Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Anti-Bangel: Tears on my Pillow, Pain in my Heart, Caused by You - Page 17

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 09:02 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

That annoys me as well. You come across the ones that say both Angel and Buffy can't move on, the the ones that say he can but she can't or vice versa, or say neither Spuffy nor Cangel was love, and it's like, what defines love? How can you judge one relationship by the standards of another. Every relationship is different. Bangel was first love, but that doesn't mean that they can't move on, or that Spike and Buffy, or Angel and Cordelia, didn't love each other.

Yes exactly. I mean if Buffy or Angel weren't able to move on then they would have come crawling back to each other or not been with anyone else. But Angel fell in love with Cordelia, they just never got their chance and then he had that last relationship with werewolf girl, plus that detective if I remember correctly. Buffy had Riley and then Spike. Just because she loved Angel doesn't mean that she didn't love Riley or Spike. And same goes for Angel. Maybe the later loves in your life won't be as great as your first one but that's for you to decide. Or perhaps they mean something to you in a different way. Which I believe was the case of Angel and Spike.

Also, just because Buffy only told Spike she loved him in the finale doesn't make it any less real. The Bangel lovers love to say that she just said that because he was going to die, but in some episode that I can't remember the name of right now she is complaining because the Scoobies think she is still in love with Spike. Hmm, just because you don't say it every episode doesn't mean you don't feel it. Do I think that's what Spike needed and wanted to hear? Yes. Do I think Buffy actually meant it and had to say it because it was the only chance she was going to get? Yep.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 09:07 PM

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I mean if Buffy or Angel weren't able to move on then they would have come crawling back to each other or not been with anyone else. But Angel fell in love with Cordelia, they just never got their chance and then he had that last relationship with werewolf girl, plus that detective if I remember correctly.

Her name was Kate. And there was also Darla.

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Buffy had Riley and then Spike. Just because she loved Angel doesn't mean that she didn't love Riley or Spike. And same goes for Angel. Maybe the later loves in your life won't be as great as your first one but that's for you to decide. Or perhaps they mean something to you in a different way. Which I believe was the case of Angel and Spike.

I've always believed that a person doesn't love in amounts, but in ways. I don't think you can really measure the depth of someone's love. And first love always seems more passionate because it's new, it's immature, and you believe it's something that will last forever, until you move on.

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Also, just because Buffy only told Spike she loved him in the finale doesn't make it any less real. The Bangel lovers love to say that she just said that because he was going to die, but in some episode that I can't remember the name of right now she is complaining because the Scoobies think she is still in love with Spike. Hmm, just because you don't say it every episode doesn't mean you don't feel it. Do I think that's what Spike needed and wanted to hear? Yes. Do I think Buffy actually meant it and had to say it because it was the only chance she was going to get? Yep.

It was First Date. Them saying that only reinforces my belief that they don't know Buffy as a character. This is the girl who has admitted openly that saying the word love is strange, that she believe's she might not be able to. This is not a person who would toss that word out in pity.

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 09:17 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

Her name was Kate. And there was also Darla.

I forgot about Darla.

All things Angel seems to be forgotten on me a lot.

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I've always believed that a person doesn't love in amounts, but in ways. I don't think you can really measure the depth of someone's love. And first love always seems more passionate because it's new, it's immature, and you believe it's something that will last forever, until you move on.

Yes, I think that Buffy thought that she would never move on from Angel, but she did. Angel didn't want to move on from Buffy but he did and did so willingly. First love seems grand and out of this world. Maybe everything after can't compare, but that's only because it's your first love. You'll never forget it but you do move on, you have to. I don't think anyone can say that Buffy loved Angel more than Spike. Like we've said you can't compare. She loved them both in different ways and at different times in her life which makes a huge difference.

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It was First Date. Them saying that only reinforces my belief that they don't know Buffy as a character. This is the girl who has admitted openly that saying the word love is strange, that she believe's she might not be able to. This is not a person who would toss that word out in pity.

Oh ok, I knew there was a discussion like that. That scene with Willow and Buffy, I think it was, reinforces my point that just because she didn't say it doesn't mean she didn't feel it and didn't talk about it with her friends. Buffy would never say she loved Spike because he was dying. Yes he is in her heart and she needs him there, but if she didn't love him she wouldn't have said it. Give a dying man false happiness, seems a bit cruel. The only reason Spike said that she didn't mean it was because he didn't want her to say it out of pity and seeing Angel again probably brought up old wounds.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 09:21 PM

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I forgot about Darla. All things Angel seems to be forgotten on me a lot.

I loved him and Darla as well as him and Cordelia together, so it's kind of hard to forget

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Yes, I think that Buffy thought that she would never move on from Angel, but she did. Angel didn't want to move on from Buffy but he did and did so willingly. First love seems grand and out of this world. Maybe everything after can't compare, but that's only because it's your first love. You'll never forget it but you do move on, you have to. I don't think anyone can say that Buffy loved Angel more than Spike. Like we've said you can't compare. She loved them both in different ways and at different times in her life which makes a huge difference.

It does. The person who loved Angel was a seveteen year old girl. The person that loved Spike was a mature woman. She react differently to each love, but that doesn't mean she loved either more or less, just different.

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Oh ok, I knew there was a discussion like that. That scene with Willow and Buffy, I think it was, reinforces my point that just because she didn't say it doesn't mean she didn't feel it and didn't talk about it with her friends. Buffy would never say she loved Spike because he was dying. Yes he is in her heart and she needs him there, but if she didn't love him she wouldn't have said it. Give a dying man false happiness, seems a bit cruel. The only reason Spike said that she didn't mean it was because he didn't want her to say it out of pity and seeing Angel again probably brought up old wounds.

It was his own insecurity that made him say that, but she did mean it. You know, a few years ago, there was another bizarre theory going around that Buffy and Angel knew that the amulet would kill Spike, so they gave it to him to prove their love to each other.

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 09:30 PM

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I loved him and Darla as well as him and Cordelia together, so it's kind of hard to forget

I loved him and Darla in the present time but not in flashbacks.

But I love him with Cordy more than anyone.

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It does. The person who loved Angel was a seveteen year old girl. The person that loved Spike was a mature woman. She react differently to each love, but that doesn't mean she loved either more or less, just different.

Exactly. She was a different person when she loved Angel then when she loved Spike. And just because she loved Angel back then doesn't mean she would in the present. People change and so do their preferences. What she liked a year ago might not be what she likes now.

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It was his own insecurity that made him say that, but she did mean it. You know, a few years ago, there was another bizarre theory going around that Buffy and Angel knew that the amulet would kill Spike, so they gave it to him to prove their love to each other.

What?

Angel said on his show he had no idea that would happen and Buffy had no clue that Spike would die. None of them had any idea what the amulet really did so that theory should have died the minute someone suggested it. If it was all a conspiracy then Buffy wouldn't have tried to get Spike to leave with her.

That's just crazy. Oh you know what always bothered me. On "Just Rewards" for Angel when they go back and show what happened to Spike before going back to Angel's office they cut out Buffy telling him she loved him.

Made me mad.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 09:34 PM

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I loved him and Darla in the present time but not in flashbacks. But I love him with Cordy more than anyone.

I love it both times

And I'm a frequent multishipper, but I love him with Cordelia more than Darla.

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Exactly. She was a different person when she loved Angel then when she loved Spike. And just because she loved Angel back then doesn't mean she would in the present. People change and so do their preferences. What she liked a year ago might not be what she likes now.

ITA. And not only that, but they're lives are seperate. The experiences, there friends, what they've done. The girl Angel loved, he couldn't picture her as the emotionally depressed and hurting woman of season six, or the commander of season seven. The man Buffy loved, she would never be able to love him as the man who tried to loose himself in season two.

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What? Angel said on his show he had no idea that would happen and Buffy had no clue that Spike would die. None of them had any idea what the amulet really did so that theory should have died the minute someone suggested it. If it was all a conspiracy then Buffy wouldn't have tried to get Spike to leave with her. That's just crazy. Oh you know what always bothered me. On "Just Rewards" for Angel when they go back and show what happened to Spike before going back to Angel's office they cut out Buffy telling him she loved him. Made me mad.

I know, but it amuses me that they'd rather believe that Buffy could conspire to murder someone than just admit she moved on and loved Spike.

And yeah, that bothers me to.

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 09:42 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

I love it both times

And I'm a frequent multishipper, but I love him with Cordelia more than Darla.

Yeah I'm not good with the multishipping.

I can't ship my couples with anyone but each other. It like hurts.

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ITA. And not only that, but they're lives are seperate. The experiences, there friends, what they've done. The girl Angel loved, he couldn't picture her as the emotionally depressed and hurting woman of season six, or the commander of season seven. The man Buffy loved, she would never be able to love him as the man who tried to loose himself in season two.

Exactly, they didn't know each other anymore. They weren't the same people they loved back then. They loved the people they were and since they aren't those same people they can't possibly still love each other in the romantic sense. I don't think Angel could love the person Buffy has become, in the romantic sense and the same with Buffy.

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I know, but it amuses me that they'd rather believe that Buffy could conspire to murder someone than just admit she moved on and loved Spike.

And yeah, that bothers me to.

Wow, that's just kind of sad. I don't mean to put anyone down but seriously. I really dislike certain couples on other shows but I would never make excuses. Buffy loved Spike. Just because she loved Angel doesn't mean that he has the only rights to her love and her heart or body or whatever.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 09:45 PM

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Yeah I'm not good with the multishipping. I can't ship my couples with anyone but each other. It like hurts.

I love my couples, but I also like some of their pasts ones, so I ship them for the time they were together

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Exactly, they didn't know each other anymore. They weren't the same people they loved back then. They loved the people they were and since they aren't those same people they can't possibly still love each other in the romantic sense. I don't think Angel could love the person Buffy has become, in the romantic sense and the same with Buffy.

Neither do I. Angel's no longer the brooding, mysterious person she feel for, and Buffy is no longer an innocent little girl. It doesn't work between them, and like one of the writer's said, it would be like getting back together in your first marriage.

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Wow, that's just kind of sad. I don't mean to put anyone down but seriously. I really dislike certain couples on other shows but I would never make excuses. Buffy loved Spike. Just because she loved Angel doesn't mean that he has the only rights to her love and her heart or body or whatever.

Neither do I. I don't like Xander/Cordy either, but I'm not denying that they had real feelings for each other, or trying to blow off what they had just cause I love Cangel.

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 09:55 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

I love my couples, but I also like some of their pasts ones, so I ship them for the time they were together

I can do that if I'm not a diehard fan of the other couple. But if I love love love the couple like I do Spuffy it's hard for me to think about them with someone else. I guess it's ok with Angel because I'm not obsessed with him and Cordy like I am Spuffy or my other ships from other shows.

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Neither do I. Angel's no longer the brooding, mysterious person she feel for, and Buffy is no longer an innocent little girl. It doesn't work between them, and like one of the writer's said, it would be like getting back together in your first marriage.

Yes, exactly. It was fun and lovely while it lasted but some relationships are best left in the past with the people they used to be. I just don't think Bangel would anymore. They've matured and grown and realized that what they had was special but can't be brought back.

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Neither do I. I don't like Xander/Cordy either, but I'm not denying that they had real feelings for each other, or trying to blow off what they had just cause I love Cangel.

Right. I don't particularly care for Buffy and Riley, but they did have their cute moments and they did love each other. I think that's how everyone should feel about the couples on a show that they don't like. Just because you don't like them and like the person with someone else don't discredit with the other couple had.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 09:59 PM

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I can do that if I'm not a diehard fan of the other couple. But if I love love love the couple like I do Spuffy it's hard for me to think about them with someone else. I guess it's ok with Angel because I'm not obsessed with him and Cordy like I am Spuffy or my other ships from other shows.

Even with Spuffy, which is my OTP, I multiship.

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Yes, exactly. It was fun and lovely while it lasted but some relationships are best left in the past with the people they used to be. I just don't think Bangel would anymore. They've matured and grown and realized that what they had was special but can't be brought back.

Very agreed. Neither one should rehash old wounds trying to repair something that can't be fixed. Not only would they be hurting themselves, they'd be hurting two people that were there for them and loved them.

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Right. I don't particularly care for Buffy and Riley, but they did have their cute moments and they did love each other. I think that's how everyone should feel about the couples on a show that they don't like. Just because you don't like them and like the person with someone else don't discredit with the other couple had.

Agreed. I hate when people disregard couples just cause they don't like them.

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 10:05 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

Even with Spuffy, which is my OTP, I multiship.

That's impressive. I just can't do that.

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Very agreed. Neither one should rehash old wounds trying to repair something that can't be fixed. Not only would they be hurting themselves, they'd be hurting two people that were there for them and loved them.

The problems that drove them apart in the first place would still be there. They wouldn't go away so it still wouldn't work. Plus I don't see them going a lifetime without having sex.

And pretty soon if they aren't having sex them maybe true happiness wouldn't be sex with Buffy, it might end up being just a passionate kiss or whatever. But that's besides the point.

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Agreed. I hate when people disregard couples just cause they don't like them.

The only time I disregard a couple is when people have some sort of fantasy about what they really consisted of. There is a couple on another show I watch that was based solely on sex and the two people said many a times that they DIDN'T love each other in the least. They were just together because it was what was expected of them. Some of their fans have this delusion that that couple would be wonderful now and full of love and warmth and that they were in love before. Um hello, the guy is married with a son and loves his wife dearly and the other is in love with another man. I discredit that couple because they had nothing and will have nothing forever.

But if they had been each other's first love I would be more inclined to respect and acknowledge that relationshipas something meaningful.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 10:09 PM

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That's impressive. I just can't do that.

I ship Spike with two other characters.

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The problems that drove them apart in the first place would still be there. They wouldn't go away so it still wouldn't work. Plus I don't see them going a lifetime without having sex. And pretty soon if they aren't having sex them maybe true happiness wouldn't be sex with Buffy, it might end up being just a passionate kiss or whatever. But that's besides the point.

Angel knew how Spike got his soul. If he really wanted to, he could have gone to the cave himself and fought to make the soul permanant. He didn't.

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The only time I disregard a couple is when people have some sort of fantasy about what they really consisted of. There is a couple on another show I watch that was based solely on sex and the two people said many a times that they DIDN'T love each other in the least. They were just together because it was what was expected of them. Some of their fans have this delusion that that couple would be wonderful now and full of love and warmth and that they were in love before. Um hello, the guy is married with a son and loves his wife dearly and the other is in love with another man. I discredit that couple because they had nothing and will have nothing forever. But if they had been each other's first love I would be more inclined to respect and acknowledge that relationshipas something meaningful.

What couple is that? Some people say that about Spuffy, but Spuffy did use the words love, and despite outward appearances, were not just about sex.

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 10:13 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

I ship Spike with two other characters.

Angel knew how Spike got his soul. If he really wanted to, he could have gone to the cave himself and fought to make the soul permanant. He didn't.

What couple is that? Some people say that about Spuffy, but Spuffy did use the words love, and despite outward appearances, were not just about sex.

I ship Spike with Buffy and Buffy alone.

It's because Angel is relying on the Shanshu prophecy that might not even be about him anymore.

It's Nathan and Peyton from OTH.

They were just about sex. They didn't love each other. They said it multiple times to multiple people that the didn't love each other. Peyton told Lucas, who she loves, that she was just with Nathan because there was nobody else. Now they are friends and care for each other but people ship them together despite the fact that Nathan is married and very much in love with his wife of 6 years. Those shippers seem to think that NP are great and were in love. Nathan used her for sex and cheated on her with everyone she knew including her best friend. Now that I just don't get at all.

Spuffy was about sex for a little bit in season 6, but Buffy kept coming back to him for some other reason than sex. The hands on the door to his crypt alone signifies that there was a connection beyond sex for them.

NikaDawson · 07-06-2008, 10:17 PM

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It's because Angel is relying on the Shanshu prophecy that might not even be about him anymore.

I believe that the Shanshu was Conner. It's suppose to be about all his sins being washed away, and so he believes that makes him human. I just think all his sins are washed away in the form of a son.

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It's Nathan and Peyton from OTH. They were just about sex. They didn't love each other. They said it multiple times to multiple people that the didn't love each other. Peyton told Lucas, who she loves, that she was just with Nathan because there was nobody else. Now they are friends and care for each other but people ship them together despite the fact that Nathan is married and very much in love with his wife of 6 years. Those shippers seem to think that NP are great and were in love. Nathan used her for sex and cheated on her with everyone she knew including her best friend. Now that I just don't get at all.

Definately not like Spuffy than

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Spuffy was about sex for a little bit in season 6, but Buffy kept coming back to him for some other reason than sex. The hands on the door to his crypt alone signifies that there was a connection beyond sex for them.

In the shooting script it says they are sensing their mate.

I think I remember reading that in Chosen, Joss had intended for Angel to tell Buffy about him falling in love with Cordelia,

TulieMajulie7 · 07-06-2008, 10:24 PM

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Originally Posted by NikaDawson (View Post)

I believe that the Shanshu was Conner. It's suppose to be about all his sins being washed away, and so he believes that makes him human. I just think all his sins are washed away in the form of a son.

Oh that makes sense.

I like that idea. Nobody knows what the Shanshu is and what exactly will happen. Plus, vampires can't have children so for Angel to have one makes him human in some way.

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Definately not like Spuffy than

Most definitely not.

If they were I wouldn't be liking Spuffy.

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In the shooting script it says they are sensing their mate.

I think I remember reading that in Chosen, Joss had intended for Angel to tell Buffy about him falling in love with Cordelia,

Sensing their mate eh?

Well whatever they were doing there was something there besides sex to me.

Dang, I wish Angel had told Buffy. I would have liked to see Buffy's reaction. That could have taken place instead of the cookie dough/baking convo.