Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Betrayers #2: Who betrayed Buffy the most/worse? - Page 4

**ashleyt** · 09-18-2009, 11:06 PM

No that makes sense. But if there's not enough writing to explain why a character would act a certain way then wouldn't that in itself make it OOC? Usually when a characters acts in character the majority of the audience doesn't even need an explanation. It's obvious. And yes, sometimes there are reasons for a character to go against grain but even those situations are easier to explain and understand without simply labelling it OOC.

With Giles in S7, he was different but it was never really explained why he was different. After we were assured that he wasn't the First they should have either explained his behaviour or changed him back. They did neither so most of his actions are unexplainable as they go against his previous behaviour.

Giles has always backed Buffy in the past. Even when he disagreed with her behaviour. And he never let the others gang up on her. I think that was bad writing that caused Giles to be (or seem) OOC.

**Burning Up A Sun** · 09-18-2009, 11:24 PM

I get that. That does make sense. I guess I just don't get why people always need an explanation or for it to be obvious why a character is acting the way he/she is. Sometimes characters just do things. Does that make it OOC?

I just assumed that he was different because of what the council or whoever said about him having a father's love for Buffy. He was almost like a father to Willow and Xander as well, he became more their older friend than a watcher there to help Buffy train and fight evil. He was too close to them and then when he left look what happened? The group brought Buffy back and Willow started abusing magic. Then after he took the magic from the Coven and gave it back he decided to step away from the group. He healed Willow as best he could in England and then reverted back to being just a watcher for Buffy. That's how I explained Giles being the way he was in S7. Don't know if that's even remotely on base but it makes sense to me.

I don't know... I guess I just don't like the term OOC. Maybe it was OOC but like I said I think it's used way too often to explain behavior people don't like.

It's like the word Epic for me.

They are both used entirely too much for my liking.

**ashleyt** · 09-19-2009, 06:25 AM

Maybe Giles had decided to harden his heart towards Buffy and treat her like his slayer but once again, I don't find the reasons plausible enough to believe it.

The closest I ever got to that was Buffy's second death. It made him realize how dependent she was on him and that's why he left. Then in England he decided it was best to strictly be her Watcher so she could grow up and decide for herself.

chemistry86 · 09-19-2009, 07:32 AM

I don't know if it was OOC for Giles to do what he did. For a long time before that I think he's always been feeling useless in regard to Buffy since they graduated highschool, lol. I think the bond between them had been going sour for a long time even though it seemed as if they were getting closer. I also think Giles had issues with her 'judgement' calls because she always ended up in a relationship with a vampire. He wasn't that nice to Angel(us) either.

**ashleyt** · 09-20-2009, 08:45 AM

He didn't like it but he always respected her choices in the company of others. And he never conspired against her either. He could have with Dawn but he didn't, and I probably would have not been as against that as I was with this one.

Unlike the others, he didn't really seem to care about her relatioships. Even the one's with vamps. All he wanted was for her to be loved and happy.

wilywiccan · 10-14-2009, 11:35 PM

Willow didn't start abusing magick when he left. That started in S3 and every season it got worse.

I don't think that Buffy was ever co-dependent with Giles. She could and did stand on her own two feet and make her own decisions. Most of the times she went to him for help was because she wanted him to help and not because she needed him. And when she didn't come to him he felt left out. The only time I saw her try to get him to make decisions for her was for one scene in Tough Love when Dawn was acting out and Buffy didn't want to have to scold her so soon after Dawn slit her wrists and their mother died and Buffy had her vision quest. But she did take the reigns and put her foot down with Dawn. The other time I saw Buffy try to hand the control to Giles was the beginning of S6 but that was because it was the first several weeks after being ressurected. Bargaining #2 through OMWF took place within the first five weeks of Buffy being ripped out of Heaven. It was understandable for her to not be in complete Slayer "I can handle this myself" mode. She was traumatized. He shouldn't have acted as if she was just shirking her responsibility. She was leaning on him because he was the only friend (other than Spike) that hadn't taken part in bringing her back from the dead.

**ashleyt** · 10-17-2009, 06:00 PM

Buffy said it herself in Passion that Giles couldn't leave her because she couldn't make it without him. Even when Giles felt useless, he was never useless to her (excluding S7). Buffy may not have needed her friends on the battlefield but I do believe that their belief in her abilities and their love was important to her. It gave her strength and it's why she survived longer than most slayers.

wilywiccan · 10-17-2009, 08:09 PM

It was definitely Buffy's ties with those she loved more than their actual help that got her through those tough years as the Slayer. Even in S7 you saw her trying to reach out to Giles. The first thing she tried to do when she saw him in BOTN was to hug him but the SITs got in the way. When they were investigating the tree lot she was telling him that she missed him and hoped he would visit more often.

**ashleyt** · 10-17-2009, 08:37 PM

Giles seemed to be the one to push her away

I didn't get it

Do you feel that Buffy betrayed Willow by not wanting to kill Warren?

wilywiccan · 10-17-2009, 08:45 PM

I don't think so. Buffy wasn't just letting him get away with Tara's death. She just didn't believe in vengeance. She thought that Warren should go to prison. While I get why Willow wanted to hurt Warren I think that it was very disrespectful to everything that Tara believed in and she would not have aproved of what Willow did.

Warren had been really hurting and traumatizing Buffy for months with the other characters barely seeing him as anything more than a wannabe villain.

**ashleyt** · 10-17-2009, 09:03 PM

Do you feel that Buffy betrayed anyone?

wilywiccan · 10-17-2009, 09:11 PM

Hmm. Let me think of some moments that fans see as Buffy betraying her friends....I don't see Revelations as a betrayal (he wasn't Angelus anymore and she wasn't planning on giving him "a happy"). I don't see Normal Again as a betrayal (she was infected with demon venom and having severe hallucinations). I don't see Buffy letting Spike live in S7 as a betrayal (it wasn't his fault that he was a Sleeper and he proved that he was trying to redeem by willingly going from a soulless demon to a souled one). I don't think that Buffy stabbing Faith in GD# was a betrayal (Faith shot Angel with a posioned arrow and Slayer's blood was the cure). I don't see Buffy going after Anya in Selfless as a betrayal (she willingly became a demon again and was murdering humans).

I think that Buffy may be the only character that has never betrayed anyone. Maybe that is why she gets betrayed more often then everyone else.

**Burning Up A Sun** · 10-17-2009, 09:19 PM

So you don't think she betrayed anyone at all? She has to have betrayed someone. She's not perfect.

I personally see her keeping Angel from them in S3 a betrayal. Yeah he wasn't Angelus anymore and no she wasn't going to sleep with him again after what happened the last time but he has the same face and voice as the vampire who tortured, killed, and whatever else her friends/watcher/teacher.

I would feel betrayed if I were them. Especially Giles.

wilywiccan · 10-17-2009, 09:24 PM

I don't think that not betraying your friends and family makes you perfect. It just makes you loyal.

I get why they felt betrayed in Revelations but it didn't make it a betrayal. They knew the difference between Angel and Angelus before Innocence. It was part of his history. It wasn't Buffy's issue if they were uncomfortable around him now that they saw Angelus with their own eyes instead reading about him from books. They were the ones that gave him back his soul. They knew that Angel would be back and he would be in the same body that Angelus had worn.

**Burning Up A Sun** · 10-17-2009, 09:30 PM

But sometimes you betray the people you love the most and don't even realize your doing it.

And I think Buffy's friends and Giles were loyal to her... they just had issues that sometimes took over. They still stuck by her when it matters.

They gave him back his soul but didn't know he would be back. They thought she killed him and that was it. But that's not even the point. I'm sure they wouldn't have felt betrayed if she had been honest and told them he was back. It was a betrayal. Who was she loyal to? Her friends and watcher or Angel? Angel there in that moment.

Just because Buffy's the main characters doesn't mean she doesn't make mistakes.