. Joss and Marti were trying to turn the show into something else entirely in the College years, and using Willow's character to do it. They were trying to force the acceptance of lesbianism onto us. Simple as that. No need to beat around the bush.


They went too far, in my opinion. It was made clear from the beginning that Willow's attraction to Tara had nothing to do with the fact that she was female. They had the loneliness and the witchcraft in common. Willow was completely lost after the Oz devastation. He left a huge void. No-one can ever tell me that their love wasn't real.


I have nothing against a show needing to branch out and cover relevant social topics and mature their characters. That said, I prefer the simpler times for Willow's character when she was in love with Oz and another werewolf wasn't around the corner ready to snatch him up (god, I hated Veruca)
Pretty much and the thing is that it wasn't bad that Willow fell in love with Tara but turning her completely lesbian and acting like Willow being with guys was the worst thing was the issue for me.

You are really telling me just because she was with Tara, any attraction she had to guys faded? I felt that storyline ONLY would have worked if during the first 3 seasons we actually saw Willow struggle with her sexuality and trying to fit into relationships with guys but something always felt off to her. That was not the case. Willow was very much crushing pretty hardly on Xander for a lot of her early years and Oz is the one she loved deeply.

Willow took Oz leaving pretty hard and her heart was hurt over it. She was depressed and felt no one cared about what she was going through which is than when she met Tara and right when she met Tara, her feelings for Oz didn't fade away because they were connecting through their magical connection but for the first few episodes Willow was only pretty much thinking about Oz.

Willow did NOT fall in love at first sight with Tara, it took her some time because she was still recovering from Oz and I think she loved who Tara was as a person and she loved the witchcraft connection that they had and it's how she slowly truly fell in love with her. It had nothing to do with Tara being a woman. Which is why I dislike how after Tara, Willow is suddenly full on lesbian.... it didn't make much sense.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:05 AM
  #62
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It would have made more sense if Willow was pansexual, if not bisexual, because I agree that she didn't fall for Tara because she was a woman, she fell for her because of who she was & she just happed to be a woman. Until then, she'd never shown any attraction to women

Plus, if Oz had come back sooner before Willow had mostly moved on from him & her feelings for Tara had gotten deeper, then I think she would have happily gotten back together with him & never would have questioned it. It didn't really have anything to do with the fact that Willow had to choose between a man & a woman, it was simply about her feelings & gender didn't really factor into it imo.

I think if this show was on now, it would have been handled differently.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:53 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post)
Great observation. Bestiality and witches, both of which Oz and Willow seemed to grow unhealthily addicted to as they grew apart. I liked the metaphor for College being experimentation period, but they took it too far. I didn't buy the Oz/Veruca thing for one moment. Oz might lose himself when the wolf takes over, but he was already starting to sense her when they first caught sight of each other. Marti Noxon depicted it was more of a sexual attraction, which is what I hated. Oz is better than that.

It definitely drew them together. Willow noticed how Tara was more involved with magic at the Club than the other girls were. That outsider feeling drew them close.
technically it's not bestiality cause they were both wolves at the same time and Tara's death drove Willow over to the dark side literally with her addiction to magic but yeah her addiction was already in full force before Tara's death
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Old 05-08-2018, 04:43 PM
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Rewatching S2 and I love Oz and Willow even more (but I'm surprised he's not around much until it's revealed he's a werewolf. I remember him being around way more in S2) I loved in the beginning he just kept noticing Willow and saying "Who is that girl?" lol. Oz is such a great guy and I'm glad Willow wanted to be with him, they were such a cute couple. I wish they didn't break them up.
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Old 05-08-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Butterfly85 (View Post)
I loved in the beginning he just kept noticing Willow and saying "Who is that girl?" lol.
that was the cutest :')

I love that she was like the only girl in the room to him
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:03 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by eternalfate (View Post)
Pretty much and the thing is that it wasn't bad that Willow fell in love with Tara but turning her completely lesbian and acting like Willow being with guys was the worst thing was the issue for me.

You are really telling me just because she was with Tara, any attraction she had to guys faded? I felt that storyline ONLY would have worked if during the first 3 seasons we actually saw Willow struggle with her sexuality and trying to fit into relationships with guys but something always felt off to her. That was not the case. Willow was very much crushing pretty hardly on Xander for a lot of her early years and Oz is the one she loved deeply.
Exactly. It didn't fit with anything that had come pre-Season 4, only Willow's doppelganger was gay but it's still a different personality and I don't see how that comes into play because evil!Willow detested all men except Vamp Xander. In fact, she was attracted to Angel.


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It would have made more sense if Willow was pansexual, if not bisexual, because I agree that she didn't fall for Tara because she was a woman, she fell for her because of who she was & she just happed to be a woman. Until then, she'd never shown any attraction to women

Plus, if Oz had come back sooner before Willow had mostly moved on from him & her feelings for Tara had gotten deeper, then I think she would have happily gotten back together with him & never would have questioned it. It didn't really have anything to do with the fact that Willow had to choose between a man & a woman, it was simply about her feelings & gender didn't really factor into it imo.

I think if this show was on now, it would have been handled differently.

What I hate is that labeling Willow as a lesbian immediately discredits her romance with Oz. And it shouldn't, because that was one of the most important and well-loved relationships ever on BTVS.


Marti Noxon was infuriating on the DVD Special Features when she talked about how Oz turned into a werewolf in front of Tara when he realized she was dating Willow... Noxon basically saying here that she wanted to depict Oz as the domineering male disgusted by the idea of his ex-girlfriend dating a girl, in other words - make him the bad guy so that the audience will root for Tara. I can't handle that level of ill-treatment. Oz was an amazing guy.
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Old 05-10-2018, 02:46 AM
  #67
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That is so frustrating to hear. Why ruin a character that they depicted as completely the opposite of that to further a plot that they could have done in a thousand other ways. That's just bad storytelling, you should be able to write a storyline without having to change the characters to do that

& that's why I see Willow as bi, because it doesn't discredit her relationship with Oz & we all know that that was real. As we've already said, if Seth Green wasn't leaving they would have stayed together....until they would have probably killed Oz off so that they could have Willow go dark.

Plus, I was thinking about how in Restless, Oz was there in Willow's dreams, so I think that shows that he was still important to her, so it wasn't as cut & dry as she chose Tara & that was that.

Either way, nothing is going to stop us from shipping Willow & Oz!
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:00 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by starryeyesxx (View Post)
That is so frustrating to hear. Why ruin a character that they depicted as completely the opposite of that to further a plot that they could have done in a thousand other ways. That's just bad storytelling, you should be able to write a storyline without having to change the characters to do that

Marti Noxon cared more about Bangel than anything else on the show, so I'm not surprised she was willing to sacrifice Oz's integrity for the sake of having Willow move on

Marti's speech on the DVD really annoyed me, because it emphasized that they forced Oz to act and think in a prejudiced way regarding W/T to make the audience root for Tara. This tells me that audiences really weren't happy with how they handled Oz's departure in Wild At Heart. Writers often act quick to try and resolve relationships which are left on cliffhangers because they worry that audiences won't adjust to new love interests. They clearly just wanted us to to forget Oz at this point. Yeah, not gonna happen


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As we've already said, if Seth Green wasn't leaving they would have stayed together....until they would have probably killed Oz off so that they could have Willow go dark.

I've often wondered if they would have gone down the Willow's addiction route in Season 6 if Oz had still been around. It seemed like something they did to drive a wedge between her and Tara, to emphasize Tara's lessening interest in using powers and Willow's lust for power after healing Tara's mind in Season 5.

I would have loved to have seen Oz help Willow through her addiction.


Quote:
Plus, I was thinking about how in Restless, Oz was there in Willow's dreams, so I think that shows that he was still important to her, so it wasn't as cut & dry as she chose Tara & that was that.

I love Restless

I agree with you - I think Joss was throwing Oz a bone in this episode, and letting the audience know in a subtle way that Willow still thinks about him and their promise to each other that they might meet on "a corner in Istanbul" someday.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:05 PM
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Having Seth Green back probably wasn't a small feat, so it must have been important - we had all of the major players in Willow's life, so of course, Oz had to be there

I think that they wanted Willow to go dark regardless of who she was with, so I think that storyline would have gone the same way unforunately
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:05 PM
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Having Seth Green back probably wasn't a small feat, so it must have been important - we had all of the major players in Willow's life, so of course, Oz had to be there

I think that they wanted Willow to go dark regardless of who she was with, so I think that storyline would have gone the same way unforunately
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:38 PM
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I've often wondered if they would have gone down the Willow's addiction route in Season 6 if Oz had still been around. It seemed like something they did to drive a wedge between her and Tara, to emphasize Tara's lessening interest in using powers and Willow's lust for power after healing Tara's mind in Season 5.

I would have loved to have seen Oz help Willow through her addiction.
^agreed that would've been interesting to see
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:41 PM
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I too would have been interested in seeing that, to be honest
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:12 AM
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If Oz ended up getting shot instead, I would of hated that but I would believe Willow turning evil over Oz dying more than Tara.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:20 AM
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Interesting points. The writers did make a mistake by making Willow's feelings for Oz not matter as much like Tia said by only calling Willow a lesbian after Oz left. I just think that if she had those massive feelings for Oz, then she would be considered bisexual. The only hint of Willow being gay in any way before Tara ever came into the picture was Doppelgangland. So I can see why people would see her change in season 4 being all of a sudden.

I don't see Willow going into a magic addiction when Oz is around and Tara never existed in the series. I'm sorry, I don't see it.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:58 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post)
Exactly. It didn't fit with anything that had come pre-Season 4, only Willow's doppelganger was gay but it's still a different personality and I don't see how that comes into play because evil!Willow detested all men except Vamp Xander. In fact, she was attracted to Angel.





What I hate is that labeling Willow as a lesbian immediately discredits her romance with Oz. And it shouldn't, because that was one of the most important and well-loved relationships ever on BTVS.


Marti Noxon was infuriating on the DVD Special Features when she talked about how Oz turned into a werewolf in front of Tara when he realized she was dating Willow... Noxon basically saying here that she wanted to depict Oz as the domineering male disgusted by the idea of his ex-girlfriend dating a girl, in other words - make him the bad guy so that the audience will root for Tara. I can't handle that level of ill-treatment. Oz was an amazing guy.
Completely agree and I know that people will say that Willow's season 3 vampire doppelganger being attracted to girl was foreshadowing to Willow... which as you mentioned was not true since Vamp!Willow main love was a man in Xander.

No one fault that the writers didn't know how to write it perfectly.

I agree with you.
Willow was very much in love with Oz and it took her a very long time to get over him. She cried when he left and was depressed for a few months. She even lashed out at one time for no one understanding her pain. And I think that's why Tara came in at the first time because Tara did listen to her feelings and they connected through their witch craft.

URG! I never knew about that commentary. I really dislike hearing that.


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Interesting points. The writers did make a mistake by making Willow's feelings for Oz not matter as much like Tia said by only calling Willow a lesbian after Oz left. I just think that if she had those massive feelings for Oz, then she would be considered bisexual. The only hint of Willow being gay in any way before Tara ever came into the picture was Doppelgangland. So I can see why people would see her change in season 4 being all of a sudden.

I don't see Willow going into a magic addiction when Oz is around and Tara never existed in the series. I'm sorry, I don't see it.

That's what my issue definitely was that Willow labeled herself as a lesbian and had no attraction to men at all anymore.
Bisexual route would have been way better for me.

I don't see the magic addiction with Oz around as well.
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