Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Betrayers #2: Who betrayed Buffy the most/worse? - Page 2

Sosa Lola · 08-27-2009, 10:55 AM

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Originally Posted by ashleyt (View Post)

I thought it was a betrayal but I lost all sympathy for the others with the way they handled the confrontation. Well except for Giles.

I understand why they acted the way they did. I would've done the same. It is huge that Buffy was hiding the vampire that tried to kill them all last year, and was kissing him as well.

All the characters handled the situation badly, including Buffy. And I felt bad for all of them, even Xander. I disliked him more when he and Faith teamed to kill Angel than him lashing on Buffy earlier.

**ashleyt** · 08-27-2009, 11:08 AM

I hate that they're always ganging up on her in a group. I don't think it's fair at all. I understood why they were pissed though and I would have been too but that was a horrible way to go about it. Giles knew it too and that's why he kicked them all out so he could yell at her in private.

No one was right but 5 people against one doesn't win points with me. I can't believe that they repeated it in Empty Places, like they didn't learn a thing.

How about her actions in WSWB?

Sosa Lola · 08-27-2009, 11:29 AM

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Originally Posted by ashleyt (View Post)

I hate that they're always ganging up on her in a group. I don't think it's fair at all. I understood why they were pissed though and I would have been too but that was a horrible way to go about it. Giles knew it too and that's why he kicked them all out so he could yell at her in private.

I think Giles realized that what they were doing was wrong after he witnessed that it wasn't fair for Buffy, but before the confrontation, he was okay with it.

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No one was right but 5 people against one doesn't win points with me. I can't believe that they repeated it in Empty Places, like they didn't learn a thing.

There's a difference. The Revelation gang up was intended, while in Empty Places it was a whole group not agreeing with Buffy's plan, it wasn't intended, it was about them expressing their opinion.

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How about her actions in WSWB?

It was more about Buffy being an ungrateful bitch than a betrayal.

wilywiccan · 08-27-2009, 12:39 PM

I don't see Buffy keeping Angel a secret as a betrayal. She was not harboring Angelus. She was taking care of Angel, the vampire with a soul, after he had been tortured in Hell for over a century. He returned at the end of HFT and they found out four episodes later. It's not like she was secretly protecting Angelus since Becoming #2, which would have been five or six months. She didn't lie about killing him, she did send Angel to Hell.

**Burning Up A Sun** · 08-27-2009, 03:45 PM

It was a betrayal pure and simple. No she wasn't harboring and caring for Angelus but to her friends, the ones Angelus tortured and almost killed, he might as well been Angelus instead of Angel.

She deliberately kept it from them because she knew how they would react... and rightfully so since she could for all intents and purposes give him a happy again and he could finish what he started. And what does her not lying about kill Angel have to do with her hiding the fact he was back from them?

She could have just come out from the start and said "Look guys, I know that Angelus was a horrible creature but somehow Angel came back from hell. He's got his soul but he's seriously messed up. I'm trying to help him get back on his feet, no we aren't doing anything naughty, I'm just helping him. End of story." But she didn't. She kept it from them.... there's a reason why people keep things from other people. It's because they know whatever that "secret" is is wrong or would have a bad reaction to if it came out. She didn't lie about him being back but she didn't say that he was. That's a lie by omission and still a lie.

wilywiccan · 08-27-2009, 03:52 PM

To quote Buffy, "Well, sure if you're going to use logic". She didn't know how they would react or what words to use to tell them he somehow mysteriously came back from Hell and so she kept it secret until she felt she'd be ready to have that conversation. Maybe not the smartest thing to do since it led to her looking like she was "keeping secrets" and doing something wrong.

I don't think that all secrets are bad. She kept the fact that they ripped her out of Heaven a secret.

They made it seem like she had been harboring him since the beginning. She did do the months of grieving over having to send him to Hell. I don't think that Xander wanted to see Angel and Angelus as separate people. Part of him was happy that everyone was on Team Anti-Angel. Giles still held a lot of resentment over Angelus killing Jenny and torturing him. Even by Amends he carried a crossbow before allowing Angel in his home. Willow called Buffy sick and didn't see Angel the way she used to until he saved her life.

**ashleyt** · 08-27-2009, 05:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Sosa Lola (View Post)

There's a difference. The Revelation gang up was intended, while in Empty Places it was a whole group not agreeing with Buffy's plan, it wasn't intended, it was about them expressing their opinion.

I thought Revelations was about them expressing their intentions. Both meetings were intentional, the group intended to gang up on her. I'm not saying that they didn't have good reasons or valid points but it's hard for me to choose their side when they seem to believe that group blame-fests are the best way to handle things. Both times could have been handled better but they weren't thinking, they were just judging and passing blame and I didn't think it was the right way of handling it. How else was Buffy supposed to react with multiple people telling her about her failings? And these were supposed to be her friends?

I'm sorry to get all ranty but I hate watching those scenes.

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It was more about Buffy being an bitch than a betrayal.

Oh how I agree with this

I have to say that as a viewer I didn't really see Buffy's actions betrayal because I knew that it was Angel that returned and I didn't really see any BA sex happening after the whole Angelus thing (even though I hoped for it). But if I had been in the Scoobs shoes I would have felt betrayed.

Sosa Lola · 08-27-2009, 06:31 PM

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Originally Posted by ashleyt (View Post)

I have to say that as a viewer I didn't really see Buffy's actions betrayal because I knew that it was Angel that returned and I didn't really see any BA sex happening after the whole Angelus thing (even though I hoped for it). But if I had been in the Scoobs shoes I would have felt betrayed.

I agree. The show is from Buffy's POV, so we understand her actions better. However, if the show was from the other characters' POV, we would have sympathized with them more than with Buffy, because then we will understand their pain better.

Like for example, The Zeppo, it was purely from Xander's POV, and showed his friends thinking less of him, Cordelia extra bitchy, Bangel too melodramatic -if the whole show was from his POV, we would have probably cheered when he lied in Becoming Part 2

wilywiccan · 08-29-2009, 01:55 PM

I'm not sure I'd say that Cordy was "extra bitchy" in that episode. Many S3 eppies had her returning to her S1 persona. I did love Xander walking in on the Bangel angst. ha ha

I still see Faith switching bodies with Buffy and having sex while in Buffy's body and probably doing things to Buffy's body herself as being akin to rape. And that is a HUGE betrayal.

And I don't think that Faith ever realized that sleeping with Riley while IN Buffy's body needed an apology too. She just saw the whole "I screwed her boyfriend" part.

Sosa Lola · 08-29-2009, 02:46 PM

I'm not sure we can call it betrayal, seeing as Faith isn't friends with Buffy anymore. Siding with the Mayor in S3 is betrayal, though.

wilywiccan · 08-29-2009, 02:57 PM

For me, I always felt like Buffy and Faith would always be friends even if they hated each other. They had very strong emotions towards each other and Buffy still would have been willing to help Faith even after the mom-napping and you can tell that Faith still wants to be important to Buffy.

**Burning Up A Sun** · 08-29-2009, 03:03 PM

I can see how Faith stealing Buffy's body would be a betrayal even though I agree with Sosa in that it doesn't really seem like one because they weren't friends.

And I don't think they were ever friends, even at the end of S7. They were really just sisters in arms I guess.

And I honestly can't say that what Faith did while in Buffy's body with Riley was rape. Buffy wasn't there anymore. It was just Faith in her body. And Riley didn't force himself on her. It doesn't really fit the legal definition and to me that's the only definition I go by.

wilywiccan · 08-29-2009, 03:11 PM

Buffy may have not been present in her body at the time but it was still and would always be HER body. She had it for nineteen years and it was the body that Faith had always seen and known her in.

I see it that way because we know that Buffy would not have wanted Faith and Riley having sex together and thus Faith was forcing Buffy's body to allow it to happen. It was a sexual violation of Buffy. We know that if Riley had known Faith was behind the wheel he never would have slept with her.

**Burning Up A Sun** · 08-29-2009, 03:23 PM

He probably wouldn't have but I think I would see it as rape or some form or rape if instead of sleeping with Riley, Buffy's boyfriend whom she had been having sex with, she had gone out and slept with a bunch of strangers. It would still be wrong either way but it's sort of like people having sex with dead bodies. That's not really rape because the person isn't in there anymore, it's just a body. It's not forcible and against their will

Still wrong yes, but rape no. Not for me.

I can sort of see it as a sexual violation against Buffy but that's not the same thing as rape to me. Sexual violations occur in many different forms. You can feel sexually violated from someone touching your boobs or your butt or flashing you and those aren't rape.

wilywiccan · 08-29-2009, 03:29 PM

I can see what you mean. Though having sex with a corpse is against the law and though the person is no longer in their body it is a violation of their remains and would royally piss off the family and friends of the deceased. Necrophilia is only right when it is Buffy getting her frack on with Angel and Spike.

I think that since Buffy was still alive and did manage to get back into her body not that long after the "incident" it is different. For me it is like they had sex with someone while they are unconcious or in a coma or someone who was temporarily out of their body like Willow was when she was on the astral plane.