Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Episode Discussion: 2x03 School Hard - Page 2

***Scythe*** · 04-22-2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:


Yes, I agree. I thought it was a great touch.

I don't think Spike was "attracted" to her at all in S2. I do think he started to become obsessed with her in this ep, but only in an "I have got to kill this girl" kind of way.

There's not much doubt that they both enjoyed fighting each other - we saw that especially in What's My Line, Part 2

James said that he has always played Spike with an attraction to Buffy though.

.*.~.Laura.~.*. · 04-22-2004, 11:15 AM

One of My Fave Episodes Basically Cause Itrs the first time Spike came in [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]..lol I love comparing the First Time Buffy evers Sees Spike in This Epidoe to the Last time in Chosen totlly different [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Ragnarok · 04-22-2004, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sum1:
In a season 5 flashback, we see Dru telling him she knew (psychically) that he "loved the slayer" already back when they were originally in Sunnydale.

Not so. Drusilla did say that the Slayer was "all around him", and that he was "covered in her", but she never said that he loved her. Spike was all about Drusilla in S2; all the proof you need is in Becoming, Part 2 when Spike sees Angelus about to kill Buffy and just blows it off and keeps going with Dru.

Quote:

Originally posted by Scythe:
James said that he has always played Spike with an attraction to Buffy though.

I'm sure he did. Spike is an obsessive personality, and what came across to me in S2 was a strong desire to kill Buffy, not steal her from Angel. I didn't say he didn't "like" her, but that it took the form of appreciation for a skilled enemy that he was planning to enjoy killing.

Great job as usual with the screencaps, Jen.! [img]smilies/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bronson:
How do you rate Buffy and Spike's first fight?

I was a little disappointed. It wasn't a terrible fight, but I'd expected something a little more memorable after all the buildup. Give credit where credit is due, though - Spike did beat her, and if not for Joyce's intervention she'd have been one dead (again) slayer.

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited Ragnarok ]

sum1 · 04-22-2004, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Not so. Drusilla did say that the Slayer was "all around him", and that he was "covered in her", but she never said that he loved her. Spike was all about Drusilla in S2; all the proof you need is in Becoming, Part 2 when Spike sees Angelus about to kill Buffy and just blows it off and keeps going with Dru.

Dru said "I knew you loved the Slayer".

Ragnarok · 04-22-2004, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sum1:
Dru said "I knew you loved the Slayer".

I really don't think so. I'll rewatch Fool For Love tonight to make sure I didn't miss something, but here's a transcript of the relevant scene:

Spanish style tavern at night (1998)

Drusilla and Spike are arguing.
Drusilla: Why can't you kill her?
Spike: You're the one who keeps bringing her up!

South America, 1998

Spike: I haven't said a word about the bloody Slayer since we left California. She's on the other side of the planet, Dru!
Drusilla: But you're lying! I can still see her floating all around you, laughing. Why? Why won't you push her away?
Spike: But I did, pet. I did it for you. You keep punishing me. Carrying on with creatures like this.

Pull back to reveal a Chaos demon standing nearby, holding a beer. He's tall with antlers that drip and ooze.

Chaos demon: Okay, you guys obviously have a thing going on here.
Drusilla: I have to find my pleasures, Spike. You taste like ashes.
Spike: (re: demon)So this is my fault now?
Chaos demon: (to Spike)I didn't know she was seeing somebody. (off Spike's look) I should take off.
Spike: Yeah, why don't you do that?
The demon blows a kiss to Drusilla, then walks off.
Drusilla: You can't blame the ghoul, Spike. You're all covered with her. I look at you... all I see is the Slayer.

The transcript might be wrong, but that's what I have to go on for now. Honestly, I always took that scene to mean Spike had definitely developed an obsession with Buffy, but not of the romantic kind. Drusilla felt threatened by that. I know B/S shippers read the scene differently, and hey, that's fine too.

***Scythe*** · 04-22-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sum1:
Dru said "I knew you loved the Slayer".

That sounds familiar...Wow! Something I don't know!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] What is the world coming to?

T O B Y · 04-22-2004, 02:39 PM

For clarification, the point I was trying to make was just that his infatuation with her was there, not necessarily any sort of love. Just that from the minute he saw her, in his sick mind at that time, he instantly became obsessed with her. And given Dru's line and what we know about Spike's penchant for killing Slayers, it makes sense.

Ragnarok · 04-22-2004, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by T O B Y:
For clarification, the point I was trying to make was just that his infatuation with her was there, not necessarily any sort of love. Just that from the minute he saw her, in his sick mind at that time, he instantly became obsessed with her. And given Dru's line and what we know about Spike's penchant for killing Slayers, it makes sense.

Sick? Not so much, I think. After all, wanting to kill one another is the definition of a healthy Slayer/Vampire relationship. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

**Fortyseven** · 04-22-2004, 04:07 PM

There was also a major goof in this episode... Spike calls Angel his "sire" but later we find out that Drusilla sired Spike, not Angel. [img]smilies/goof.gif[/img] I wonder why they changed it. [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

T O B Y · 04-22-2004, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:


Sick? Not so much, I think. After all, wanting to kill one another is the definition of a healthy Slayer/Vampire relationship. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

True. I guess I meant from a un-serial killing point of view.

**ROCKSTAR** · 04-22-2004, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scythe:


That sounds familiar...Wow! Something I don't know!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] What is the world coming to?

That's a quote from "Crush"

Dru: But its so funny, I knew you loved the Slayer

**Jaime Bee** · 04-23-2004, 03:18 AM

Hey Guys!

I love this episode! It is also interesting looking back now you can see the subtext and chemistry between Spike and Buffy from their first fight. James said that he knew to stay on the show he had to either be fighting or kissing Buffy. So he always played a sexual vibe in their scenes. Smart guy! lol

I think back then Spike would have totally shagged Buffy before he killed her. lol

I love the contrast between Spike the master vampire and Spike the boyfriend. My favorite part is when he burns up the annoited one. lol

I don't know why they changed the sire thing but I tend to think that Dru was too crazy to really be a sire So Angelus of course taught him everything. This episode was certainly a huge mild stone in the show. If any other actor had portrayed Spike we certainly wouldn't have seen the character after Season 2. Who ever casted JM was a Genius. lol

Spike said in Lover's Walk that it was all The slayer's fault that Dru left him and then in Fool For Love that is reinforced. Dru could see that he had feelings for Buffy way back in the end of Season 2 and in Crush admits she knew he loved the slayer before Spike knew. Just look at Season 4 when Spike is with Harmony; it is totally just because she reminds him of Buffy and that is also reinforced in Season 5 when Spike has her pretend to be Buffy in bed. I am sure Something Blue only helped make his feelings stronger and also after that episode Spike and Buffy seem to avoid each other the rest of the season. That is also when Buffy jumped into a relationship with Riley. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

***Lethe's Bramble*** · 04-23-2004, 04:06 AM

[img]smilies/slinkie.gif[/img] one of my favorite eps!!!!! Woo! Spike!!!! [img]smilies/drool.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wiggle.gif[/img]

I loved the music in the episode and the way Spike looks at Buffy while she's dancing in the Bronze and how he says "go get dinner" to the vampire and that he couldn't wait till Saturday. [img]smilies/sigh.gif[/img]

Ok yes that ep totally made me fall in love with Spike and Dru!

progirl · 04-23-2004, 06:14 AM

Quoted form Luxie:

<This was the Spike that I loved, not the poncy twit that was Buffy-whipped.>

Evil Spike was an intresting character but he never would have made it through 4 seasons as a regular if he would have stayed a black hat.

Personaly I found his growth from monster to man a wonderful journey. I liked Spike the monster, but fell "in love" with Spike the man. Just like Buffy. Giggle, giggle. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Anna

Night Nymph · 04-23-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:

The transcript might be wrong, but that's what I have to go on for now. Honestly, I always took that scene to mean Spike had definitely developed an obsession with Buffy, but not of the romantic kind. Drusilla felt threatened by that. I know B/S shippers read the scene differently, and hey, that's fine too.

Nope, I agreed with you, Ragnarok, on that one. I didn't think Drusilla was referring necessarily to love for Buffy there either - though interestingly in the shooting script (now no longer available from where I originally read it - rats!) there was originally more to this scene, including a line or two about Drusilla's carrying on with Angelus in front of Spike (making it very clear she "shagged" him - Spike's phrasing - for Spike to see/hear) that may have changed the tone of the exchange. (i.e. meaning that Drusilla might've shagged Angelus, because she already had suspicions about or jealousy concerning Buffy - damn I wish I knew where to get a hold of shooting scripts vs transcripts again - someone please PM me if you know).

My slight confusion came with the line sum1 mentioned "I knew you loved the Slayer" from Crush which if I remember correctly was followed by "Even before you did" which makes it even more interesting. Drusilla didn't say "I knew you were going to love the Slayer" which would've made her comments in Fool For Love definitely a reference to the future - i.e. her ability to predict what would happen later. The use of "loved" made it ambiguous. I suppose one could argue that Drusilla's non-grasp of reality makes such holding to proper tense understandable - but the qualifier "before you did" makes me wonder when that was. It couldn't have been in Crush, (because Spike already knew he loved Buffy), so it could only have meant either the last time they saw each other (in South America) or that she'd had a vision of it previously - that last one being possible, but too bad she didn't clarify it with "I saw it in my head" rather than "the Pixie's wispered it to me." So this exchange then left the Fool For Love dialogue more open for interpretation, but yeah, I wish I knew too, one of those mysteries we may never know.

As for the dance scene in School Hard - I saw definite "attraction" there, but not of the "good" variety, more that Spike found Buffy very "biteable." Drusilla's "before you did" did imply Spike was unaware of his pending feelings for Buffy, so definitely at this point Spike had no idea he was going to love her.

An interesting aside - I wish I could give credit here - someone somewhere on the net brought up a very ineteresting point by asking the question about what Buffy might've thought or what might've happened had Buffy and Spike's famous exchange...

Buffy: "What happens on Saturday?"
Spike: "Saturday I kill you."

Had instead ended "Saturday I shag you." Heh heh. (Other than Drusilla staking Spike in his sleep that is.)