Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Episode Discussion: 2x03 School Hard - Page 3

Ragnarok · 04-23-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaime Bee:
I don't know why they changed the sire thing but I tend to think that Dru was too crazy to really be a sire So Angelus of course taught him everything.

Giles also said that Spike was "barely 200" in this episode, which was contradicted in S5. I think you're on the right track, though. Spike also called Angelus his "Yoda", and we saw in AtS this year that Angelus was definitely the one who taught William the ropes after Drusilla turned him.

Quote:

Originally posted by progirl:
Evil Spike was an intresting character but he never would have made it through 4 seasons as a regular if he would have stayed a black hat.

I agree. Evil Spike who wanted to get his chip removed and kill everyone wouldn't have survived S5. I know I would have been tired of him long before the end of the season.

Quote:

Originally posted by Night Nymph:
My slight confusion came with the line sum1 mentioned "I knew you loved the Slayer" from Crush which if I remember correctly was followed by "Even before you did" which makes it even more interesting. Drusilla didn't say "I knew you were going to love the Slayer" which would've made her comments in Fool For Love definitely a reference to the future - i.e. her ability to predict what would happen later. The use of "loved" made it ambiguous. I suppose one could argue that Drusilla's non-grasp of reality makes such holding to proper tense understandable - but the qualifier "before you did" makes me wonder when that was. It couldn't have been in Crush, (because Spike already knew he loved Buffy), so it could only have meant either the last time they saw each other (in South America) or that she'd had a vision of it previously - that last one being possible, but too bad she didn't clarify it with "I saw it in my head" rather than "the Pixie's wispered it to me." So this exchange then left the Fool For Love dialogue more open for interpretation, but yeah, I wish I knew too, one of those mysteries we may never know.

I looked at the Crush transcript and I agree with you. Drusilla's having heard it from her "pixies" leaves the timing pretty open-ended. So I'm going to stick with my assumption that it was a fairly recent revelation for both Spike and Drusilla, and that I don't need to change my interpretation of the scene from Fool For Love.

Quote:

Originally posted by Night Nymph:
As for the dance scene in School Hard - I saw definite "attraction" there, but not of the "good" variety, more that Spike found Buffy very "biteable." Drusilla's "before you did" did imply Spike was unaware of his pending feelings for Buffy, so definitely at this point Spike had no idea he was going to love her.

Yep. I think the key here is Angel's line in this episode:

Quote:

Once he starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead.

Angel certainly wasn't going to read any romantic feelings into Spike's plans. What I think we were meant to understand was that Spike was an obsessive personality. ME certainly did a good job of displaying that aspect of him, in varying forms, over the remaining years of the show. I really think anyone seeing "warm fuzzies" from Spike in S2 is indulging in wishful thinking.

Quote:

Originally posted by Night Nymph:
An interesting aside - I wish I could give credit here - someone somewhere on the net brought up a very ineteresting point by asking the question about what Buffy might've thought or what might've happened had Buffy and Spike's famous exchange...

Buffy: "What happens on Saturday?"
Spike: "Saturday I kill you."

Had instead ended "Saturday I shag you." Heh heh. (Other than Drusilla staking Spike in his sleep that is.)

I could only imagine him saying that as psychological warfare - trying to get inside her head and weird her out. I suspect she'd have acquired an Angel-shaped bodyguard if that had been on the table.

Night Nymph · 04-23-2004, 09:58 PM

originally posted by Ragnarok:

Quote:

I really think anyone seeing "warm fuzzies" from Spike in S2 is indulging in wishful thinking.

I agree. The only "warm fuzzies" were for his "Dark Princess", Drusilla - where I did think he really did care about her and making her feel loved and wanted. Everyone else he likely couldn't have cared less about.

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I could only imagine him saying that as psychological warfare - trying to get inside her head and weird her out. I suspect she'd have acquired an Angel-shaped bodyguard if that had been on the table.

Definitely on the ploy to weird her out. ("Here kitty, kitty" - though not overtly sexual, had me snickering despite myself.) I always saw Spike as a character who was fairly confident in his sensuality; especially Evil Spike, though some of that might have been bravado (though he wasn't above the good innuendo even in season 4 - presumably his low point in his life ego-wise). Using such a tactic with a young woman who was innocent definitely might've been a successful ploy to rattle her, and one he likely would've felt confident using. As for the "Angel-shaped bodyguard" - if Buffy did ask for his help, I can't see her telling him exactly why. She might've chosen even to skip asking entirely (as she did with the death threat, I believe). As it was, as you pointed out, he probably would've won their fight anyway if not for Joyce's help.

Ragnarok · 04-24-2004, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Night Nymph:
Definitely on the ploy to weird her out. ("Here kitty, kitty" - though not overtly sexual, had me snickering despite myself.) I always saw Spike as a character who was fairly confident in his sensuality; especially Evil Spike, though some of that might have been bravado (though he wasn't above the good innuendo even in season 4 - presumably his low point in his life ego-wise). Using such a tactic with a young woman who was innocent definitely might've been a successful ploy to rattle her, and one he likely would've felt confident using. As for the "Angel-shaped bodyguard" - if Buffy did ask for his help, I can't see her telling him exactly why. She might've chosen even to skip asking entirely (as she did with the death threat, I believe). As it was, as you pointed out, he probably would've won their fight anyway if not for Joyce's help.

Angel's behavior early in this episode pretty much defies rational explanation. Knowing Spike as well as we now know he did, you'd think he'd have taken a few minutes out of his busy schedule to fill everyone in on Spike's history and likely actions. I'll grant you that this was a writing decision, and ME wanted to draw out the revelations about Spike and Drusilla into later episodes, but it makes we wonder why they even had him show up at the library at all.

You can interpret Spike's fondness for innuendo both ways - as confidence or lack thereof. Probably both, at different times. But if he had made the suggestion you mentioned, I don't think Buffy would have balked at telling Angel (with appropriate expressions of disgust, of course).

Edited because the quote post function did very strange things.

[ 04-24-2004: Message edited Ragnarok ]

GACT16 · 04-24-2004, 08:01 PM

This is my favorite episode from the 2nd season. It's where the most S/X & X/A slash fic stems from. We learn about sires, and of course tons of Spike numminess.

Ragnarok · 04-24-2004, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GACT16:
This is my favorite episode from the 2nd season. It's where the most S/X & X/A slash fic stems from. We learn about sires, and of course tons of Spike numminess.

I know I'm going to offend some people by saying this, but I find S/X and X/A shipping completely incomprehensible. Just completely unsupportable in canon. It's not homophobia, it's the notion of Xander and a vampire, any vampire. Even thinking about it makes me want to hit myself in the head with a rock. Ouch.

***Scythe*** · 04-25-2004, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ROCKSTAR:
<STRONG>

That's a quote from "Crush"

Dru: But its so funny, I knew you loved the Slayer</STRONG>

Of course it is!!!

sum1 · 04-25-2004, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<STRONG>I know I'm going to offend some people by saying this, but I find S/X and X/A shipping completely incomprehensible. Just completely unsupportable in canon. It's not homophobia, it's the notion of Xander and a vampire, any vampire. Even thinking about it makes me want to hit myself in the head with a rock. Ouch.</STRONG>

Well, I fnd the idea of anybody, male, female, vampire, human or demon, being interested in Xander to be pretty much incomprehensible. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But personally, I don't "want to hit myself on the head with a rock". Hit Xander on the head with a rock? Now that's a different story. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Andalusia · 04-25-2004, 11:41 AM

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] School hard... One of the best ever... I miss the good old days.

**Jaime Bee** · 04-25-2004, 11:05 PM

Giles also said that Spike was "barely 200" in this episode, which was contradicted in S5. I think you're on the right track, though. Spike also called Angelus his "Yoda", and we saw in AtS this year that Angelus was definitely the one who taught William the ropes after Drusilla turned him.

Well I can forgive the writer's for that cause I don't think the Watcher's Diaries were very accurate about everything.

I don't think Spike had warm fuzzies for Buffy but I do think he was sexually attracted to her from the beginning. lol

He was completely in love with Drusilla and devoted to her in season 2. But she only wanted her Daddy. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Ragnarok · 04-27-2004, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaime Bee:
Well I can forgive the writer's for that cause I don't think the Watcher's Diaries were very accurate about everything.

I think they originally planned to kill Spike off in
What's My Line, Part 2, so they didn't worry too much about his back story. Once he became a more important character, they changed a few things around and hoped we wouldn't notice. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

**Jaime Bee** · 04-09-2007, 02:44 PM

wilywiccan · 04-12-2007, 10:35 PM

I love the scene where Xander is going through Buffy's purse to find a stake and he pulls out eye liner and a tampon.

"fe, fi, fo, fum, I smell the blood of a nice ripe girl" Spike smelling that Buffy was on her period was both gross and kind of kinky. Not that gross since he IS a vampire and likes blood. She probably enjoyed it in season six. When I first watched that ep though, it made me think of Angel always knowing when its that time of the month and how embarassing it would be for Buffy if she knew he knew.

I love that Buffy didn't know that you are supposed to put sugar in lemonade. "sugar?" "it tastes really well" Willow's face when Buffy offers her mom some lemonade is funny.

I couldn't believe that both Buffy and Spike put down their weapons. I think that's when I first saw the possibilities.

Angel couldn't tell them about Spike unless he started dishing about his past as Angelus. He was not about to do that.

**Jaime Bee** · 04-13-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilywiccan (View Post)

I love the scene where Xander is going through Buffy's purse to find a stake and he pulls out eye liner and a tampon.

"fe, fi, fo, fum, I smell the blood of a nice ripe girl" Spike smelling that Buffy was on her period was both gross and kind of kinky. Not that gross since he IS a vampire and likes blood. She probably enjoyed it in season six. When I first watched that ep though, it made me think of Angel always knowing when its that time of the month and how embarassing it would be for Buffy if she knew he knew.

I love that Buffy didn't know that you are supposed to put sugar in lemonade. "sugar?" "it tastes really well" Willow's face when Buffy offers her mom some lemonade is funny.

I couldn't believe that both Buffy and Spike put down their weapons. I think that's when I first saw the possibilities.

Angel couldn't tell them about Spike unless he started dishing about his past as Angelus. He was not about to do that.

Oh yeah she has her period!

That means Spike could always tell when she was aroused!

saturn5 · 10-15-2009, 01:39 PM

School Hard;

A whole new era begins as Spike and Dru explode onto the scene!

The Good;
Pretty much everything. Spike and Dru spark right from the beginning, you get their swagger mixed with their very real affection for one another. Julia Landua did her 'Look at all the people' line once for me and it chilled me to the bone. I often think the secret of a successful show is to make the villains as interesting as the heroes and here Buffy does it in spades. Also a great ep if your a fan of the the Joyce/Buffy relationship (and face it, who isn't?)

The Bad;
Not much!

Best line;
Xander; Does anyone remember when Saturday night was date night?
Cordy; You sure don't!

Observations and questions;
First meeting between Cordy and Joyce, Cordy seeming to be appreciative of Joyce's milfiness, as Snyder comments, a mother/daughter resemblance (certainly when she hit's Spike with the axe). First hints that Snyder and the SDPD are aware of the truth about Sunnydale. For the record, no one died at Woodstock but Spike didn't say he killed anyone, just fed off them (and he lies a LOT). The very subtle handbag joke. Ironically whilst Spike later teases the Trio for their nerdiness he refers to Angel as 'My yoda'. Angel's 'Anne Rice routine' is so convincing you almost buy it for a second. Listening to Spike mocking the 'I'm so tortured' brigade you can't help think of 'Twilight' and laugh. Spike's fascination with Buffy could almost be there from the beginning, check out the way he looks at her in the Bronze. The first Spike/Joyce scene which are something to look forward to in the seasons ahead. It almost goes unnoticed amongst all the excitment but this is the first time Cordy is a full official Scooby, she's in the library making stakes with everyone else without any form of back story, she's simply an accepted part of the gang. The crucifixion is mentioned, confirming Giles' assertion that demons and vampires predate christianity but also confirming it as historical fact.
Interestingly at the end of this ep Cordy and Willow end up in the closet together. Will's out, how about Cordy?
Utterly fabulous 10/10