FuriosityShell

I love "Expecting"! I don't understand why that episode gets so much hate. It isn't perfect or fantastic, but I see it as a campy, funny little episode with a touching moment at the end between Angel/Cordy/Wes. It's also the first episode where we see how much Angel really cares for Cordy.

Last night, I finished reading the entire series of "Angel: After the Fall" comics and it was fantastic! The Angel/Cordy reunion was great. Cordy was written so well. Even though she was a higher being and a guardian for Angel, she wasn't written like Saint Cordelia from S3, she was exactly how she was in "You're Welcome" as the fashion-loving, witty Cordy we know and love. The reunion was brief and only lasted two issues but it was really funny and heartwarming at the same time. If you don't want to read the After the Fall series, at least get issues 12 and 13 to read it.

Ashes Fall

Oh wow, I actually had no idea 'Expecting' was so unpopular, that doesn't make any sense to me either.
As you pointed out it was the first episode where we see Angel feel protective of Cordy and not just against Wilson for raping her but Wesley too. Wesley had spent the entire pre-pregnancy portion of the episode telling Angel that he doesn't agree with her being employed on their team because of how lazy and unfocused she was but Angel didn't even grace him with an indication that he was listening.
What do folks hate about it so much? I wouldn't be surprised if it were simply an anti-Cangel thing, I hate that they are so under appreciated.

I've been considering reading ATF and have read a basic description of Cordy's appearance to Angel in issue 12 and I guess 13 as well. It sounds so sweet, I adore that she's his guardian angel and my favorite part is her undying belief in him as the hero.
It's gives me extra assurance knowing she was well written, but I didn't think there was anything wrong with how she was in season 3 until the Groosalugg showed up, unless that was what you meant?
It just so happens, my friends want to go to our local comic place which is participating in this Halloweenfest, free comic trick or treating event and if this thing is really what is advertised and one is allowed to choose which comics they want, I'll be picking up some ATF.

FuriosityShell

No, it wasn't because of Cangel. I think people didn't like it and discarded it as a lame mystical pregnancy plot. It does have flaws, but I don't take it seriously. I just think it's a fun, little episode with some great character moments.

What I love about AtF is that, unlike season five, Cordy's spirit is preserved even though she's absent most of the time. In the comics, Gunn is a vampire and Wesley has been brought back as a incorporeal ghost by his Wolfram & Hart contract. There's a beautiful scene where Wesley tells the story of how he tried to make himself corporeal by contacting the Powers-That-Be.

WESLEY: "That's why I attempted to contact the Powers-That-Be. More specifically, someone who worked alongside them, someone who, if at all possible, could help us. I didn't tell Angel of my plan. He can't bring himself to say her name, I figured the last thing he'd want is for her to be dragged into this. I also figured doing it in Los Angeles' fashion district could help my chances. I didn't have the incantation memorized, and I couldn't consult books, so I didn't know if I could pull it off. And for hours, it appeared that I most definitely had not. I wasn't surprised. Wolfram & Hart knew what I was doing, and the fact that they didn't stop it meant they knew nothing could come of it. But then, then I felt a breeze. I felt it. Only the most aesthetically pleasing leaves took to the air. She wanted me to know she was listening. That was all she could offer. And like that, she was gone."

And later on when Angel is breezing, Cordy sends a slight breeze. Regarding Angel accidentally naming the dragon Cordelia, it was because he was turned human and jumped off a roof. It took him a while to heal, and while he was recovering he had hallucinations of Cordy and talked to the hallucination to get through the pain. The dragon overheard and thought his name was Cordelia.

Despite those touching moments, there was also this hilarious tidbit:

(Gunn and Connor are fighting)
Angel: Connor can't take Gunn.
Cordy: I don't know. He looks pretty good to me ... Not like that, I am a higher being.



P.S. When I said Cordy was wasn't St. Cordelia like in S3, I meant after Groo returned and she had the blonde haircut. She was actually really great in the first half. I ADORED her in "That Vision-Thing" (3.02), "Billy" (3.06) and "Birthday" (3.11).

Jaime Bee

There really needs to be a new thread.

FuriosityShell

Cordy/Angel love is growing!

Ashes Fall

Oh gosh, that really is beautiful! Angel can't bear to say her name, how precious.
I so wanna read now!
BTW I'm guessing Wesley's "Wolfram and Hart contact" which made him a visible ghost was Lilah.

Yup, I know those details, I've read a description of that and when Cordy actually appears to Angel in issue 12, though I didn't know he jumped off a roof.

Agreed, along with 'Waiting in the Wings' (up to the Groo scene) those are my favorite season 3 episodes.

Jamie, have we almost reached the end of this thread? I'll try to come up with new titles.

FuriosityShell

Whoops, in my previous post I put "And later on when Angel is breezing, Cordy sends a slight breeze". I meant to put "And later on when Angel is brooding, Cordy sends a slight breeze to cheer him up".

And Wes is even worse off than Lilah. He's like Spike was in early S5, able to walk through things and unable to touch things. If I recall, Lilah could open doors.

For possible thread titles, you could say "because Angel called her the most beautiful girl he's ever seen" in WitW? Or "because Angelus couldn't turn her down" in "Soulless"? I don't know, I suck at these things.

Ashes Fall

Hehe I figured the 'Breeze' thing was a typo but wasn't sure what word it was meant to be. Awww, Cordy sending him a breeze while he's brooding.

As for the thread title, "Because Angelus couldn't turn her down" isn't really appropriate, wasn't that Jordy? Though I think it would have been awesome and hot if they'd done a storyline where Angelus couldn't resist the real Cordy, like a Hannibal/Clarice obsession. Another of several ideas I have that would have made way better Angelus storylines than the Jordy/Beastmaster crap.

"Because Angel called her the most beautiful woman he's ever seen" is a good one though.

Hmm an Awakening related title comes to mind, something along the lines of: "Because she broke his curse in a fantasy" or "Because it only took a fantasy for her to break his curse".

FuriosityShell

Yeah, but Angelus didn't know she was Jordy. He thought she was the real Cordelia and was willing to give up on information on the Beast if it meant having her to himself.

They really dropped the ball with Angelus in S4. Angel's love for Buffy is what caused all of the torture in late BtVS S2 and gave us that outstanding arc. But in AtS S4, Angelus just sits around making crude jokes, not even doing anything. Angelus should have made it his main mission to torture Cordy, Connor and the rest of the gang beyond imagine, but instead he just ignores them for the most part and only messes with them out of boredom or due to being stuck in the cage. Angel loved Cordy and Connor. It was weak writing to not have him be as disgusted by his love for them as he was for his love of Buffy, and do something to torment them. He was great in "Soulless" (because he was locked in the cage and was able to do what he did best: torment the gang with words) instead of the other episodes. Lilah, Faith and Willow carried that arc in my opinion.

But seriously, imagine how epic it would have been to see real!Cordy tackle Angelus in spite of her feelings for him. We got a glimpse of this in "Eternity", but at that time it wasn't much of a struggle for her, considering she and Angel only saw each other as friends (though I personally believe she had a small, subconscious crush on him in S1).

Jaime Bee

This thread should had been closed at 300 posts.


Most of the time it shows up as 299 posts on the board.

I saw nobody was gonna start the new one.

So went ahead and did.

http://www.fanforum.com/f11/cordy%E2...dley-63157544/

Ashes Fall

A valid point but regardless what he was actually responding to was Jasmine's behavior/attitude. We have to ask ourselves would that effect have been the same had it actually been Cordelia who would not have been behaving that way?

Agreed, while the Hannibal, verbal mindscrewing/getting under the skin vibe we got from the cage portion of the arc was brilliantly done, it was solidly established that the basis of Angelus in this arc was what, in his eyes, made Angel weak. Since the curse was cast, Angelus' behavior has been based on resentment of what he'd been experiencing with a soul, as Angel, hence the focus on Buffy in BTVS:
"She made me feel like a human being, that's not something I can just forgive!"
(I disagree with this notion, it was Cordy who did that but I digress)

So for this arc not to have Angelus give some specific focus to Cordy, Angel's greatest weaknesses, whom had given him humanity, the very thing he'd resented Buffy for in BTVS and made a point of getting back at her for, left it incomplete and almost purposeless. Especially since in 'Orpheus' he even makes a point of regarding Angel, metaphorically to his face the way his father had once regarded Liam. That should have been more concentrated on Cordy and Conner, though I did like the diner story.

Though I believe by 'Orpheus' Cordelia is revealed to the viewer as the voice behind the Beastmaster as well as there having been a scene somewhere of her in possession of Angel's soul thus introducing the suspicion that it's not really her, they still could have worked something in. While she didn't bother to do it often, Jasmine was capable of doing a very indesipherable impression of Cordy, they could have used that in the cage portion and instead of wandering around L.A constantly arguing with the beastmaster in his head, when Angelus tricks the team into letting him out by convincing them he'd been re-ensouled that's when he should have started targeting Cordy sort of the way he did Buffy.
He'd already tried to mess with Connor in the cage but if memory serves Connor almost seemed more satisfied with Angelus than with Angel because Angelus confirmed everything Holtz had taught him about Angel and validated killing him. Hell, I dare consider that the real Cordelia might not have been rattled by him either, like we saw in 'Eternity', she's always been very strong minded.

I'll say I wouldn't be completely satisfied after knowing it was never really Cordelia but it would have been something that reinforced that Angel loved her and thus was his greatest weakness.

Majorly epic indeed, and I do actually believe 'Eternity' counts more than you are giving credit for.
Recall how in BTVS she'd been crushing on Angel, trying to essentially steal him from Buffy but when it was confirmed to her that he was a vampire (Buffy had straight up told her but she hadn't taken it seriously) it was a turn off to the point where she'd even been among those who wanted Buffy to shove him into the literal hell hole Angelus had opened.
Now this actually sounds somewhat bad because it suggests she was unaccepting of him but that's not the way I see it. To me it shows that she wasn't blinded by her attraction to him.
In 'Eternity' you can tell that she still longed for him by her responses to Wesley's comments that Angel only achieved perfect happiness in Sunnydale because it was with Buffy and that he'd never find it with an actress, the latter pretty greatly personally offended her. Yet she'd faced Angelus without a single flinch, with such a deadly serious demeaner that she had him totally blindsighted by fake holy water. I love that scene, BTW, that was so boss and the point at which Cordy had officially out-badassed Buffy. We also see how well she graps the reality of him by her monolouge in this scene about how she'd been keeping a stake in her desk and a cross in her purse to always be prepared for Angelus.

We also see it in 'Solombolist', even in 'City Of' by the fact that she even became a part of his mission as the champion and his life in the first place. Not to mention from how she was able to figure out that Russel was a vampire by picking up on the subtle signs in his home. This says that she'd always been paying attention to what Angel was and understood it well, I dare say Cordy might have learned more from Bangel than Buffy herself had.

What I am trying to sum up here is that I believe Cordy would still stake Angelus even after she'd fallen in love with Angel. She's Cordelia Chase, she takes crap from no one remember? Plus she knows it's what Angel wants, notice how it actually lit him up with relief in 'Solombolist' when she assured him that she'd kill him if he ever actually went Angelus again.
It would hurt like a mofo to lose her Angel and possibly would never be able to give herself so deeply to anyone else again but she'd know she did the right thing, that she'd done right by the innocent citizens of LA and by him.

Oh geez, I didn't mean to write an essay sorry >_< hehe.

FuriosityShell

Ahh, I see what you mean about Angelus not resisting Jordy.

I always thought there would have been something very interesting if Angelus found out Cordy was evil and they sort of took over L.A. together in a twisted, evil couple way. But that couldn't have made sense since it wasn't really Cordy. But if circumstances and certain plot points were changed, it could have been interesting. This is another thing that makes me upset about Cordy in S4. It was a risky storyline that I prefer would not have happened, but it did have potential to be awesome. Fred turning into Illyria could have sucked, Willow going evil could have sucked, but they didn't. They were great storylines, and some of the most memorable ones.

I disagree with you about Cordy's feelings for Angel.

I firmly believe Cordy's crush in BtVS S2 was just a shallow crush, mostly driven out of attraction to him and a desire to one-up Buffy, no different from Cordy trying to steal Owen from Buffy in "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date" (B, 1.05). Cordy lost all interest in Angel after finding out he was a vampire as, while she worked to save him with the rest of the group, she still showed complete disinterest in him in "What's My Line? - Part Two" (B, 2.10). In "City Of" she was still rather indifferent to see him and even wondered if he had gone evil and "I should get mingly; I should be talked to people who are somebody. But it was fun" implies that she had no interest in seeing Angel again after that party.

I personally believe that he saved her from Russell, a small subconscious crush on him formed in her mind. A subconscious crush; I don't think Cordy lie awake at night in S1 thinking about Angel. You have to remember that their relationship started out as a friendship, which was one of its many strengths. To imply Cordy was in love from the start sort of erases that. Her exchange with Wesley I believe was just her being offended and thinking Wes was putting down actress. Her getting offended and Wes saying "sorry" like he understood where he went wrong implies he knew about her crush on Angel. While I agree she had a small crush on Angel, I don't really she even fully realized, let alone would she tell Wesley. While Cordy was extremely badass in "Eternity", it was nothing compared to Buffy in "Innocence". To give credit to Buffy, who unlike Cordy, had no idea there was a possibility of Angel turning evil. Angel threatened Willow and verbally tormented Buffy in that classic scene in "Innocence", all he did to Cordy was criticize her acting skills. Not to mention Buffy still managed to take out the Judge, to fight Angel and could have killed Angel at the end of "Innocence" if she had it in her. Cordy overcoming her friendship with Angel knowing there's a possibility he could lose his soul is nothing compared to Buffy overcoming her intimate love with Angel not knowing he could lose his soul. I take high disagreement with this statement because it not devalues Buffy's love for Angel, but it devalues Cordy's later love for him as well. If Cordy had been true Cordy in S4 and faced off to Angelus, then we could compare the two as Cangel had become a true love by that point.

As for me, I believe Cordy's real feelings for Angel started when she began to feel threatened by the presence of Darla and Darla's connection with Angel and when Angel fired her, which extremely hurt her.

You'll probably disagree with me on these points, but that's perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree. Neither of us are wrong or right, we just have different interpretations of a relationship we both love.

Wow, now I'm the one making the essay.

Ashes Fall

It's not just Jordy that invalidates that idea, it's the fact that any form of an evil Cordy could never truly be Cordy unless possibly, she were turned vampire, thus completely removing her soul from the picture without the interference of another. There is actually a fan video of a storyline like the one you suggest though I deleted it from my playlist, sorry. You can probably find it searching under 'Angelus and Evil Cordy', the song is 'Time is Running Out'. It's pretty well done, most of Cordy's scenes are actually of Charisma's 3-episode role in Charmed. She played a demonic seer character who enlisted the three leading characters, sister witches to be her bodyguards while she sought a way to become human but was killed before it could be achieved, go figure.

This is unfair to Cordelia who could not help having knowledge of what she was up against by the time she was to face it, "knowledge is Power", she had knowledge and she used it how can you be devaluing that? At the same time it devalues her friendship with Angel, the power of friendship in general, it made their relationship stronger that it was friendship based, more than that actually, they were family and family is pretty impenetrable.

Buffy DID know Angel could lose his soul, she knew of the curse and its clause but didn't really think much of it; she couldn't see past his soul until it was gone and even then couldn't bring herself to slay Angelus when she had at least two perfect opportunities.

All I was trying to point out was evidence that Cordelia would have staked Angelus even after falling in love with Angel yet I've unintentionally steered this topic in an inappropriate discussion for this thread and for that I apologize. I don't like to ship war but everyone slips sometimes.

The other regulars here; Tender Looks and Jamie Bee don't like discussing season 4 so I fear we've been keeping them away by constantly ending up in that direction. This thread is for a positive look at Cangel which truth be told, season 4 doesn't much allow thanks to Jordy.

Ashes Fall

Hey Furi, as an offering of no hard feelings, I went ahead and found that fan video I told you about, the Angelus and Evil Cordelia AU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Ir1Rer6m8

There is no specific storyline per say; Evil Cordelia solicits herself to Angelus and they spend one night making trouble together and having sex.

Charmed Slayer Angel

New thread: http://www.fanforum.com/f11/cordy%E2...dley-63157544/