Jaime Bee

Spike and Angel fought for what they thought was the Shanshu on the show Season 5.

It was supposed to be some drink to make you human.

I can't remember all the details.

Spike actually won. It ended up being Mountain Dew.



Angel also had a nightmare that included Spike getting the Shanshu.

It is plausible.

Plus that would be something Joss would do for the irony.

Most don't take the Comics as Canon me included.

Spuffy are finally a real couple in them with all supporting them together.

Well not Angel of course.

Joss still writes parts of them.

I will stick with my headcanon.

That has Cordy back b/c Angel needed her and SpuffCan working together fighting evil.

There is nothing about either getting the Shanshu.

Anget was human for a day and hated not having his vamp powers.

Spike would feel the same way I'm sure.

He hated being human before he was even turned.

I didn't mean this to be So long.

Ashes Fall

Wow, that's hilarious, but I wonder, did Angel really want the Shanshu at this point or did he just NOT want Spike to have it?


This is suggestive of the latter. It does make sense, they've always been rivals.

The only reason I question the plausibility is because when the Shanshu prophecy was found, (and possibly when it was written), Spike didn't even have a soul. I suppose that shouldn't matter so much, it's probably just the little taste I find in Spike having a soul speaking.

He just wasn't used to it is what it was, it was more that he felt like he'd be a liability to Buffy, wasn't he even told somehow that she'd have been killed under these circumstances? He also considered the city full of innocents which would suffer without him. So it really wasn't about whether or not he liked being Human, he, in fact loved it. He loved eating, lol.
"Food! I love food!"


Is this part of your headcanon or the actual canon? I've read that in the comics Bangel actually gets back together which totally pisses me off just knowing about!
I'm not gonna read the comics. There is only one thing I've heard about them that I actually like and of course it's a Cangel concept hehe:

Somehow Angel accidentally names some kind of pet dragon after Cordelia. There was a post about it on the F***YeahCordyAngel tumblr. If memory serves I believe I read that Cordy comes to him while he's in some kind of unconscious or delirious state though I wanna say it wasn't clear as to whether it was really her or a hallucination.
Note the word 'accidentally' in that first sentence BTW! Meaning it sounds like his mind naturally goes to her.

I like this headcanon. I'll add it to mine if you don't mind. I actually have a few possible scenarios including Team Angel (Cordy included, Jasmine never happened and she and Angel hooked up at the beach like they were supposed to) joining forces with the Scoobies in Sunnydale for the final battle in BTVS or just one, less threatening situation crossover of both teams, sometimes in Sunnydale, sometimes in LA. I've got some with Cordy coming back after she died in 'You're Welcome' such as there being this whole situation where a strange magic is bringing back the dead, but in the end when they return to their graves Cordy gets to stay and Cordy being Angel's reward for winning his final battle(even though I haven't actually seen his final battle hehe).
I also have one where Teenage Connor is even still with them, but instead of being a douchebag he embraced the team as his family and adores Cangel as his parents. Angel even tries to tell him about Darla, but he shrugs insisting "Cordy is my mother!".
All of them include, at some point, Cangel having a baby girl named Alastrina Doyle Chase (Alastrina being the Irish for Alexandra meaning 'defender of mankind', at least according to Google results). The conception has it's own set of a few scenarios.

tender looks

Spike and Buffy are actually together in the comics at this point, I've seen it. though as Jaime says not everyone considers the comics as canon in the way they do with the show. I'm one of those who doesn't, though as a Spuffy fan, I am enjoying seeing them together.

Ashes Fall

I'm actually more into Spuffy than I ever was Bangel. I'd take that a million times over Bangel getting back together.
I myself have said it, most readers seem to not consider the comics canon, even the ones which were published as such and though I've not read them I am among that majority.

Dagenspear

Actually, if you want to view it from character standpoint, it seemed to be more about Angel's desire to not have a reward be handed to him, to have to earn it. This is actually said by that torture vampire in the Spike episode of season one. He says that Angel isn't one to have something be handed to him, that he wants to work for it. I think that's the case here. Angel is unwilling to accept his reward with Buffy if he can't earn it. He actually had trouble with it as well, because he still had the desire to be a champion, but he didn't have the capability.

Ashes Fall

Very intelligent observation, It's been two years since I've watched the episode (or the season one Spike episode) but I kind of touched that factor when I pointed out that he didn't want to turn his back on the helpless population that needed the champion. In a sense that does indicate that he wants to earn the shanshu by finishing the job before receiving it.

That's another reason why I'm not buying Spike as being the vampire with a soul intended for the shanshu, it was Angel who was enlisted by the powers to be the champion. Unless there is a season five episode where Spike is somehow established as a champion as well, but I'm sorry I'd find that redundant and meaningless, just as I already find Spike with a soul to be.

To ease any harshness towards the character this may have suggested, it's NOT the character of Spike himself that makes me dislike his having a soul, it's the fact the concept of the single vampire with a soul was weakened by giving it to a second vampire. I used to feel the same way when suddenly there were two slayers, but Faith grew on me in season 4 of Angel. In addition I feel the contrast wasn't well developed between Spike without a soul and with. He didn't feel much different to me, at least in BTVS, I've yet to watch the fifth season of Angel, but plan to this week. Then again when we see the flashbacks of him turning his mother, he didn't seem to have changed in behavior when he was turned from human to vampire, and as someone pointed out he disliked being human so much before vampirism was introduced to him that he kind of already had the personality of a vampire before he was one, something that is actually tastefully unique. The only thing missing is that it would have been epic had he started writing dark poetry when he was turned and then started writing like this dark love kinda stuff when he first became obsessed with Buffy.

Crap, we are so getting off topic here hehe. I'm working on a new Cangel art piece as we speak but am forced to juggle it with this project for my class that is due Wednesday and don't have a specific layout idea in mind, which means I have to just fiddle with a bunch of images. So it could be a while before I get it done.

Ashes Fall

So today I've begun season five, I'm up to episode 7 now and it's already a lot more obvious than you get just by watching 'You're Welcome' alone that Angel really needed that last visit from Cordy. (Tender Looks, I especially recommend watching 5.6 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco', that's where the line "I am lost without you" is really pronounced).

Kinda cringe worthy how so far she's kinda being treated as though she never existed. First "You think you gotta shot with werewolf girl?" when it's only been like a month since Jasmine and then Gunn can't see that W&H is not the core of the disconnect Angel expressed feeling, sure it's some of it but he totally misses his Cordy even if he himself doesn't realize it.
This was one of the reason I was afraid to watch this season, but I am told there are more references and hints that he's pining for her later after YW.

Jaime Bee

Welcome Dagenspear.


Ashes Fall

Buffy chose Spike as her Champion.

Buffy: Angel said the amulet was meant to be worn by a Champion.

Spike wouldn't have been able to use the amulet if he wasn't one.

The personalities as humans makes a diff.

Angel was a drunk and womanizer.

Spike was William the bloody awful poet.

As far back as Season 2 it was established that Spike still had humanity and Angelus didn't.

The Judge could tell both Spike and Dru still had.

I don't really care about who gets the Shanshu.

I think the irony would be funny though.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

I can't wait to see your new art.

Ashes Fall

That art is beautiful!

The beginning of season five of AtS clarifies that at that point not much was known about the amulet, so no, I don't believe it had to be a champion, that was just Angel's personal interpretation.
It's subtly debated throughout the season but never clearly answered whether the intended wearer was Angel or Spike, however, from what I am told the wearer it required was described as being "more than human but with a soul" , no specification of a champion. So actually a handful of other characters also fit the profile; Buffy, Faith (slayers), Cordy (Half-demon, if she hadn't been put in a coma), Nina or Oz (werewolves), Possibly even Willow (witch).

FuriosityShell

That art is very beautiful. I never liked how Angel was when he returned in the Buffy finale. He had JUST lost his son and the woman he loved, but he shows up in Sunnydale all lovestruck by Buffy? I didn't buy it. While I loved it when the shows crossed over, it always felt like Angel treated the characters from Buffy with more respect and consideration than vice versa. I always wonder how Buffy would have reacted to Angel and Cordelia.

But I want to like season five a lot, but I just can't because of Cordy's GLARING absence. I think it's alright, and I like the interaction between Spike and Angel, but I can't bring myself to love it as much as the previous seasons because of no Cordelia.

Ashes Fall

Welcome to the thread Furiosity, I couldn't agree more. I'd refrained from mentioning it because I've been asked not to slam Bangel around here but it had irritated the crap out me how he'd kissed Buffy and was jealous that Spike had her heart after he'd fallen HARD for Cordy and had only JUST lost her (and Connor).

It's for this reason that it's taken me so long to watch the fifth season in the first place. I'd initially watched the opener and was like "nope, this is crap", Wolfram and Hart was part of it but mostly it was the absence of Cordelia though in 6 episodes I can already tell that she does have a faint presence in how obvious it is that Angel had lost himself without her, that he was missing her more than he likely realized. I'm wondering if the reason he'd kissed Buffy was because he was trying not to think about how much it hurts not to have Cordy anymore. His voice that whole time had instantly come off to me as just wrong, it had a cold, even kind of Angelus like edge to it. So I don't think he was himself.

Anyway I decided to start watching it now mostly to familiarize myself with the references in various forum discussions.

tender looks

You're both ahead of me, I actually own season 5 on DVD and have done for years, but I've just never brought myself to watch it aside from You're Welcome. I keep saying I'm going to. But I just cannot fathom watching the show attempt to function without Cordelia, YW just further stated how vital she was to making this show what it was for me.

Ashes Fall

I'd spent the past two years refraining from watching season five for that exact reason and six episodes in it's glaringly obvious that Angel is nothing without his Cordy. Episode six 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco' particularly gives power to his statement in 'You're Welcome' "I am lost without you". In the beginning of the episode he even point blank tells Gunn that he feels disconnected from the work which is how he started out, what Cordy (and Doyle) changed. Gunn idiotically thinks it's because they're working the enemy's territory now and that's another thing that's bugged me so far, how Cordy's existence is kind of being ignored so far other than one subtle and not very enthusiastic comment by Fred.
First it was "Think you gotta chance with werewolf girl?" (Angel saves a young woman from a werewolf but not before she's bitten so he has to help her with her first turn and to come to terms with her condition so she'll control herself and prevent casualties) and then Lorne with a sleep deprived mojo flip gets Angel to bang Eve! It's the first month since Cordy went into a coma and they want him over her, like she was never even there, let alone meant anything to him. Unacceptable!

In addition, I did not appreciate Eve's remark in 'You're Welcome' "Cordelia Chase? Oh yeah, Angel talked about you a lot...at first." That's the one and only moment in that episode I actually dislike. Then again, she IS an evil bitch and although Angel may have truly stopped talking about Cordy, he never stopped thinking about her.

As I said I've mostly started watching to familiarize myself with the references made in various forum discussions. It would help my participation and just make me feel better in general to be in that loop. To be honest the Spike/Angel stuff is already pretty funny, I've literally laughed out loud and some of the storylines are pretty well done even. So it's really JUST Cordy's absence that's wrong with it. Wolfram anf Hart I can kinda deal with.
I'm using Netflix BTW. My mom used to own the DVDs, but she sold them all some years ago before I'd gotten into it. Though I'm not sure she owned season five, she did not like it or season 4. That's another reason I'd not watched it all this time, both her and my stepsister told me it was crap.

I meant to target this particular statement when I was responding to your post earlier, but I was on break in class and ran out of time. I've always wondered this myself and really wish they'd explored that. Since Angel had to deal with Spuffy I find it unfair that Buffy didn't have to deal with Cangel, but of course Angel has never really been treated fairly by either the writers or the fans.
Sometimes I imagine it, I think Buffy would initially respond to it with shock and may even lash out in disapproval, but since her heart is with Spike as she herself stated (and I actually bought it, Jamie Bee will know what a big deal that is haha) I think she'd come to accept it. Or else immaturely just cut him off which she does in season five of AtS when she finds out that he's working W&H. Andrew visits W&H in episode 11 'Damage' when the team encounters a new Slayer and at the end he tells Angel that Buffy doesn't trust him because she considers him the enemy and I think that is how the shows ultimately leave them (I hear the comics possibly amend that, but since they are not taken as canon, whatever). Unfortunately, Buffy can be quite immature.

Oh, in that lovely art, the smallest image at the very bottom, what eppy is that from? I don't remember that.

Dagenspear

I disagree. Spike is such a vastly different character than Angel. And from everything the demon that takes over is influenced by the memories of its host. It's also the fact that Spike had support system that helped him. Angel didn't have that. He also had to suffer from the fact that that awful stuff he did came from the resentment that he had for his Father. If you really think about it, did Angel really change that much after being turned? Darla? Drusilla? They all seemed the same, except for vampire blood lust and soullessness. Spike's champion status is established. Either way, I've always maintained that it refers to both of them. That they both are destined to receive the shanshu. That's actually what I had happen in my Angel movie script.

Ashes Fall

I'd accept this idea except that it refers to "The vampire with a soul", singular.

BTW since we are on the subject of season five, I've caught up to 'You're Welcome' (which duh I watched again even though I've already seen it) and, of course one of the best moments of the season (the other being the final scene of the episode):

The moment that made everything in Angel's world right again. It's written all over his face (pretty much pure bliss right there so it's kind of a wonder Angelus didn't happen) and the way he clutches her is like a secret promise to never let her go again.