Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Episode Discussion: 2x22 Becoming, Part 2 - Page 2

TheCheshireKitten · 12-13-2004, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by loquacity
IMO, this was the show at its brilliant peak and was the fabulous culmination of probably the best season of the show (even though S3 was consistantly better but S2 had higher highs).

ITA.

I loved, loved, loved this episode. I remember watching it for the first time and being upset in school the next day because I just kept thinking about it. That was when Buffy was more than just a tv show for me. I basically lived and breathed Buffy during season two and through season three.

Night Nymph · 12-14-2004, 08:16 AM

I loved this episode, too. It had many, many major turning points for most of the characters.

Spike forming his uneasy alliance with Buffy was great. I knew that he was up to something after I Only Have Eyes For You, but this was an interetsing twist, and for me, an important one. It demonstrated that Spike wasn't just the "Big Bad" that some describe as the important part of his character in season 2 and 3. It showed that he was at that time, and probably had always been, all about the love of his life. Yup, he liked the chaos and the "crunch" of destruction, but when it came down to it, he put that aside and teamed up with his mortal enemy to get Drusilla back. That was a big deal, as evidenced by how it shaped the rest of his (un)life.

It was also a big deal for Buffy, because even though reluctantly, she did agree, knowing that in the end, it would mean letting both Spike and Drusilla go. It was the beginning of her real compromises in the name of fighting evil. That she also had to send Angel to hell started her difficulties with the fear of losing another loved one. I'm not sure - at least not until much later - that she got over that fear. When Joyce rejected her as the Slayer, it might have started some of Buffy's feelings that no one understood her or what she had to do as the Slayer, because not even her mother accepted it.

For Willow, it was her first forray into really powerful magic and the first time that she makes a decision that negatively impacts Buffy in a big way.

For Xander - well I know bringing up "the lie" will annoy some people, but I do think it was important. Just because it might've been "the right thing to do" doesn't mean that's why he lied. I think he lied because he wanted Angel dead, not because it would help Buffy in the fight. I also think that even though he had Cordelia (who he knew cared about him a great deal - as she admitted in Go Fish), Xander still wanted Buffy for himself: the beginning, or at least an affirmation of, a pattern he would repeat often - wanting the woman he didn't have rather than the one who cared about him standing right in front of him.

For Giles, it marked perhaps one of his worst torments. Having his mind twisted into believing Jennie was there was something that actually broke his will to resist. We aren't positive, but that was likely the first time that occurred for him.

And for Angel, it got him sent to hell. No need to explain why that is a big deal.

It's also in this episode where Oz learns how powerful Willow can be and how potentially dangerous her magic can be for her.

Cordelia - well she's Cordelia, but I'm sure there was something there that I'm forgetting.

Okay - I've gone on enough. Time to give someone else a go.

I did want to add though - I disagree about season 3. I thought season 2, despite a few bad episodes, had a much better arc, Big Bad, impact, and story than season 3 - which is one of my least favorite Buffy seasons.

**Fortyseven** · 12-14-2004, 05:40 PM

I made two arts...

Andalusia · 12-15-2004, 06:44 PM

Best. Episode. EVER ! The only episode of any show on telly that made me really cry.

Alea · 12-15-2004, 10:21 PM

Ah. Becoming. When I firststarted seriously shipping Buffy/Spike (of course, I still loved Buffy/Angelus back then too. Still do.)

Shipping aside, this episode was probably, in my opinion, one of the most powerful episode. It had everything. It brought tears to my eyes, and I seriously cried for weeks after this episode, swearing i'd never watch the show again (but I did.)

I think this episode kind of ruined the rest of the show for me. In my head, i'd compare every other episode to it, and none of them really compared. It was some good ass writing for this episode.

Still one of my ultimate fav episodes.

*Alea*

Pace & Jo · 12-17-2004, 03:38 AM

I just started watching this show when the FX began airing it from the beginning this last time. Righ now I am in season 3, but so far this is my favorite episode.

I actually started crying when she killed Angel. He looked so confused and like a lost puppy. He just clung onto Buffy because he didn't know what happened. "Full of Grace: made that scene so much more heartwrenching.

I don't come on here that much bc I don't want to be spoiled, but I had to give my 2 cents of this episode.

**Jaime Bee** · 12-17-2004, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alea
Ah. Becoming. When I firststarted seriously shipping Buffy/Spike (of course, I still loved Buffy/Angelus back then too. Still do.)

Shipping aside, this episode was probably, in my opinion, one of the most powerful episode. It had everything. It brought tears to my eyes, and I seriously cried for weeks after this episode, swearing i'd never watch the show again (but I did.)

I think this episode kind of ruined the rest of the show for me. In my head, i'd compare every other episode to it, and none of them really compared. It was some good ass writing for this episode. Still one of my ultimate fav episodes.

*Alea*

Wow you saw the magic of Spuffy long before anybody else!

Oh this was definetely one of the best episodes but The Gift is my favorite finale. I cried way more during it.

Jacaroo · 12-19-2004, 07:00 AM

"Close your eyes."

'Nuff said.

**Jaime Bee** · 12-20-2004, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Night Nymph
I loved this episode, too. It had many, many major turning points for most of the characters.

Spike forming his uneasy alliance with Buffy was great. I knew that he was up to something after I Only Have Eyes For You, but this was an interetsing twist, and for me, an important one. It demonstrated that Spike wasn't just the "Big Bad" that some describe as the important part of his character in season 2 and 3. It showed that he was at that time, and probably had always been, all about the love of his life. Yup, he liked the chaos and the "crunch" of destruction, but when it came down to it, he put that aside and teamed up with his mortal enemy to get Drusilla back. That was a big deal, as evidenced by how it shaped the rest of his (un)life.

It was also a big deal for Buffy, because even though reluctantly, she did agree, knowing that in the end, it would mean letting both Spike and Drusilla go. It was the beginning of her real compromises in the name of fighting evil. That she also had to send Angel to hell started her difficulties with the fear of losing another loved one. I'm not sure - at least not until much later - that she got over that fear. When Joyce rejected her as the Slayer, it might have started some of Buffy's feelings that no one understood her or what she had to do as the Slayer, because not even her mother accepted it.

For Willow, it was her first forray into really powerful magic and the first time that she makes a decision that negatively impacts Buffy in a big way.

For Xander - well I know bringing up "the lie" will annoy some people, but I do think it was important. Just because it might've been "the right thing to do" doesn't mean that's why he lied. I think he lied because he wanted Angel dead, not because it would help Buffy in the fight. I also think that even though he had Cordelia (who he knew cared about him a great deal - as she admitted in Go Fish), Xander still wanted Buffy for himself: the beginning, or at least an affirmation of, a pattern he would repeat often - wanting the woman he didn't have rather than the one who cared about him standing right in front of him.

For Giles, it marked perhaps one of his worst torments. Having his mind twisted into believing Jennie was there was something that actually broke his will to resist. We aren't positive, but that was likely the first time that occurred for him.

And for Angel, it got him sent to hell. No need to explain why that is a big deal.

It's also in this episode where Oz learns how powerful Willow can be and how potentially dangerous her magic can be for her.

Cordelia - well she's Cordelia, but I'm sure there was something there that I'm forgetting.

Okay - I've gone on enough. Time to give someone else a go.

I did want to add though - I disagree about season 3. I thought season 2, despite a few bad episodes, had a much better arc, Big Bad, impact, and story than season 3 - which is one of my least favorite Buffy seasons.

Oh yeah you are right this episode did have alot of turning points and really forshadows some of the stuff that happened later.

Oh I really hate that Xander didn't tell Buffy the truth. Because having to kill Angel left such a huge scar and Xander had to know what pain her having to kill the man she loved would cause!

Bronson · 12-23-2004, 11:59 PM

Yes, Xander was wrong to lie to Buffy regarding Willow's message. The fight scene between Buffy and Angelous was great. It was hearbreaking for Buffy to have to kill him in the end. My only gripe is that neither Buffy or Faith ever dealt with Drusilla for killing Kendra.

Ragnarok · 12-25-2004, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bronson
My only gripe is that neither Buffy or Faith ever dealt with Drusilla for killing Kendra.

Bite your tongue, man! Drusilla was such a terrific character, I wouldn't ever want to see her staked. I didn't hate Kendra, but she was pretty one-dimensional and had served her purpose by the time Dru took her out.

I don't think Buffy began compromising in this episode, although her deal with Spike was undoubtedly very important. For me, the deal she made in Lie To Me was the beginning. She let Drusilla live after Spike released the hostages and ran off, knowing that Spike and his gang would eventually break out of the basement. I would argue that the fact that Spike was willing to trade all of those people to save Drusilla made it possible for her to believe him when he approached her in this episode.

I don't agree that Joyce's reaction had much significance other than the obviously traumatic fact of being rejected by her mother. She already had surrounded herself with people who accepted who and what she was, so she wouldn't have had reason to think that Joyce's reaction was in any way typical.

I also think the significance for Willow's future character development often gets overlooked. Willow jumped way into the deep end with the resouling spell. She was clearly not in control of what ahe was doing after a certain point, yet managed to make the spell work. She also got her first taste of serious power. IMO, she learned all the wrong lessons from it and thus we got the seriously careless yet powerful witch she became.

Bronson · 12-26-2004, 10:50 AM

I understood Buffy needing Spike's help and did not see it as compromising who she was. As to dealing with Drusilla, I agree she was a facinating character and I was not suggesting that Buffy take her out at that point maybe in Season 6 or 7 if ever. I just meant that here was the killer of a Slayer and the two reining Slayers Buffy and Faith never took her out.

As to Joyce's reaction, she felt that that she was kept out of Buffy's life and was angry. One can understand her telling Buffy the standard, if you leave, don't come back thing.

Willow did do pretty good in getting Angel's soul back and yes at some point she did seem to lose control but it worked well.

Night Nymph · 12-30-2004, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok
I don't think Buffy began compromising in this episode, although her deal with Spike was undoubtedly very important. For me, the deal she made in Lie To Me was the beginning. She let Drusilla live after Spike released the hostages and ran off, knowing that Spike and his gang would eventually break out of the basement. I would argue that the fact that Spike was willing to trade all of those people to save Drusilla made it possible for her to believe him when he approached her in this episode.

I don't agree that Joyce's reaction had much significance other than the obviously traumatic fact of being rejected by her mother. She already had surrounded herself with people who accepted who and what she was, so she wouldn't have had reason to think that Joyce's reaction was in any way typical.

Good point about Lie to Me being a compromise as well, but Buffy did have to think fast in that situation. She didn't have many choices to save those people, and if she had dusted Drusilla after Spike let the people go, she would've been going back on her implied word. Similar to the way that Buffy likely belived Spike later on in Becoming because of the deal in Lie to Me - and good point there Ragnarok - I also think that maybe Spike dared to approach Buffy to team up because of the fact that Buffy did keep her part of the bargain. Of course if she had dusted Drusilla, Spike would've had little or no reason to help Buffy, but the fact that she had been willing to keep her word, likely made it possible for Spike to believe that she would do it again and make him more willing to go to her again in this episode. So perhaps you are correct, Ragnarok that this was not the first compromise in the fight against evil, but I still think it was another big step on the compromise scale.

Buffy clearly was not going to let Drusilla live - she at first said "no way". There were no immediate people to save that she had to make this promise for. She had a moment to weigh the choices, and she chose to let Spike have Drusilla as part of the deal because she thought that it would better her chances of winning... AND (and perhaps this is the real compromise part)... it bettered her chances of keeping Giles from dying. "He dies, she dies." She was choosing Giles over any potential victims that Drusilla might have in the future. It was also interesting that she trusted Spike, of all people, to have kept that part of the bargain - and that he had succeeded. She sent xander to get giles believing that he was still alive. And again as you said Ragnarok, it was most likely because Spike had let the people go in order to save Drusilla in the past. Buffy knew how motivated he could be.

As for Joyce - you may be right, Rag. I was mostly just throwing it out there. She did have the support of her friends and Giles, but the fact that it was her mother might have meant something. The fact that she didn't come back to let her friends help her, but left town and didn't return home might've meant something.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bronson
I understood Buffy needing Spike's help and did not see it as compromising who she was.

I didn't mean my comments to imply that Buffy was compromising who she was by agreeing to her deal with Spike. This type of compromise was likely a necessary part of her success in fighting evil. Interestingly, I perhaps didn't think of the compromise that Buffy didn't killl Drusilla in Lie to Me as her first real compromise at first, because yes, Drusilla was evil and would be killing more people, but if Buffy had killed her, it would've been "going back on her word." Yes, police lie and are allowed to do so in order to do their job, but somehow compromising her word was not something I could see Buffy doing.

In Becoming, Buffy had to make the deal with Spike to better her chances of saving the world and Giles (who likely would've been a goner if Spike hadn't stepped in because of the deal with Buffy). I don't think that kind of deal made Buffy a bad person at all, nor did it compromise who she was. I do believe that it helped towards her changing, though, by making her have to make the compromise - like a metaphore for the compromises we all must learn to make as we mature. Things then aren't always as easy as when we were young - the tough choices are hardly ever black and white. There are often shades of gray.

True Daisy lover · 12-30-2004, 09:46 PM

This episode was sad for me....

Because here you have buffy having to kill angel was the hardest thing that she has to deal with it and i cant even imagine that being the easiest thing she had to do. But i know she had to do, i was like in tears with the buffy and angel thing because at that moment i was thinking well that its for buffy and angel, nothing would be the same for them again.

Booey · 12-31-2004, 10:54 PM

I think this episode left a big emotional scar inside of Buffy, that she has never really gotten over. The issues with all of her friends, Giles, Angel, and her Mom are with her for a long time afterward.

Everyone kind of covered all the things that I would say but I just wanted to say that the part with Spike when she says they are in a band together is really funny.

Also the whole thing with Xander really does make me kind of angry.

I mean he could have warned her. Maybe she would have been able to keep Angel away from Acathla for awhile. But that could just be the B/Aer in me.

But what Xander said, "Kick his a**." Does stay with her because it obviously still affects her all the way in season 7. When she says:

BUFFY: I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.
WILLOW: And that all worked out OK.
BUFFY: Do you remember cheering me on? Both of you. Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass.
WILLOW: I never said that—
XANDER: This is different—
BUFFY: It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point, someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law.

I think that she and Angel may have been the only people to have worked out all of the issues that arise in this episode. Because Buffy and Xander have them as evidenced above and because of what Xander said she still holds it against Willow. And I think that Giles will probably never forgive Angel for what he did to him. Which I don't blame him since Angel tortured him and all. But I do think that when Angel comes to him in "Amends" it shows what kind of person Giles is when he helps him out. It is Angel though and not Angelus.

Of course Buffy's Mom never really approves of Angel, and I think that out of Buffy's beaus she likes Riley the best. I guess she just wants Buffy to have a normal relationship.

But Angel doesn't hold it against Buffy and she sent him to hell. So that is really sweet.

They get over it and just accept what happened and still love each other. And I think the best evidence of that is in "Amends" again when Buffy says:

ANGEL: Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world wants me gone!
BUFFY: (tearfully) What about me? I love you so much... And I tried to make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help. (crying) And I hate it! I hate that it's *so* hard... and that you can hurt me *so* much. I know everything that you did, because you did it to me. Oh, God! I wish that I wished you dead. I don't. (whispers) I can't.

That is all I have to say and so I am going to step down from my :soapbox: and let someone else have a go at it. Just wanted you to know how much I love this episode and everything about it. Music is

so sweet. Sarah McLachlan fan because of this episode.