kitsune

courtneybangelcakes and I are going to be posting discussion threads for the seasons that have no been posted yet. Please be respectful of other people's opinions and enjoy disussing!

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?
2. What did you think of Wesley's betrayal and Angel's reaction? Do you think if Cordelia had stayed behind, things would've played out differently?
3. What did you think of Cordelia's character progression throughout the season?
4. Did you like Connor?
5. What do you think of the season as a whole?
6. There was a lot coupling this season, what did you think of the romance this season?
7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why?

tootyfnfrooty

tftnt

kitsune

So much for this season. The first half of the season owns the entire series for me. My favorite episodes are Heartthrob, That Vision Thing, Carpe Noctem, Offspring, Birthday, Waiting in the Wings, & Forgiving. Too many to choose.

On the romance: I'm a big fan of the C/A romance. I didn't feel it was forced at all, and saw lots of things hinting towards a romance toward the second half of Season 2. I really didn't mind the Wes/Fred stuff in the beginning, but when Gunn started having an attraction towards her, I lost interest quickly. It tore Gunn/Wes's relationship apart. They'd gotten so close in S2 and that started disintegrating in Waiting in the Wings and carried out til the end of the series. It was sad and unnecessary. I'm not sure if it was Joss's idea to put those two together because they wanted to make sure Wesley was alone in his decision to steal Connor or what, I just hate that they did that and then continued to do it in S4. This is probably another reason I dislike Fred.

Now Wesley's betrayal, this was some fun stuff. I understand why Wesley did it. He's seen Angel's light and dark side, and he also knew there was no way Angel would seperate himself from Connor, even if a prophecy fortold that he would kill his son. He thought he was doing the right thing in taking Connor. But as fate would have it, Justine slit his throat and was the one that ended up with Connor, and we all know how that story ended. Watching Angel try and kill Wesley at the end of Forgiving is one the best scenes the show has ever had.

I hate that Wesley was abandoned by everyone he had. Only Fred came to visit him once. No one else gave a second thought to him. He made a bad choice and he paid for it dearly. Not even Cordelia gave him a ring! Apparently by then it was "Angel's feelings are the only ones I care about!" She should've been there for Wes. She had known him the longest, they were there for eachother through Angel's dark period, and they were the closest friends on the show. It was absolutely ridiculous to me that she wouldn't even give him a second thought. Connor meant a lot to her too, but I consider Cordy to be a sort of mother to the group, and she is usually the voice of reason. She would've known Wesley had no one else in the world but the gang, and she should've at least checked on him to make sure he was okay despite Angel's feelings.

tootyfnfrooty

this season would have been my favorite but imo it started going downhill fast with couplet, cordy began her decline into saint cordy i think that was jasmine earing her ugly head -not that the actress that played her was ugly you know what i mean-
i hated that wes felt cut off and refused to talk to anyone about the prohecy which was a false one at that, sure i understand why he did what he did, but had he talked to someone esp once he realized W&H had been spiking angel's blood then they could have came to a descision about what to do. and i know a lot of people think i am wrong her but i do not blame angel for what he did. good intentions or not wes tried to kidnap connor himself and ended up getting him kidnapped by holz and taken to a hell diminsion as far as angel knew connor was dead and in angels shoes yeah i would have been with the suffocation but i am speaking as a parent. It would have been different had wes not planned to kidnap connor and he had been taking him for the evening. you know he had even talked to holtz so what made him think that the guy would not try something underhanded. he was totally out for revenge and all he cared about was getting his pound of flesh. watching that scene you just knew Wes was being dupped by holtz. i was screaming at him for being an idiot and wanted to throw a shoe at his head (it bounced of the wall cause my aim really sucks)

one of the things that should have clued us all in that something was wrong with cordy because as much as she loved Angel and Babay Connor she loved Wes too and there is no way a cordy that was totally herself would have not tried to fix her guys. also a big clue was her running of on vacation with groo while connor was still in danger from by about everybody. pre demonize me cordy would have not left them like that

ashleyt

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? Waiting in the Wings was hilarious, That Old Gang of Mine was great at capturing the evils of humanity, the 3 Darla episodes (Offspring, Quickening and Lullaby) because Darla with a soul is the best part of the season "This child - Angel, it's the one good thing we ever did together.", Dad because Angel is adorkable in it and Forgiving for the last scene.

My list for least favourite S3 episode includes everything that I haven't mentioned above. Especially Tomorrow. I don't think there's an episode that was as unbelievable and dull as Tomorrow.

2. What did you think of Wesley's betrayal and Angel's reaction? Do you think if Cordelia had stayed behind, things would've played out differently? I think that the key to the Fang Gang's destruction is the removal of Cordy. Take her out of the picture and things usually go to hell. Wes had no one to talk to because she was gone, which is why he acted so badly. I understand Wes' betrayal but I could understand completely if Angel didn't forgive him. Under the circumstances, I felt that Angel acted better than I expected. The guy is not supposed to be able to have children so this was basically his only chance and Wes took that from him. It's not something he could give back.

3. What did you think of Cordelia's character progression throughout the season? I find the whole "Saint Cordy" thing to be hard to swallow honestly. The best thing about Cordy is that she isn't a Saint. She's determined, driven, tactless and honest. Her heart is big but it's usually not as in your face as it was in S3. She lacked that Cordy fire.

4. Did you like Connor? I didn't but Conner is a victim and it's hard to hate a victim. His whole life, he's been this pawn for everyone and so his decisions/choices were never going to be good ones. He was never really given a chance at happiness or normality.

I just wish someone better looking played him.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? It had potential but I thought the Holtz and Sahjhan storyline was a bit anti-climatic and it didn't feel consistent. There was also the coupling this season that turned it into a annoying soap opera...

6. There was a lot coupling this season, what did you think of the romance this season? I didn't ship on ATS because all of these characters were so lost and engaging on their own without the addition of a romance. It also didn't help that Fred came in between Gunn and Wes. Or that Cordy and Angel's beautiful friendship was forever tarnished by a romance. Why can't men and women just be friends?

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? No couples. The season would have stuck to one consistent theme for everyone instead of being so all over the place.

kitsune

I think Angel had every right to be outraged. Nobody is in a clear state of mind after your child is taken by a trusted friend, and then kidnapped by someone you hate, and then put into a hell dimension. Angel thought his son was dead, and there was no one to put the blame on but Wesley. Holtz was gone with his kid, so he couldn't kill him. I never expected Angel to forgive Wesley for what he'd done immediately, nor do I think him acting out the way he did was wrong, but Wesley's friends should've formed their own opinions. What Wes did was wrong, but they shouldn't have had the mindset to punish away him forever and leave him with no one but himself.

They all make mistakes on this show (be it Wes made a big one), but they are a family.

I agree.

Eh, I kind of have to disagree here. Cordy did this reluctantly at first. She didn't see any pressing danger and she had been single for so long. Angel asked her to not come in and she accepted. I think it was a relief for her to be able to go on vacation with someone she cared about. While the Cordy I had come to understand was more caring and compassionate, she still was Cordy and I think Cordy would've been happy to go on vacation with her new boyfriend.

kitsune

For the most part, I agree. Tomorrow was a huge disappointment as far as season finales go. It just didn't feel like one. There were some things I liked, but overall the episode was not enjoyable and I don't watch it often.

As for Cordy, the first half of S3 I think she is herself. When she returns from vacation I completely agree with everything you said.

~*Echo*~

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? I like Carpe Noctem as a fun, light episode, but other than that, my favorites are mostly the big arc episodes: Lullaby, Loyalty, Sleep Tight, Forgiving, and A New World. My least favorites are most of the midseason stuff, like Dad, Provider, and Couplet, where it felt like the show really hit a lull. My least favorite of the entire season, though, is Double or Nothing. Gunn's one of my favorite characters, but watching 45 minutes of his and Fred's relationship was just painful.

2. What did you think of Wesley's betrayal and Angel's reaction? Do you think if Cordelia had stayed behind, things would've played out differently? I understand why Wes did what he did, and I thought it made a great plotline because Wesley's actions did make sense in a lot of ways given what he knew (or thought he knew) at the time. Unfortunately, he also handled the situation badly by not going to anyone, as Fred points out later. He may have been feeling isolated because of Cordy's absence and his resentment of Fred and Gunn's relationship, but it was ultimately his trying to handle things alone that led to him making such a tragic mistake. I think Cordy being there might have helped, since he was close enough to her that he might have trusted her with what he had learned, but by that point, I think he was already feeling somewhat alienated from the group as a whole, so who knows? And I totally understood Angel's reaction. I can't really condone smothering someone with a pillow, especially given the fact that Angel knows rationally that Wesley was trying to protect rather than hurt Connor, but I think it's a very understandable impulse coming from someone who's just lost his son, seemingly permanently, as a result in large part of Wesley's actions.

3. What did you think of Cordelia's character progression throughout the season? Ugh, this is probably my biggest complaint about season three on the whole. I loved Cordy in seasons one and two, but I couldn't stand her in season three. She just became way too humorless, bland, and saintly. I agree that she was better in the first half of the season, up until about Birthday, but after that, she was like a completely different character who I couldn't stand. Since it started right after she got the half-demon upgrade, I like to fanwank that it was some kind of preliminary sign of Jasmine's influence.

4. Did you like Connor? Yeah, quite a bit, actually. I get why people don't like him, especially given that whole icky ConCord thing in season four and his generally bitter, surly attitude toward the gang, but I really feel for him most of the time, especially in season three, where he's suddenly confronted with the fact that Angel's not the evil monster he was expecting his father to be and he ends up stuck as Holtz's tool in the whole Holtz/Angel conflict. Plus, by all indications, Quortoth wasn't a particularly pleasant place to grow up, and Holtz certainly wasn't the most ideal of father figures, so it's easy to see where his (myriad) issues are coming from.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? I feel pretty conflicted about the season overall, because I think the arc works really well in general, and I loved the development of the Holtz and Sahjahn plotline, the story of Darla's pregnancy, Wesley's journey over the course of the season, and Lilah's growth as a character separate from Lindsey. On the other hand, I also found many of the standalones mediocre, and other than Wesley, I wasn't fond of many of the other characters' plotlines and developments (Fred/Gunn, Saint Cordy, Lorne's . . . lack of any kind of plotline whatsoever). So I guess if I had to make an overall judgment of the season, I'd say that it's interesting and at times rewarding, but also flawed.

6. There was a lot coupling this season, what did you think of the romance this season? Meh, for the most part I didn't think much of it. Angel/Cordy might have been okay if Cordy didn't become Saint Cordy right around the time that Angel started to have feelings for her, which turned me off of them in a big way. Wes/Fred was cute in the pre-WitW episodes, but became kind of creepy to me thereafter given Wes's fixation on her. And I couldn't stand Fred/Gunn. Ugh. Cute in theory (I actually like many of their interactions in the first few episodes of the season), but Gunn seemed to lose a large portion of his personality as a result of the relationship and instead spent way too much time mooning over Fred. Lets see, any other couples? Oh yeah, Cordy/Groo. Meh. Groo was cute, but there was no way that relationship was going anywhere.

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? Cordy's personality changes over the course of the season, because Cordy was so important to the gang's dynamic. Her bluntness and humor added a lot to the show, and that was lost over the course of the season and was greatly missed. Oh, and also her hair, because while CC is gorgeous, that hair was just distractingly bad to me.

kitsune

This, this, this, a THOUSAND times this! I completely agree with everything you said. I hated the fact that once Angel started having feelings for Cordy she suddenly turned saintly (God forbid, he have feelings for the person she already was!), Gunn lost his character to a point where I forgot where he had come from, and Wes/Fred could have worked pre-WitW but they lost their innocence after that episode and then proceeded to ruin the relationship Gunn and Wes spent an entire season building (and imo, it never recovered).

lunas_borednow

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?
Favorite: Billy. The Story the acting, all the characters were interesting and it gave some incite into each and every one of them... possibly not Gunn but at that point I wasn't really liking him anymore anyway.
Least Favorite: Double or Nothing. Fred/Gunn gushing. Fred/Gunn gushing ... Cordy comes back with a bad hair cut... and doesn't act like Cordy... where was that honesty anyway? Gunn at 16 sold his soul to a Demon for a Truck??? WTF was that!??? Gunn they guy who said if it looks wrong kill it, sold his soul to a DEMON oh and then... Fred and Gunn make stupid cutsy talk.

2. What did you think of Wesley's betrayal and Angel's reaction? Do you think if Cordelia had stayed behind, things would've played out differently?
Wesley's betrayal. stupid man you should have told Lorne what was going on instead of hitting him with a heavy object! Gahh! Angel's reaction ... ... Every time I see that scene it scares the crap out of me. After doing that Angel had no right to hate Wesley anymore... My mom says he just needed someone to hate and it pisses me off a lot, I use my mother here because she has had kids and can see the parent perspective and still thought it was horrible. If Cordy had been there yes I think it would have been different.

3. What did you think of Cordelia's character progression throughout the season?
Didn't like it. Saint Cordelia was so wrong... I know it was actually suppose to be a build up thing to her being possessed since Birthday but... Gahhh! The way it worked out sucked.

4. Did you like Connor?
At this point? No! Whine! Whine! Whine!

5. What do you think of the season as a whole?
Strangely despite it's problems it was pretty cool...

6. There was a lot coupling this season, what did you think of the romance this season?
I was a Fred/Wes fan. I hated, hated, hated Fred/Gunn... can someone give me a barf bag.
Groo/Cordy made me feel sad because Groo was such a sweet heart but it was obvious Cordy didn't really love him so much as love having someone love her that much... I mean that is totally a turn on yes but... poor Groo...
Didn't really like Angel/Cordy If they hadn't thrown in the Groo and the weird glowing ways and... I don't know it was just so... Not my thing...

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why?
Gunn/Fred would never have happened! It made no sense and was obviously there so they could isolate Wesley... if they needed to do that they should have done it in a way that made sense instead of having the guy who called Cordy a stick figure date FRED!

kitsune

I totally forgot about that!

lunas_borednow

I never forget a reason to hate that relationship! It sucked so much!

ashleyt

I thought it was believable that Gunn sold his soul for a truck. He hated demons but he wanted to protect his community more Though he could have stolen it and left it at that

lunas_borednow

... I still can't buy it... I mean I could see him doing anything to protect his community, but a man with his temper getting that far, and finding out that much about demons to find the guy who could get him that... I just don't buy it for a second! Particularly when the option to just steal it is there...

~*Echo*~

Yeah, the loss of the Wes/Gunn friendship was the other thing that bugged me about the whole Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle. They were one of my favorite friendships on the show in season two, and I hated that the triangle broke that relationship up. I mean, they eventually made up, but they never got back to that close friendship that was so great in season two and the first part of season three, and the triangle is definitely to blame for that, I think.

You've pretty much summed up my reactions every time I bring myself to rewatch that episode.

Gunn selling his soul for the truck is actually one of the things that bothers me least about the episode, mostly because I pretty much just dismiss it as a stupid "twist" at the end of an already stupid episode. Gunn's young enough that I can kind of buy that he would do something shortsighted, without thinking of the future, to get something (the truck) that he really wanted, but I don't really buy him making a deal with demon over something like that, especially after his inital reaction to Angel in War Zone. Gunn pretty much seemed to hate anything demony back then, and I have a hard time believing that he'd be willing to give a major part of himself up to a demon at any point down the road. Honestly, though, by the time that part of the episode comes around, I'm already so annoyed that the truck thing barely even registers.