FuriosityShell

Yeah, I know he didn't mean anything by it, that's why I noted DB's hurt delivery and the script mentioning Angel being hurt along with his "age of chivalry" (to quote Cordy) personality and upbringing.

Spike didn't make Angel act childish. Angel acted childish of his own accord. I disagree with your view about "Destiny" being useless. It was far from useless. "Destiny" showed that most of Angel's resentment towards Spike was because HE was the one who made Spike a monster, and Spike is the person who knows him best (besides Cordy, that is). Angel tries to deceive himself, but Spike knows better and forces Angel to acknowledge the truth about himself, and Spike is a walking reminder that Angel can't ever be redeemed. At least in Angel's view. I know you think Angel can be redeemed and you're not wrong in that respect as the show leaves that possibly a little open, but for the most part the show and Angel himself believes that he can't. Cordy and Spike are the two people who know Angel best (Wesley's probably third), but they represent opposite sides. Cordy has insight into Angel's good traits, his champion persona and she sees the good in him, and has him acknowledge it, which is a nice boost to his ego, and perhaps the main reason Angel fell in love with her. Angel wants to be human, and Cordy makes him feel that way. However, Spike has insight into Angel's darker side, and forces him to acknowledge it which Angel doesn't like. While Angel and Spike's dynamic does veer on childish (a little too childish) at times, I enjoy it and got quite a lot out of it, though I still would trade Spike for Cordy any day.

I mentioned a while ago that in a version of S5 that I would have liked to have seen, Cordy and Spike would have teamed up for a few episodes. And like I said Cordy and Spike represent two sides of Angel. Cordy is his light side, and Spike his dark side. It would have been interesting to see Angel's two sides interact a little more, and for Cordy and Spike to discuss their opposing views of Angel would have been nice to see. Spike seems to take on Cordy's role in both shows as truth-teller. He was brought in as a regular in BtVS S4 to replace Cordelia as the Scoobies' source of conflict and truth-teller. And he replaced Cordy in AtS S5 as Angel's sidekick and truth teller. James Marsters has made a great career for himself replacing Charisma Carpenter.

Charisma really is a doll.

I really wish we had gotten more perspective on Cordy's feelings for Angel. In S3, it's extremely obvious that Angel is falling in love with her. But, in Cordy's case, there's no outright indication that Cordy thinks of Angel as more than just her best friend, but all of a sudden in "Tomorrow", she discovers that she's in love with him even though she's shown no outright indication of her previous thinking of him as more than just a friend, although there's PLENTY of subtext and I still believe she's in love with him nevertheless but I wish we had gotten more of her POV.

Ashes Fall

I never said 'Destiny' was useless, I used it as an example of how Spike brought out irritatingly childish behavior in Angel and yeah it was Spike that did it. Angel never acted like that prior to his entrance especially with Cordy there to verbally spank him if he tried.
(For some reason that is making me imagine her literally spanking him which is both hilarious AND hot! )

I remember you putting your desire for Cordy to have joined Spike's fight since he was doing the champion thing out there and stated my disagreement with that arrangement being plausible. She's far too intelligent to just trust anyone whose following PTB visions and she hardly knew Spike. I also expressed, that I'd, however, have loved her to be there to mediate Angel's childish rivalry with him.

Good point about there being more POV of Angel's growing love for Cordy than of her growing love for him. I'd have liked to see that developed more as well. We see her love for him so few times and they are not as solid as Angel's fantasy in 'Awakening', any Bangel lover could argue them.
- The kiss in 'Birthday' (though I don't believe you'll agree, I count it because it was the real Cordy which you do concede to even if it shouldn't have been)
- The comment that Angel is her priority in 'The Price'
- Pretty much her entire role in 'You're Welcome' let alone the moment where she almost straight out tells him she was in love with him.
"That's the man I fel--that um--that I knew."

FuriosityShell

Angel acted childish of his own accord. Spike did not make him. You're making it sound like Spike held Angel down with a stake to his chest and forced him to act childish. Angel acted childish because Angel is childish. He acted childish with Buffy in "Some Assembly Required" when he was jealous of Xander, he acted childish with Buffy in "Chosen" when he was jealous of Spike, he acted childish with Cordy at times ("I'm not fat!"). That's just how he is. He can be childish at times. That's a flaw of Angel's, not a flaw of Spike's.

She hardly knew Angel when she started to work with him and had expressed fear/dislike of Angel many times prior, so why wouldn't she work with Spike? I was actually thinking Spike and Cordy could have worked off of HER visions, meaning the Lindsey coming back arc would have gone down much differently, or Lindsey wouldn't have come back at all, in my view. Plots in my fanon S5 would have some differences that the canon S5. Of course, I wouldn't have Cordy wake up from her coma, see Angel at Wolfram & Hart, and immediately say, "Well, I'll work with Spike instead." It would be a few episodes before that happened. There would be conflict between her and Angel. It would also help further Angel's arc. Angel's storyline in S5 is one of my favorites. It's about him being disconnected. And he can't be disconnected if Cordy is around and his relationship with her is fully intact. There needs to be conflict to keep things interesting. Angel's insecurity towards Spike would be compounded by the fact that he felt he had lost another woman he loved to Spike (not in a romantic sense though, there would no romance between Cordy and Spike or triangle involving Angel/Cordy/Spike). Spike and Cordy would clash of course over their views of Angel. Cordy would be working with Spike, but she'd still express her belief in Angel. Angel and Cordy would of course come back together again by "A Hole in the World" and they would join together when Fred is in danger. Plus, Cordy is a character who deserves much more than just being Angel's cheerleader. One of the things I loved about BtVS is how it was full of strong women who were interesting characters and had arcs and storylines of their own. This is one of my problems with later seasons of AtS, where Cordy and Fred (the only two women) on the show felt stuck being just the love interests.

I didn't say the Cordy who kissed Angel in "Birthday" was the real Cordy. I said she ACTED like the real Cordy. The fact it wasn't the real Cordy was my main complaint. Though I also don't like the fact that Cordy became half-demon for Angel. Yeah, it is nice to start a list of moments where Cordy proved her love for Angel.

Notice in "Carpe Noctem" where she basically nags Angel throughout the episode to shut down Fred's crush on him. In the same episode, she lists his pros and cons when describing why Fred would have a crush on him, which implies that she has considered him as a romantic interest.

Ashes Fall

No, I'm not implying that Spike forced childish behavior on Angel but that his attitude towards him brought it out in him.
Everything you named pales in comparison to the level of childish he was around Spike in ATS season 5. BTW, I never even counted BTVS because he'd evolved a lot from that character.
I'll admit though that his MOST childish episode is 'The Girl in Question'.

I believe it makes something of a difference that no matter how little, she partially had known Angel as a good guy when she'd started to work for him and she'd been attracted to him whereas her entire history with Spike was with him as a villain.

However, the scenario you presented here I'll concede is plausible. I actually quite like the element of Angel having another dark phase in the form of a deep resentment towards Spike for "stealing another woman he loves".
The prospect that she could have been the one to have the impact on Spike that Fred did just as she'd had an impact on Angel is an intriguing one.

I still see one issue with the concept, though.

Cordy didn't just walk out on Angel in 'You're Welcome' when she saw him in an undesirable place, she got him back on track. I believe the only reason it didn't stick was because she wasn't able to stay to be the adhesive that made it. If she'd stayed I don't feel Angel would have given her a reason to switch loyalties. She's Cordelia Chase, she wouldn't have let him give her a reason.

My apologies for misunderstanding, but I disagree that it wasn't the real Cordy in 'Birthdayverse' unless you and I have different definitions of 'real Cordy', mine is that it's the Cordy from the real timeline, the one that was lying in Angel's bed dying just without her memory of being that person.
The issue with that is something you'd brought to my attention, that 'Birthdayverse' Cordy should have been seasons 1 and kinda 2 Diva Cordy but I still stand by that being detrimental to Skip's agenda.
Cordy becoming half demon made sense though because it kept her 'vision girl' character in tact and showcased not only her love for Angel but her self-discovery of her true identity.
Though I argue that it was half-demon that she'd become. I'd say judging by her light show in 'The Price' and the higher being scam in 'Tomorrow', that she was half-Angel/higher being.

That's right I'd forgotten about that and that also reminded me of 'Fredless' when Angel says that Fred has a soothing presence and Cordy get's pretty outwardly jealous.

FuriosityShell

But of course in "You're Welcome" Cordelia knew she only had a day with Angel before she left. So since she had such limited time, she was going to do everything in her power to get Angel back on track. Whereas Cordy in my fanon S5 wakes up from the coma without a time limit, so I believe she would call Angel out on things she wouldn't have called him out on if she had a time limit. For example, her reaction to Connor in "You're Welcome": "You let them rape the memories of your friends who trust you". As someone who has a HUGE problem with what Angel did in erasing Connor's memory, it was nice to see Cordy call him out on this but it would have been even nicer to see Cordy take a huge stand against this. But again, she had a limited time on earth and she needed to dedicate all of her energy to getting Angel back on track. However, Cordy in my fanon S5 would have fully called Angel out on this. There's also the matter of I think Cordy would have been uncomfortable around Angel and her friends, thinking that they only thought of her of Jasmine (which of course they would never do, but Cordy might think they would) and be unable to face them after what she had been forced to do to them the previous year. That would have contributed to her working with Spike instead of at Wolfram & Hart. It also would have been interesting for Cordy and Spike to form their own bond. I could see them bonding over their relationships with Angel and Buffy, and their feelings of inferiority towards Buffy and Angel, respectively.

When I refer to Birthdayverse Cordy, I'm talking about the Cordy who became a famous actress and never had the visions or the friendship with Angel or anything. When I refer to Real Cordy, I'm talking about the Cordy we knew and love who did have the visions, helped the helpless and was slowly falling in love with Angel. We see throughout the shows that Real Cordy's experiences with the visions, and Angel Investigations, and helping people is what made her into a better, more compassionate individual, but Birthdayverse Cordy is kind and compassionate and really wants to help people even though she hasn't had the same experiences Cordy had. Birthdayverse Cordy should have been even worse than Sunnydale Cordy actually as I think having everything she ever wanted (fame, fortune, successful acting career) would have gone to her head. Not to mention, the kiss with Angel makes NO sense. Birthdayverse Cordy hadn't seen Angel in years since Sunnydale, and was never close with him, so why would she care so much that he was insane? Why would she kiss him? It isn't until AFTER Birthdayverse Cordy kisses Angel that all the memories come flooding in and she becomes Real Cordy again, with the memories of the experiences we saw her have throughout AtS S1-S3.

Cordelia becoming half-demon upsets me, because while it makes sense for her to do that considering Spike was tricking her into it, is because she's giving up her humanity for Angel when what makes her so important to Angel is her humanity. "She's got a humanizing influence", to quote Doyle. Not to mention, in BtVS S7 "Get It Done", Buffy is offered the same deal to become more demon in order to help win the fight against the First. Buffy rejects it, and the show portrays her as having made the right decision. And she did, considering she brought down the First anyway. Whereas Cordy taking the demon implant helped condemn her tragic fate.

I do love that moment. One might argue some of Cordy's annoyance with Fred comes from jealousy towards Fred's crush on Angel and his obvious flattery by it.

After re-watching "Waiting in the Wings" a few days ago, I did notice some parallels between the Ballerina and Cordy with the Count paralleling Angel and the love interest Stefan paralleling Groo. The Ballerina's passion is her ballet same as Cordy's passion is her visions. The Ballerina's passion of ballet is really her downfall as she's stuck on stage forever, and the Cordelia's passion of visions is her downfall as it leads to her death. The Ballerina's relationship with Stefan is a release as she finally gets a break. Cordy's relationship with Groo is a release as she finally lets go of her sexual tension. While Stefan is the Ballerina's love, Groo isn't Cordy's love so much as her sense of normalcy (having sex, a risk-free relationship). But both the Ballerina and Cordy lose those things and end up with bad endings due to devoting themselves to their passion (dancing and the visions).

Perhaps Angel recognized the parallels between the three of them because at the end of "Couplet", he lets Cordy go and bed with the Groo, letting his love go be free instead of being stuck in time, therefore ensuring that she won't be like the ballerina and he won't be like the Count.

While my heart always hurts for Angel at the end of "Couplet", I am really happy for Cordy that she finally got to have good sex, because her only other (known) sexual encounters throughout the show were Wilson, who tried to rape her, and Connor, which was also a rape, though not by Connor. So even though she and the Groosalugg weren't true love, he did care about her, so I'm glad she got to have sex with at least one guy who cared about her.

Ashes Fall

I'll concede that your point is valid concerning her regard of Angel in 'You're Welcome' being based on it being her last day on earth.

Personally, I believe that had she returned to stay she would have harbored quite a bit of resentment towards Angel for 'Habeas Corpses', for having the gall to believe the worst of her.
Even in the canon 'You're Welcome', I feel he should have tried to apologize for that, he needed to take responsibility for wronging her which at the same time would showcase that he'd taken the reality check he'd gotten after he came out of his season 2 dark phase to heart. He should have known that she'd have appreciated that.


The way I understand it is that because she didn't actually experience the birthdayverse life before the moment she was placed in it, neuroplasticity, the adaption of the brain in response to the recognition of new experiences and sensory sensations could not occur.
Therefore her synapses, more simply put her 'state of mind' or her impulses still applied to her life with Angel.

Or perhaps neuroplasticity was mystically made to occur but because only the most frequently accessed and stronger synapses are retained and strengthened while the weaker are eliminated which is a constant process called 'pruning', those from the birthdayverse life would have been the weaker of them having been artificial and thus would have been the ones eliminated.

Sorry if this is complicated sounding. Here is one of few websites that explains it in simple English.
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/plast.html

A more simple way to word this is that her memories of her life with Angel were not erased by rather overwritten and the overwrite simply was not strong enough to stick, a crap job if you will.

This would also account for how she was still drawn to Cynthia York, a girl she only had knowledge of in her life with Angel, from a vision.

Cordelia was in a significantly different situation than Buffy. Taking the demon implant was the right choice for her because it was her life with the visions that she identified with not the actress life.
Buffy had a lot more freedom, she didn't require the demon implant to follow her heart and be the person she wanted to be without landing on her back as a vegetable.

I've noticed the parallel as well, but in a slightly different way. The Prima Ballerina/Stefan relationship to me represented the struggle Angel and Cordy had with their feelings for each other.

"Help me, help me be not afraid" defined Cordy's subconscious insecurities. She was afraid to be with Angel romantically because of the curse and in my own head cannon because she wasn't confident in his ability to truly love her as he did Buffy. It's for this reason that she zapped him with the cross the first time they kissed, was worried about something being "removed or inserted" and relieved when the sexual actions were interrupted.

"His power is unnatural, he could..."
"What? Kill us?"

Could reference Angelus if they had sex and it resulted in Angel's soul being taken. Cordy might be afraid that she could become something she couldn't live with if she had to face Angelus just as the Ballerina feared she couldn't be the person she wanted to be with Stefan and that Angelus could ultimately tear them apart as he did Angel and Buffy.
I believe what she fears most is life without Angel because of what he gave her, purpose and substance, that without him in her life she'd end up back at the rock bottom he picked her up from.

Not necessarily, he's always recognized that he's, quite literally, not boyfriend material, that he's not meant to have love. He also straight up admits to Lorne that he feels unworthy of Cordy at the beginning of WITW when he asks:
"What do I have to offer her?"
His feelings for her have always been selfless and we've already seen by this point that he'll put her first at his own expense.

I will say, however that he did seem to see a parallel between himself and the Prima Ballerina when she tells him that she regretted her decision NOT taking a chance with Stephan. His attempt to confess his feelings for Cordy in the final scene was as though he didn't want to make the same mistake and live with that regret.
Judging by this, the Lorne conversation AND the title of the episode, the whole episode seemed to be themed around that.

FuriosityShell

Sorry for taking so long to reply but my internet is down for a while and I hate using my phone for discussion but here goes.

I actually don't blame Angel for thinking it was Cordy sleeping with Connor. My problem is that no one really asks her why she would do it as if that was normal behavior or something. While Cordy sleeping with him is wrong, I would take into account that Cordy had been kicked out of the higher plane, lost her memory and didn't know who she was, and had been having terrible visions and nightmares of something evil. That must have been traumatizing, not unlike Buffy's resurrection. And while I wouldn't have been any less or hurt by it, I would have taken that into consideration. In the end, I think Wesley had the best attitude as he acknowledged that both Cordy and Connor were both feeling very lost in a strange world and things happen. But then again, it wasn't really Cordelia so the whole thing is moot anyway. I would have liked to see her interact with Connor in S5. I hated how everyone (on the show and in the fandom) always seem to act like he was in the wrong for his relationship with her. Connor was a baby and had no memories of the few weeks tops that Cordy changed his diapers. So I don't find his attraction to her in S4 creepy or incestuous at all. If anything, it's creepy on Cordy's end as she knew and loved him as a baby, so Fred and Gunn should have called her out on it and looked at her funny instead of Connor. Even Angelis rips Connor to shreds over his attraction to her when it would have been perfect ammo to use against her.

Regarding the Buffyverse: are you basically saying it was similar to Dawn being inserted into everyone's memories? Like Birthdayverse Cordy acting like Real Cordy was similar to S5-S7 Buffy acting like S1-S4 Buffy even though S5-S7 Buffy grew up with a little sister that she must have had to take care of. Huh, that theory is actually pretty great.

But the Birthdayverse is still problematic for me. Let's compare it to another alternate reality brought on by Cordelia: The Wishverse. In the Wishverse, I get a real idea of what Cordy's life must have been like there. But I don't know a single thing about Birthdayverse Cordy besides she's a famous actress. Does Cordy have friends in the Birthdayverse? What is her life like outside of stardom? The Birthdayverse doesn't seem to have a huge effect on the characters like the Wishverse. Angel's insane, that's pretty much it. Wesley lost an arm and Gunn has a scar, but their lives and personalities are still pretty much the same. Compare that to the Wishverse where Buffy is practically Faith, Giles is utterly miserable, and Willow and Xander are monstrous vampires. Hell, even Harmony, while still pretty vapid, is more mature and has been forced to grow up more in the Wishverse. Not to mention, LA seemed to be getting along pretty fine in the Birthdayverse even though Angel is too crazy to do good. Whereas Sunnydale in the Wishverse was overrun by monsters without Buffy. "Birthday" is just a really flat episode to me. And I'm not trying to hate because I want to like it, but it's just so full of plot holes that have to be fanwanked away, it takes on a completely different light when you've seen the Jasmine storyline, and it just feels so full of missed opportunities.

I really like your interpretation of the Ballerina/Count/Stefan in comparison to Angel/Cordy. While I still stand by my interpretation yours is good too and I love how there are multiple ways to interpret it. I also noticed another parallel involving Angel/Cordy/Groo to Angel/Buffy/Riley. Upon first meeting Riley/Groo, Angel wants to fight him but it's broken up by Buffy/Cordy. Buffy/Cordy is in a safe relationship that she's only in because she's been hurt by Angel/afraid of getting hurt by Angel. Buffy/Cordy finally are confronted with the fact that she doesn't really love Riley/Groo, and it's just a relationship of convenience and he leaves.

Ashes Fall

Don't worry. I've been a bit busy myself and I don't blame you, I as well hate to compose forum posts via phone. I did that once here myself on the way home from a camping trip because I'd had serious withdrawl hehe, and it was quite irritating.

The assessment that Cordy was "kicked out" of the higher plane isn't accurate if my memory is correct because I believe she wanted out because she was bored. Ergo in spite of her being physically forced out, her soul presumably consented.
You are also forgetting that "Cordy" had been remedied of her amnesia prior to sleeping with Connor which she makes the team aware of even though it was Jasmine that had come out of it.
In that regard, Angel was in the right to assume "Cordy" knew exactly what she was doing and thus was an idiot not to see it as a giant neon red flag that it wasn't her!

As for the rest of the team's indifferent reactions being towards Connor as opposed to Cordy, there are several factors that from their standpoint make it plausible that Connor had forced her/taken advantage of her.
1.) They knew Cordy and that she was the poster girl for morality, she was Angel's role model, whereas Connor was a stranger to them. They'd only known him for what, a few weeks, as this actual person with thoughts and independent capabilities as opposed to spending three months with him as an infant.
2.) As you pointed out Cordy was vulnerable. Although she'd regained her memory she'd still been through a trauma that was fresh in her psyche and needed processing.
3.) Connor had maliciously aided in throwing Angel into the bottom of the ocean which suggests that he's capable of targeting Angel's allies and/or those who try to slander Holtz. At any rate, he attacked their friend which was a major challenge of their trust.
That act, because it was timed exactly when Angel and Cordy were planning to declare their feelings for each other thus presumably were going to get together, could also come across as Connor's having plotted to get at Cordy.

For clarification: these are possible assessments that could've been made by the team based on the circumstances of their perspective, it's not my perspective! I'm not supporting that Connor actually did take advantage of Cordy.


Yes, Cordy's birthdayverse memory can be compared to the Dawn memories except I believe the birthdayverse memories to be even more unstable because the Dawn memories had also included an instinctual and sensory recognition of her which held even when the memories unraveled.

You seem to be forgetting that the Birthdayverse was an elaborate stage that wasn't exactly meant to be believable on Cordy's part so wouldn't have been made to be for the viewer and I don't believe there was much to know of it's story.
Assuming she wouldn't have matured from her diva personality without being inspired by Angel and the visions, I doubt she'd have friends but a posse and admirers like she had at Sunnydale high. It was probably just a standard rise to the A-list peppered with a handful of flings. It wasn't until she saw a contrast between a rich, successful man and strong fighter when Doyle saved her life that she realize what she really wanted in a man so presumably she wouldn't have had that realization alternately.

In regards to the contrast between LA without Cordy and Angel and Sunnydale without Buffy don't forget that Sunnydale was sitting on a hellmouth and that the wishverse had to include the consequences of a significant supernatural event having successfully occurred in Buffy's absence, the harvest.
LA's first major threat was the beastmaster crap when Jasmine descended to earth.

I've actually noticed a few inconsistencies in the Wishverse as well though because it's been a while I can only recall one.
Angel had ended up in Sunnydale because he'd followed Buffy so how did he end up there to be captured by the Master in her absence? Plus it's suggested that he knew who she was to him in the real world as just before he's dusted he calls out to her seemingly like he was trying to will her to recognize him. WTF?
Ahem, sorry off topic.

I like your comparison of Angel/Cordy/Groo and Angel/Buffy/Riley though I don't consider them exact parallels because Angel wasn't a member of a triangle with Buffy and Riley and Buffy did actually have feelings for Riley. She did go after him when she knew she was about to lose him just too late. He was the one who had issues. I do believe she still had lingering feelings for Angel at this point but Riley was seeing that has having a lot more substance than it did. She never suggested that she wasn't fully committed to him.
What I find interesting is how Groo and Riley departed on kind of opposite grounds. While Groo had told Cordy that she needed to be with the man she really loved ('you love Angel, you need to go get him'), Riley tested Buffy's love for him ('if you really love me come get me before I leave').

You know, Riley would have made an interesting big bad for an arc in ATS in which he gets in the way of the team's demon fighting with the Initiative's agenda and out of resentment towards Angel and then graduating to capturing Cordy when he finds out that she's half demon. There are intriguing possibilities for how he'd use the realization that Angel was in love with Cordy.

FuriosityShell

I'm sure Cordy wanted off the higher plane the second she got there when seeing Angel in danger, but she as still stuck there and we saw for three episodes on the higher plane trying to communicate with Angel and get off the plane. It's never explained how she got off the plane but one can assume it was because of her interfering with Angel at the casino in "The House Always Wins", which broke a major PTB rule.

I'm fully aware the gang knew she had her memory back when she slept with Connor. It still doesn't excuse them looking at Connor (I've already said this before but the way everyone treated Connor was horrible in S4, especially Angel) with suspicion instead of her, and Angel wasn't an idiot for not knowing it was her. I would have believed it was her too and figured it was because of the trauma of what she had been through. It's really the same as Buffy/Spike. It's unlike her and incredibly wrong for Buffy to sleep with a soulless demon, but she was depressed and going through trauma, so it made sense. And I would have factored the same thing with Cordy if it wasn't revealed it wasn't her. But Angel's real wrong in my opinion is not asking Cordy why she did that as if it was normal behavior or something. He was acting like she went off and slept with Groo or something to make him jealous. No, Angel, she slept with your SON, who she loved as a baby and could have been her son if things hadn't gone wrong. Something is clearly going on with her emotionally.

And I'm not forgetting the Birthdayverse was a , which makes the episode even worse. On first viewing it makes no sense. On second viewing it's a giant hoax and by the third viewing it's completely boring due to the fact that nothing makes sense and you know everything is a hoax. I especially compare it to "The Wish" in terms of the emotion it draws from me. Every time I watch "The Wish" it STILL breaks my heart to see Angel staked right in front of Buffy and her showing no emotion when the Buffy we know loves him. It breaks my heart to see Xander attacking Buffy with so much hate in her eyes and her uncaringly staking him as if he were a normal vampire, When the two really love each other. Same with Oz staking Willow and same with the Master killing Buffy AGAIN, this time with no friends there to mourn or bring her back. Whereas in "Birthday", I feel absolutely nothing when Cordy sees that her best friend has gone insane and kisses him to make him better because it's so implausible. And the Angel/Cordelia dynamic is my second favorite dynamic in the Buffyverse (right after Buffy/Giles), so the fact that an emotional moment like this between falls so flat irritates me to no end. "Birthday" had the potential to be one of, if not my very favorite, episodes given that it focuses on my favorite character and one of my favorite character relationships.

Birthdayverse Cordy's life: you could argue that she had another set of Cordettes and a shallow, rich boyfriend. Or you could argue that she had no friends whatsoever and was incredibly lonely off set. But we'll never really know because they don't flesh out Cordy's life in the Birthdayverse at all "she's a famous actress". We spend maybe 5 minutes with Cordy in the Wishverse, but we KNOW what her life would have been like there because we actually see it. I just think that in terms of "Birthday", it was a missed opportunity and Cordy and the Cordy/Angel deserved a better episode devoted to them.

"The Wish" has it's fair share of plot holes that need to be fanwanked away, but it gets so much right, that I don't mind. Joss has always he's willing to excuse plot in face of emotional resonance (The blood thing with Dawn in "The Gift" didn't make much sense to me, but I still. bawl my eyes out every time Buffy leaps off that tower). ALL of the characters are affected by this alternate reality instead of just Angel and it tells us SO many interesting things about the characters, compared to so much of the Birthdayverse just being a hoax. Regarding Angel being in Sunnydale: of course he knew who Buffy was. The Wish changed the fact that she came to Sunnydale but it didn't change the fact that Angel saw Buffy being called and she was what inspired him to get off his ass and fight evil instead of eating rats ("I want to help her. I want to become someone.") Him being in Sunnydale when she wasn't: maybe she was going to Sunnydale, but plans changed and Angel, not knowing plans changed, went there thinking she'd be there. Or maybe Angel went there to help after the Master took over and ended up captured.

Yeah, a difference between Groo and Riley is that even though Buffy did have lingering feelings for Angel (and always would, is the vibe I got from the two of them), it still didn't affect her ability to love someone else and the problem was that she didn't let Riley in as much as she would have Angel. For example, her not crying in front of him when I'm sure she would have in front of Angel. But this problem with Buffy isn't even limited to Riley. We see Buffy more and more guarded with everyone, to the point where it takes a toll on her psyche and she becomes General Buffy, a nickname fans have for her in S7, similar to the Saint Cordelia nickname.

Riley as a big bad on AtS: no. I would not like that idea. Riley isn't that petty and something like would destroy his character and would even be OOC. Riley hated Spike and discovered that Buffy was sleeping with him in S6 but that didn't stop him from cooperating (off-screen) in S7 by helping Buffy get Spike's chip removed.

I noticed some parallels between Cordelia and Riley in that they both wanted to be needed by Angel and Buffy and got upset at the thought of them not needing them. Compare Cordy choosing the Birthdayverse over Angel after hearing Angel (out of context) saying she was just a rich girl from Sunnydale to Riley picking the Initiative over Buffy when Buffy doesn't chase after him (at least he thought). The main difference between Cordy and Riley though is that Cordy is actually what Angel needs, to quote DB.

starryeyesxx

Some old school angst




The Angel Rewatch, Angel Rewatch 2.17 “Disharmony” (1/?)

FuriosityShell

S2 is probably my second favorite season after 5 , and I love "Disharmony". I think after "Epiphany", Angel finally realized how much he valued Cordelia as a friend and how much he valued her in general. While I think she let him off easy at the end of the episode, I don't care because the two of them jumping up and down at the end of the episode is so dawn adorable and makes me laugh every time I watch the show.

Ashes Fall

Sorry still not buying it, that Cordy for any reason would allow herself to sleep with the son of the man she loved.
Buffy and Spike nowhere near resemble this though I agree that Buffy's initial attraction to him was wrong on many levels.
But neither of them was void of boundaries due to having been raised in a hell dimension or manipulated and Buffy loved spike. Loved him enough to choose him as her champion to wear the amulet, enough to defend their relationship to Angel of all people (one might think Angel is the last person she should want to justify it to) and to choose to spend what she knew could've been her last night alive with Spike NOT Angel. Angel may have forced that conversation but she didn't have to respond in Spike's favor. She could have omitted the real relationship and have just said Spike had raped her if she'd wanted to salvage her chance to get back with Angel.

Also, I don't recall if I'd ever said that Angel should have known that Cordy wasn't Cordy, but I know that I have been saying that he should have known that this behavior wasn't that of HIS Cordy, the Cordy that he was in love with. That whatever he would have chosen to blame, something was wrong.
It was irrational and idiotic of him to see it as being about making him jealous when as you said this wasn't Groo this was his son! Even so he'd considered Connor here a rival not unlike Groo and he LET HER sleep with Groo because he was willing to let someone else give her what he couldn't since her happiness and well-being was his priority. From that perspective, as wrong as it was, what was the difference here?

As for everyone treating Connor horribly, some of them had tried to reach out to him at the end of season 3 and what did he do? He tried to stab Cordy and threw Angel into the bottom of the ocean. He wasn't the least bit receptive to their graciousness and when he opened up to Angel he was just keeping his enemy close. So can you really blame them for losing their sympathy? You were the one who'd reminded me how deeply hurt Fred was when she'd learned about Connor being the one who'd tossed Angel in the oean.

Actually, Angel going insane from having no one to grieve Doyle with IS quite plausible given his fragile state when Doyle found him which Wesley had pointed out.
The kiss I won't argue.

What exactly do we see? There was no 'what her life would have been like' in wishverse as there is no scenario in wishverse where she would have survived the harvest.
Though on that thought, I found something some time ago that I found so intriguing; a wiki of a fictional spin-off concept of Wishverse cordy's life in which she's the slayer called, very originally, hehe, Cordelia the Vampire Slayer.
http://buffyfanfiction.wikia.com/wik...Vampire_Slayer
I'd have loved for this to be real! I actually tweeted the link to Charisma but she never responded.

I never argued that he shouldn't have known who she was but that just before he dusted it seemed like he wanted her to recognize him as the real Buffy would.

Everyone seems to believe she let him off easy but I don't. Being spoilt with gifts is how she defined being valued which was the basis of her indifference with Angel. Don't forget that in 'Untouched' she told Bethony that she preferred her guys "more shoppy less broody" or something to that effect. So in Cordyverse it was a guesture that strongly communicated that he valued her and understood how she liked to be shown.

I agree that little bounce was adorable!

FuriosityShell

Buffy didn't love Spike when they were sleeping together in season did though. It's made pretty obvious that she was just using him to get through her depression. In S7 yes I think she loved him, but in S6 when they were actually sleeping together.

Why would Buffy tell Angel that Spike raped a lie. 1) He didn't rape her, he ATTEMPTED to (which is not a justification, just the fact). 2) There was MUCH more to their relationship than that. 3) Spike had a soul now and was essentially a different person from the one who tried to rape her. Bringing up the attempted rape is like bringing Angel's murder of Jenny. She would be lying to Angel and undermining Spike and everything he had done for her in the past year.

I saw Buffy and Angel's reunion in "Chosen" as affirming that they'll always be in love with each other. However their love won't get them back together, nor will it stop them from loving or having relationships with other people. Buffy sending Angel away was a way of saying, "Yes, I love you and I think about the possibility of us back together, but Spike is the one in my life right now." It's the same thing with Angel and Cordy. If Buffy showed up in the middle of "You're Welcome" saying she wanted to get back with Angel, even though he loved Buffy, he wouldn't cast off Cordy. He would probably say something similar to what she said.

Connor should not be held responsible for his actions in S3. He grew up in a hell dimension and was taught for 17 years and was taught Angel was a horrible monster. He was New to this world, and had quickly picked up on how hard it was as he's lost his first friend Sunny, he attacked Cordy because he was taught demons were bad no matter what and he was tricked into believing Angel had killed the person he thought of as his father. I've said this before but Angel should have tried to talk with him in S4, explain to him the ways of the world, let him know he was loved and helped him with his trauma. But instead, Angel kicked him out of the hotel twice (once during an apocalypse), treated Connor more as competition for Cordy instead of as his actual son, and memory wiped him. There is no doubt in my mind that Angel loved Connor (more than he loved Buffy or Cordy) but he just gave up on actually being a father when he realized it wasn't going to be easy, and gave up on Connor because Connor wouldn't be the dutiful, Notre Dame graduate he wanted him to be. Those parallels between Liam and his father and Connor and Angel in "Spin the Bottle" weren't coincidental as that's exactly what Liam's father did to him. Gunn and Fred had every right to be hurt or bitter towards Connor for what he did, but they were still both adults and shouldn't have pitted Connor against Angel the way they did. When Cordy dedicated to stay with Connor in "Slouching to Bethlehem" their line to Angel ("she'll see who the real champion is") is horrible as they are pitting father and son against each other. The real sad thing is that Angel takes comfort in them saying this.

We see Harmony and the Cordettes greeting Cordelia and not being surprised to see her in the Wishverse, so it's clear that she did live after the Harvest. From the way Cordettes worship her ("Cordy, you reign"), and from the way John Lee begs for her to go with him to the Winter Brunch, we know that Cordy had what she wanted: her status and popularity. But from Harmony's behavior and the state of Sunnydale, we know that she might have had to grow up fast and she doesn't get to enjoy her popularity the way she'd get to normally due to the curfew and vampires. We know what Cordy's life was like in the Wishverse. ALL we know about Birthdayverse Cordy is she's a famous actress.

On "Disharmony": I love Angel and Cordy jumping up and down, and Wesley's pissy expression. The fact that the two of them made the opening credits is even better!

FuriosityShell

Buffy didn't love Spike when they were sleeping together in season did though. It's made pretty obvious that she was just using him to get through her depression. In S7 yes I think she loved him, but in S6 when they were actually sleeping together.

Why would Buffy tell Angel that Spike raped a lie. 1) He didn't rape her, he ATTEMPTED to (which is not a justification, just the fact). 2) There was MUCH more to their relationship than that. 3) Spike had a soul now and was essentially a different person from the one who tried to rape her. Bringing up the attempted rape is like bringing Angel's murder of Jenny. She would be lying to Angel and undermining Spike and everything he had done for her in the past year.

I saw Buffy and Angel's reunion in "Chosen" as affirming that they'll always be in love with each other. However their love won't get them back together, nor will it stop them from loving or having relationships with other people. Buffy sending Angel away was a way of saying, "Yes, I love you and I think about the possibility of us back together, but Spike is the one in my life right now." It's the same thing with Angel and Cordy. If Buffy showed up in the middle of "You're Welcome" saying she wanted to get back with Angel, even though he loved Buffy, he wouldn't cast off Cordy. He would probably say something similar to what she said.

Connor should not be held responsible for his actions in S3. He grew up in a hell dimension and was taught for 17 years and was taught Angel was a horrible monster. He was New to this world, and had quickly picked up on how hard it was as he's lost his first friend Sunny, he attacked Cordy because he was taught demons were bad no matter what and he was tricked into believing Angel had killed the person he thought of as his father. I've said this before but Angel should have tried to talk with him in S4, explain to him the ways of the world, let him know he was loved and helped him with his trauma. But instead, Angel kicked him out of the hotel twice (once during an apocalypse), treated Connor more as competition for Cordy instead of as his actual son, and memory wiped him. There is no doubt in my mind that Angel loved Connor (more than he loved Buffy or Cordy) but he just gave up on actually being a father when he realized it wasn't going to be easy, and gave up on Connor because Connor wouldn't be the dutiful, Notre Dame graduate he wanted him to be. Those parallels between Liam and his father and Connor and Angel in "Spin the Bottle" weren't coincidental as that's exactly what Liam's father did to him. Gunn and Fred had every right to be hurt or bitter towards Connor for what he did, but they were still both adults and shouldn't have pitted Connor against Angel the way they did. When Cordy dedicated to stay with Connor in "Slouching to Bethlehem" their line to Angel ("she'll see who the real champion is") is horrible as they are pitting father and son against each other. The real sad thing is that Angel takes comfort in them saying this.

We see Harmony and the Cordettes greeting Cordelia and not being surprised to see her in the Wishverse, so it's clear that she did live after the Harvest. From the way Cordettes worship her ("Cordy, you reign"), and from the way John Lee begs for her to go with him to the Winter Brunch, we know that Cordy had what she wanted: her status and popularity. But from Harmony's behavior and the state of Sunnydale, we know that she might have had to grow up fast and she doesn't get to enjoy her popularity the way she'd get to normally due to the curfew and vampires. We know what Cordy's life was like in the Wishverse. ALL we know about Birthdayverse Cordy is she's a famous actress.

On "Disharmony": I love Angel and Cordy jumping up and down, and Wesley's pissy expression. The fact that the two of them made the opening credits is even better!

Ashes Fall

Buffy had expressed hoping to get back together with Angel and then Angel started making a fuss about Spike. This was the hypothetical the scenario she could have chosen if she'd wanted to discredit Spike, yes by lying and pursue that initial thought of getting back together with Angel.
Is this a plausible scenario? No, of course not and I never said it was. Buffy would certainly not be such a b****. I'd merely said that if she'd wanted the opposite outcome, which was to appeal to Angel rather than to stay with Spike, this option was a possibility meaning that as implausible and as untrue as the words 'Spike raped me' would be, she could still have said them. She didn't suddenly go mute or was cursed to be unable to tell a lie. Just like how while the words 'I hate Cordy and Angel' would be untrue from my lips, I could still literally say them.

He tried, in season 3. Angel had done even better than telling Connor he was loved, he showed him. He'd shown Connor photographs of his infant self being held and smiled at and loved by him and Cordy.
When Angel found Connor with Sunny he'd tried to explain to him how she'd died because she'd made a choice that was wrong, that drugs and anyone who tried to encourage him to use them needed to be avoided.
He'd shown Connor sympathy for Holtz's death, tried to explain what really happened and most importantly gave Connor Holtz's suicide letter which considering it all wasn't required of him so was quite respectful.

Even if that wasn't enough, Angel can't fully be held accountable for a less than valid attmept any more than Connor can for his misguided actions. Let's not forget that he was lost as well.
Because Connor was taken from him at such a young age he didn't get a chance to learn to be a father, to even figure out how to explain to a 5-year-old where babies come from or how to help a 10-year-old with his homework much less teach an adult about the real world.
It also has to be kept in mind that he couldn't force Connor to be receptive to him, to give him consideration which Connor didn't in the least.
As you said, Connor had spent years being taught to regard Angel and the general demon population which a certain viewpoint which can't be changed in a matter of days, weeks or even months. You can't just tell a tell someone that the person they knew, respected and loved as a parent raised them in lies and expect them to just accept that.

There is also a miscommunication between us here in that you keep using the viewer perspective while I'm arguing that the characters could not have seen it as the viewers did. While they knew Quar-Teth was no paradise, they didn't know Holtz as a parent, it wasn't possible for them to get inside his head.
They had no way of compartmentalizing what of Connor was groomed by his envirnment and what part by Holtz. Perhaps they'd considered that a father whose children didn't get a full life wouldn't allow someone else's child, even his enemy's meet the same fate to the extent that was possible in a hell dimension. From their limited viewpoint perhaps when it got the sleeping with 'Cordy' bit that it was possible that Holtz had educated him sexually. Connor did go through puberty regardless of where he was and had to have had questions.
The important thing to remember is that they didn't know every single thing we did, that Holtz was grooming him.

Even Angel didn't know just exactly how horribly Holtz had treated Connor. Recall how genuinely shocked and hurt he was to find out about Holtz's training excercise in which he'd abandon Connor at as young as five years old for several days at a time expecting him to track him down?

Moving on to 'Disharmony': I love how while Angel is jumping with Cordy he shots his big ole grin at Wesley as in "******* you I win!" since he'd bought Cordy off against Wesley's advice.