[kitsune]

Originally Posted by fresley4ever (View Post) Angel being an a hole.

When was Angel being ******* in S3?

I think S3 all of the characters and relationships were truely built and stood out the best as character development in the series (aside from S2). I thought his reaction to Wesley's kidnapping was rational and realistic. The changes the characters go through during that season are my favorite. Fred getting out of the cave and adjusting to life, Angel feeling like he's part of the world when his son is born, Cordelia choosing to become part-demon to keep fighting the good fight, Wesley struggling with the decision he had to make and being alienated from the group, and Gunn deciding he'd rather stay with Angel than go back to his street ways.

S4 dealt a lot with the consequences of S3 (Cordy becoming demon, Angel falling love with her, Connor always choosing darkness, Wesley trying to find what his purpose was), but it failed because we were left with nothing new by the end of the season. This season had such an opportunity to be the most brilliant one of all. Nobody changed, aside from Fred maybe. Everyone was just depressed, and the show has never been about that for me. The gang suffers hard times but in the end they always overcome it. Connor succombed to his darkness, Cordy was stuck in a coma for half the season, Wesley in his persistent ways with Fred never changes. All the characters were irritating to me and most of the time, not the way I remember them from previous seasons. I mean Cordy is sequestered away in her bedroom for days, getting fat and sleeping with Angel's son, but this is all normal. O-kay.

This season was just incredibly frustrating. It was really the end of the show for me.

[strawberrypie]

Originally Posted by fresley4ever strawberrypie

Originally Posted by lunas_borednow (View Post) I wouldn't have written in Cordy's pregnancy...

Yeah, I agree. And I still think they could've found a way to make it work, maybe not have her in a few episodes while she was having her baby. She went right back to work after that, anyway. I guess we'll never really know what the atmosphere was like between her and the writers.

[fresley4ever]

What I didn't understand was in S3 when Angel boasts so much about forgiveness, why he absolutely refused to forgive Wesley and tried to kill him. That really upset me and that was why I thought he was an a hole. Maybe nobody agrees with me. However I am extremely understanding of Wesley's character. I just don't feel he deserved to be abandoned by everyone. Especially when they knew why he did it. He was tricked and everyone knew he had been. It just wasn't fair.

[lunas_borednow]

That was defiantly the hight of hypocritical Angel...

[fresley4ever]

I agree. Wesley had always forgiven him when he went off and did something stupid to his friends. I don't understand why Wesley had to be treated differently.

[kitsune]

Originally Posted by fresley4ever (View Post) What I didn't understand was in S3 when Angel boasts so much about forgiveness, why he absolutely refused to forgive Wesley and tried to kill him.

But you have to understand that it was Angel's son. To Angel something like that was unforgiveable. It had just happened and he had no one to blame but Wesley. Us, as observers, were horrified with his reaction, but being duped by someone you consider a trusted and loyal friend, and losing your son because of it could not have been easy. There was no way Wesley could've just walked into the office the next day and had a sit down with Angel and say, "I'm sorry."

Sometimes forgiveness takes time.

And while I do think Angel can be an ******* I can't see him doing anything other than what he did. Violence is in his nature and he lost the one thing he could never have, it didn't matter if Wesley had been tricked into believing the prophecy. Wesley made that decision to take Connor and Angel lost him because of that decision. There's a quote later in the season, "You do what you want to get what you want - to hell with the consequences." and that statement has always been true to Angel and that is the only real mistake that I find him repeating over and over.

However I am extremely understanding of Wesley's character. I just don't feel he deserved to be abandoned by everyone.

So am I. And everyone is the key word here. Cordelia should've known better than to shut Wesley out. She knew better than anyone that Wesley had nobody but AI. But by this time it was all "Angel's feeling are the only ones I care about."

[fresley4ever]

They dropped Cordelia out of character in the season and that made me really sad. She should have been there for Wesley that is what she would have done.

I can understand the son thing but I did feel that Angel went a little over the top. I also think Wesley would have apologized if he could.

[lunas_borednow]

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) But you have to understand that it was Angel's son. To Angel something like that was unforgiveable. It had just happened and he had no one to blame but Wesley.

And it was still an thing to do. My Mother whose ambition in life was to be a mom, said that it was unforgivable what Angel did. He just needed someone to blame, Wesley may have been involved but he didn't hand the baby over to his enemy, he got his throat slit, even if he had just been taking the baby for the night it could have happened the same way, Angel made choices after that that were more involved in where Connor ended up. Angel was being a hypocritical ... it may have fit with his character, but it doesn't mean it isn't an unbelievably cruel thing to do...

[I_Love_JennaJameson]

So funny, cause if we are using moms here, mine said she completely understood what Angel did, and if it had been her child she would have done the same thing.

IMO What Wes did was unforgivable.

Everyone always goes on about Wes being shut out for a year. Boo Hoo. Conner's ENTIRE life was ruined thanks to Wesley.

[kitsune]

Originally Posted by I_Love_JennaJameson (View Post) So funny, cause if we are using moms here, mine said she completely understood what Angel did, and if it had been her child she would have done the same thing.

I know. I mean put yourself in that situation. If I lost my child because of a trusted friend I would be insane with grief. I'm not saying I condone Angel's behavoir, but I certainly understand it and can't fault him for it.

Everyone always goes on about Wes being shut out for a year. Boo Hoo. Conner's ENTIRE life was ruined thanks to Wesley.

Right? I mean I get that he didn't know what he was doing and the baby was high-jacked from him, but if he had told Angel what was going on, Angel never would have lost him. We can go on and on about whose fault it really was, but in the end Angel had a trusted friend with critical information that took his baby and lost it. No matter what the circumstance, Wesley was at fault.

[fresley4ever]

I really hate that they killed off Lilah. I liked her as a character I wish she could have stayed in the show.

[I_Love_JennaJameson]

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) I know. I mean put yourself in that situation. If I lost my child because of a trusted friend I would be insane with grief. I'm not saying I condone Angel's behavoir, but I certainly understand it and can't fault him for it.

ITA.

I mean I wouldn't even forgive a friend of mean if they somehow got my dog hurt.

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) Right? I mean I get that he didn't know what he was doing and the baby was high-jacked from him, but if he had told Angel what was going on, Angel never would have lost him. We can go on and on about whose fault it really was, but in the end Angel had a trusted friend with critical information that took his baby and lost it. No matter what the circumstance, Wesley was at fault.

Thank you, exactly.

And a year of being froze out and fracking Lilah has gotta be 10000x times better then 16 years in a hell dimension or loosing the only child you'd ever have.

Yet, I only ever hear about "Poor Wesley" or "Poor Angel!" I never hear "Poor Conner" I don't even like the kid, but he got the worst of it.

[kitsune]

I really hate that they killed off Lilah. I liked her as a character I wish she could have stayed in the show.

Me too. She was a lot of fun.

Yet, I only ever hear about "Poor Wesley" or "Poor Angel!" I never hear "Poor Conner" I don't even like the kid, but he got the worst of it.

Too true!

[lunas_borednow]

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) Right? I mean I get that he didn't know what he was doing and the baby was high-jacked from him, but if he had told Angel what was going on, Angel never would have lost him. We can go on and on about whose fault it really was, but in the end Angel had a trusted friend with critical information that took his baby and lost it. No matter what the circumstance, Wesley was at fault.

Can we really know that? It's possible, in fact probable given Sajun's, who I would say is the actual being at fault, obsession that Connor was screwed no matter what Wesley did.

[I_Love_JennaJameson]

Yes, but Wes was the pawn that Sajun needed for his plan to succeed, he didn't take away Wesley's freewill. Wesley's choices are what could have changed the out come.