[fresley4ever]

Okay here is the last season discussion for the board.

Season five was a good season but I did not like the replacement of Cordelia with Harmony. I also didn't like replace Fred with Illyria. I don't hate Illyria I just feel that they should have done something different to introduce the character. I know a lot of us here do not like Fred and I respect that. I still wish they hadn't half assed killed her off.

[lunas_borednow]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?
2. How did you feel about bringing in Spike?
3. What do you think this season would have been like Cordy had been there the whole time?
4. Did you like Cordy and Connors parts?
5. What do you think of the season as a whole?
6. What did you think of the romance this season?
7. How did you feel about Fred's death and the rise of Illyria?
8. Did you feel Not to Fade Away was a good ending to Angel?
9. How did you feel about the whole, “who's Connor?” set up?
10. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why?

[fresley4ever]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?

Hellbound - Evil ending.
Life of the Party - Really funny and a good Lorne eps. A lot of Fred/Wes.
Lineage - Wesley eps.
Destiny - Because Spike finally kicks Angel's ass!
You're Welcome - Lindsey eps and Cordy is Cordy again!
Smile Time - Really funny and Fred/Wes get together.
Shells - It made me cry.
Underneath - They rescue Lindsey.
Orgins- Connor comes back and is cool!
Time Bomb - I really liked this one for a lot of things. There was a lot of Wes/Illyria and Wesley deliberately lied to Angel.
Power Play - I like the way the whole thing played out.
Not Fade Away - Very powerful eps. I loved it.

I really hate A hole in the World and The Girl In Question. They killed Fred and for some reason Spike and Angel decide to chase after a fake Buffy. Really stupid.

2. How did you feel about bringing in Spike?

I loved it. I have always liked Spike and felt he deserved to still be somewhere.

3. What do you think this season would have been like Cordy had been there the whole time?

I think she might have been able to save Wesley from completely giving up on his life.

4. Did you like Cordy and Connors parts?

Yes I did very much. Cordy was back in character and I finally was able to like Connor.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole?

I think the season was great.

6. What did you think of the romance this season?

I love it! I had been waiting for so long for the Fred/Wes to get together. I didn't mind Angel/Nina and I thought Eve/Lindsey was interesting.

7. How did you feel about Fred's death and the rise of Illyria?

I hated it!!! I am a real fan of Fred and I felt they added another punch first ask questions later character. I personally felt the show did not need that. I mean wasn't Angel and Gunn enough?

8. Did you feel Not to Fade Away was a good ending to Angel?

No. I felt there was a lot of unanswered questions.

9. How did you feel about the whole, “who's Connor?” set up?

I was fine with it. I was a little frustrated at times when Angel would take things out on Wesley when he knew Wes didn't remember it.

10. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why?

I wouldn't have had Fred die. That made me really sad.

[~*Echo*~]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? My favorites are Damage (I loved the Spike/Angel dynamic in this one, and the fact that the show addressed the issues raised by Buffy's actions in Chosen by introducing Dana), You're Welcome (for the return of Cordy), Origin (for the return of Connor as a well-adjusted guy and Wesley's discovery of Angel's actions in Home), and Not Fade Away (loved the time and material given to each character, and I loved seeing them going out fighting, no matter what the outcome of the battle might have been). My least favorite, and quite possibly my least favorite Ats episode ever, was The Girl in Question. Not just because I don't care at all about the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle and found most of the humor kind of broad and overly wacky for the show, but also because it suggested that the gang wouldn't have bothered to call Fred's parents and tell her that she frakking died, which is a prospect that really bugs me.

2. How did you feel about bringing in Spike? I liked it. I didn't like Spike too much in the last couple of seasons of Buffy, but I've always liked his dynamic with Angel, and I thought Ats was generally better able to explore the motivations and flaws of souled Spike in episodes like Destiny and Damage better than BtVS ever did.

3. What do you think this season would have been like Cordy had been there the whole time? Hard to say. I loved Cordy (at least up through mid-season 3), but I don't know where she really would have fit in at W&H. What would she have done? Replaced Harmony as secretary? Copied Gunn's storyline and gotten a brain upgrade of some sort? Helped Lorne in the entertainment division? I just can't see a place where she would have been a natural fit. Not to mention that as we saw in You're Welcome, there was no way that Cordy was going to buy into the whole 'we can use W&H for good' spiel that the gang was deluding themselves into believing for most of the season. Honestly, I can't even see the gang at W&H if Cordy was still around. So I really don't know what would have happened, although it would have been nice to have her as a presence on the show.

4. Did you like Cordy and Connors parts? Yep, their episodes were two of my favorites of the season. Like I said, I don't see Cordy ever buying into the W&H pitch, so I loved her being unimpressed with the gang's current jobs and coming back to set Angel straight. And seeing Connor finally happy and well-adjusted, and that Angel was finally able to give him the good life that he had always wanted to give him, was incredibly satisfying to me.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? I found it uneven, and many of the cases of the week weren't as interesting as I wished they would have been (Unleashed anyone?). Still, I thought the show had some really good individual episodes, especially after it got past the first few episodes of the season. It feels a little disjointed episode-to-episode, and I wish the season-long arc had kicked in sooner, but it produced enough episodes that I love to make me like it pretty well.

6. What did you think of the romance this season? Meh. Didn't care about Angel/Nina or Lindsey/Eve. I liked seeing Wes and Fred get together, but I didn't care about the Wes/Fred/Knox drama leading up to it. The only romance I really enjoyed in season five was Spangel.

7. How did you feel about Fred's death and the rise of Illyria? I didn't really love it or hate it. I didn't like A Hole in the World as an episode very much, but I thought the Fred/Illyria stuff gave Wes some fairly interesting stuff to play at the end of the season. I didn't care much either way about Illyria aside from finding her kind of dull sometimes and kind of interesting at other times, but that was pretty much my attitude toward Fred as well, so that aspect of it didn't bug me too much.

8. Did you feel Not to Fade Away was a good ending to Angel? I loved NFA as an ending. I loved each character getting their final moment in the sun, I loved the reiteration of the theme of fighting no matter what that ran though the show, I loved the ambiguity of the final scene in the alley, I loved it all. It felt very appropriate to Ats.

9. How did you feel about the whole, “who's Connor?” set up? Given that I was one who found Connor a compelling character, I missed him on the show, and the mind wipe set up raised some pretty confusing questions of the 'what exactly do these guys think happened to them in the last two years' variety, but overall, I didn't mind it. I always enjoy when the show emphasizes the ambiguities in Angel's character, and the memory wipe was something that I could definitely see Angel doing to save Connor that also raised some big moral red flags.

10. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? I'd try to have the show flow better episode-to-episode. So often, the events of previous episodes didn't get followed up on very well in the episodes that followed them, or the show would veer off in a weird direction (like Spike and Angel going off to Italy and having wacky antics two episodes before the finale and right before Angel started trying to get everyone worrying that he'd been corrupted, or Cordy's death at the end of You're Welcome getting absolutely no follow-up in Why We Fight). I know they were trying to make the show more accessible to casual viewers, but it made it hard to see consistent character and plot development across the season.

[fresley4ever]

Yes I understand some of that.

[kitsune]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? Umm, I really can't remember a whole lot of this season by titles. I thought Not Fade Away was okay, and while I hated The Girl in Question, the Illyria/Wesley interaction was really interesting to watch. You're Welcome was alright and Origin because of Connor.

2. How did you feel about bringing in Spike? It had been a long time since I'd watched BtVS when I started watching S5 of AtS. I found Spike to be really annoying on the show, not even funny to me. I recently started watching BtVS again and I like him a lot more. I don't know what it is about him being on AtS that his character just constantly irked me. It could be his childish rivalry between Angel. You would think after 200 years they would call it a truce, but whenever they were around eachother they acted like children.

3. What do you think this season would have been like Cordy had been there the whole time? I think it would have been very different. I think we would've seen a much different side to Cordy and we would've gotten to see her dealing with the reprecussions of S4 (which we never did and I always found irritating, but what can you do when she's only in one episode). I think she would've been in a very confused state of mind at first while maintaining her authentic Cordy-ness, and then been able to adjust later in the season to become the Cordy once knew and loved. I also think that if she were around and Spike decided to go rogue, she would've left W&H to work with him. While I think her dedication to Angel is strong and she would never want to see him falter, I can also see Angel being stubborn in thinking W&H could help them in the long run and I can never see Cordy understanding that (and rightly so).

4. Did you like Cordy and Connors parts? I loved all of Connor's parts. It was so refreshing to see him stable and the son Angel always wanted. I love his appearance in the finale too. I know some people thought it was contrived, but I thought it was quite cute and appropriate considering he was such a huge part of Angel's life. I enjoyed seeing Cordy again and I liked the episode well enough, but I just can't accept the fact that she died so swiftly that we only get to see Angel's reaction when Fred gets an entire episode dedicated to her death.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? I have to let go of my love for Cordelia to watch this season as it seems she's completely forgotten and never mentioned. Once I do that, I can say that I do enjoy the last half of the season after Fred dies. I will also say anything is better than S4.

6. What did you think of the romance this season? I didn't see any authentic romance in this season. Fred suddenly realizing she had feelings for Wesley came way out of left field and was a bit jarring and obviously only there so that they would be in love when she died to provide more drama. I didn't care for Angel/Nina either. It was obvious Angel just wanted to get laid. My feelings for them are just ambigious. Lindsey/Eve were one truely annoying team.

7. How did you feel about Fred's death and the rise of Illyria? Fred's death was way over the top. That scene where everyone comes together and Spike is like 'not this girl, not today.' I just have to roll my eyes. You could tell Joss really worshipped Fred. That being sad, I was estatic with the character of Illyria and the real dynamic she brought to Wes's character at the end of the series. I loved watching Wesley accept that Fred was dead and gone, but still try and understand this thing that had the ability to look and speak just like her.

8. Did you feel Not to Fade Away was a good ending to Angel? It was the best they could do. Was it the ending I would have wanted? No.

9. How did you feel about the whole, “who's Connor?” set up? It was okay, I guess.

10. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? I would have Cordy around, because she had been there from the start of BtVS. It was not only insulting to Cordy fans, but also the character Cordy, to have someone grow from the place she had and keep her around for 6 years and then not allow her to finish the series. I would have someone more tolerable play Eve, and I'm not sure if I would've kept Spike around either. Definitely different cases/stories in the beginning of the series.

[~*Echo*~]

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) 3. What do you think this season would have been like Cordy had been there the whole time? I think it would have been very different. I think we would've seen a much different side to Cordy and we would've gotten to see her dealing with the reprecussions of S4 (which we never did and I always found irritating, but what can you do when she's only in one episode).

That's a good point. I would have liked to see Cordy deal with the aftermath of the events of season 4. As much as I have a hard time seeing her fit into season 5 as it happened on screen, I've never bought the idea that the writers couldn't come up with have anywhere to go with Cordy after season 4. Come on, she thought she was ascending to a higher plane, and instead was possessed by a force that used her body to betray her friends, have sex with the son of her best friend (and sometime love interest), get pregnant, plunge the world into permanent midnight, kill numerous people in cold blood, and turn everyone on earth into Jasmine-worshipping automatons. And you're telling me that after all of that, there's nowhere that you can think of for Cordy's character to go now that she has to deal with all of this?

7. How did you feel about Fred's death and the rise of Illyria? Fred's death was way over the top. That scene where everyone comes together and Spike is like 'not this girl, not today.' I just have to roll my eyes. You could tell Joss really worshipped Fred.

ITA with this. I generally like Joss's writing, but some of the lines in AHitW were cringeworthy, as were her drawn out death scenes. I think the whole episode would have felt a lot sadder and more tragic to me if it had been a bit less over the top.

[kitsune]

Originally Posted by ~*Echo*~ (View Post) And you're telling me that after all of that, there's nowhere that you can think of for Cordy's character to go now that she has to deal with all of this?

Exactly. This is why I have trouble enjoying YW. Cordy is strong, but she went through so much (and admitted to remembering all of it), and even strong characters would not be able to just get over it. I'm sure it was just her imminent death that pushed her to get past it, but I think the character was entitled to a more justified ending, in the sense that I feel like she never finished her story. To say she didn't have anything left to give, but Spike and Harmony did was ridiculous.

I think the whole episode would have felt a lot sadder and more tragic to me if it had been a bit less over the top.

Yep. Joss is terrific at writing fast, sudden deaths (Jenny, Angel, Joyce, Buffy, Doyle), and I'd recommend him keeping it that way. I guess he really just felt Fred deserved an entire episode devoted to how much everyone loved and missed her, even though she'd only been around for two years.

[fresley4ever]

Can we please have a discussion without dragging in our Anti Fred. If you want to bash her it belongs in the Anti Fred page. Thank you.

[lunas_borednow]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?
Favorites: Life of the Party, Lineage, You're Welcome, Smiletime, Hole in the World, Origin, Timebomb, and Not to Fade Away.

Least Favorite: The Girl in Question, other then the Illyria Wesley stuff this episode was bad and really ill placed, it would have been acceptable if it had happened before You're Welcome and Angel's decision to fake going dark but as a third to last episode... it falls under the WTF... category.

2. How did you feel about bringing in Spike? I it. Spike makes Angel fun with their fighting...
3. What do you think this season would have been like Cordy had been there the whole time? I'm really not sure.
4. Did you like Cordy and Connors parts? I did. I felt they both got really amazing episodes this season even if it wasn't much... I finally liked Connor!
5. What do you think of the season as a whole? I really loved it. It was one of my favorites if not my favorite... all the episodes were really well formed.
6. What did you think of the romance this season? I really enjoyed them. I loved watching Fred's eyes open up to just how much Wesley loved her in Lineage and her subtle attempts to get his attention that she was interested until getting desperate in Smiletime. Also Wesley's unabashed death glares at Knox were priceless. Angel/Nina didn't bug me, I didn't think it was true love but it was an okay transition relationship for him.
7. How did you feel about Fred's death and the rise of Illyria? It was so sad! But I live in the land of Fredllyria and the visuals of it all were wonderful.
8. Did you feel Not to Fade Away was a good ending to Angel? I thought it was... amazing. One of the best ends to a TV show I'd ever seen. I laughed and cried and at the end I love thinking about that blaze of glory.
9. How did you feel about the whole, “who's Connor?” set up? Frustrated. I wanted to know what the characters thought happened!
10. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? I would have laid more clues and had the black thorn running as a thread throughout the season. I liked the single episode formates but a strong thread never really puts any new viewers that off.

[kitsune]

Originally Posted by fresley4ever (View Post) Can we please have a discussion without dragging in our Anti Fred. If you want to bash her it belongs in the Anti Fred page. Thank you.

We're not bashing her. This is a season discussion; I was asked what her thoughts were on her death and I thought it was melodramatic and over the top. I never said one bad thing about her character.

[lunas_borednow]

However with the comment about Joss worshiping Fred can you see how one could read it as rather anti-Fred?

[fresley4ever]

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) We're not bashing her. This is a season discussion; I was asked what her thoughts were on her death and I thought it was melodramatic and over the top. I never said one bad thing about her character.

I understand that is is a discussion board but I personally feel offended when I have to read about it. I personally don't want to see those kind of comments. If I did I would go to the Anti page. I am not trying to be rude. I just feel like if I feel offended that I shouldn't have to put up with it. So I am asking politely please can you stop. I have already had to leave two threads because I felt unwanted I don't want to have to leave anymore.

[kitsune]

However with the comment about Joss worshiping Fred can you see how one could read it as rather anti-Fred?

No, I don't consider it to be Anti-Fred. If you feel differently with my statement, you are welcome to refute.

I've seen plenty of episode discussion that bashes the Gunn/Fred relationship and I don't get offended. I'm sorry if you feel unwanted fresley4ever, but I should be able to state my thoughts on a character death or the way a character is used in a season discussion just like everyone else. You are welcome to state your opinion, just as I am mine. My comment was never meant to offend anyone and I'm sorry if it did, but it's just how I feel.

[fresley4ever]

Very well. I respect your opinion.