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Old 08-30-2020, 05:02 PM
  #241
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Oh I think Doyle enjoyed that hug more than he was letting on!
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Old 09-05-2020, 04:26 PM
  #242
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Not sure on that. lol
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Old 09-06-2020, 02:51 PM
  #243
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Either way, I hope they made the most of it, because Angel wasn't going to ever hug them again
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Old 09-06-2020, 04:38 PM
  #244
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Not Doyle he doesn't But Cordy gets a couple more hugs in 'Birthday' and 'you're welcome' ... though it seems she does have to be waking up from a near death experience to get one.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:25 PM
  #245
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These 3 just didn't have enough time.
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Old 09-08-2020, 06:34 AM
  #246
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No - it seems so sad that Buffy gets to keep her core original crew all the way through but Angel's only lasts 9 episodes and Angel is the only original cast member in the finale (and Lindsay - who is the only other character to appear in both City Of and Not Fade Away). It would have been so wonderful to get more development of them as a family. Doyle and Angel had such a special bond and Cordy's life becomes so hard once she has the visions, it would have been really good to see how she developed and grew up without that added burden. And just think ... s4 could have included a happy, normal pregnancy instead of a mystical, life ending one. Now THAT would have been ground breaking territory for Angel - never has there been a show that used mystical pregnancies so often in such a short space of time and to kill so many female characters.
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Old 09-10-2020, 07:19 AM
  #247
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^ Well with Buffy it's more complicated because a lot of backstage stuff interfered with the show when it came to Gleen (RIP) and Charisma. That's why the core didn't remain unfountely....


If the backstage stuff didn't happen, I am curious as to what would've happened over time with these 3. The chemistry they had as friends was wonderful to watch.
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:04 PM
  #248
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It was, I think they would have been close, like family, for the whole duration of the show. There are some things that happened, like Angel firing everyone in season 2, that I kind of think couldn't happen if Doyle had been there, but if that was what the writers wanted, then it would have had to... so those kinds of things would have been hard to watch
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:15 AM
  #249
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I always thought Angel would never have fired Doyle, but then he fires them all to protect them from the dark place he's going to so ... maybe he would have? If he didn't fire Doyle then that would mean he cared less about protecting him than the others - and the reason I think he wouldn't fire him is because he cared about him more so ... I go round in circles on that one. I got round it in my rewrite by having Doyle conveniently elsewhere at the time, so it was never really clear if he was fired or not, I think the writers might have got round it that way too. Ambiguity solves a lot of problems, and then it keeps Doyle as that bridge between Cordy and Angel that he always was - just spanning a wider gap.
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:43 PM
  #250
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It is complicated because I feel so many storylines would've happened completely different if Doyle stayed....
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Old 09-20-2020, 05:55 AM
  #251
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it's tricky - because there is the balance between, if it were real life then it would be different with another person there, and the fact that the writers had a story they wanted to tell and would tell it regardless.

I remember reading an interview with one of the writers and them saying they didn't really have a long term (or even short term) plan with Angel, so each season they just broke him down to see what happened. If they stuck with that, he would still need to fire all his staff and hunt down Darla; Connor would still need to be kidnapped etc.

The big difference would be Cordelia not having the visions, so it would be Doyle strapped to the bed in to Shanshu in LA, Doyle who got sucked into Pylea and made the ruler, It would have been Doyle getting attacked in That Vision Thing though they might have changed what Billy's powers were as it's not so resonant and thematic if a man was tortured to free him. I'm not sure what they would have done with Birthday - but that would have had to be completely different and then season 4 would be where the big changes happened.

I don't think they would have gone down the higher power route (it's just not believable on Doyle who has the visions in order to atone) but Tim Minear always wanted Doyle to come back as a villain, so probably Doyle would have been possessed for a large chunk of that season - in Cordy's place. If the original plan was for Cordelia to just be the big bad herself (which it was) they might have kept it the same and just had Doyle be the big bad all the way through. Or - with Charisma's real life pregnancy - they might have switched to Jasmine and had him pass the possession along.

Then I think they would either have both been kept on for season 5 or both been written out. If there was no place left for the visions in the show in season 5 (as they say there wasn't) than that means no place left for Doyle. I can't think what positions he and Cordy would hold at Wolfram and Hart, certainly Cordy wouldn't agree to go there (it's harder to say with Doyle, because we only have 9 episodes at the beginning of s1 to base his end of s4 behaviour on with no knowing what might have happened to change him in between).

But ultimately I think all the big story beats would land the same, how they got there might change a bit, there would be some different scenes - but all the big stuff that happened would still happen because that is what the writers wanted to show.
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Old 09-20-2020, 12:32 PM
  #252
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Yeah, it's hard to judge really because there's what we think is in character, but then there's what the writers want to happen, which sometimes means the character stuff would go out the window

The idea of Cordelia never having the visions is so strange, I wonder what she would have been like without them
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Old 09-20-2020, 01:54 PM
  #253
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I don't think season 1 or 2 Cordy would have been that different at all. She's still blunt and money orientated, her softer edges would just be a result of growing up and experiences helping people and being poor herself rather than because of the visions (she'd already come such a long way from Buffy s1, it would make sense for her to continue on the same trajectory - as it would just be her maturing.)

The difference - if it happened - would be in later season three when they make her a bit too saintly. But if they still wanted to push the CAngel relationship she might still end up that way. And then in season 4 we would get actual Cordelia instead of just the terrible awful thing that we did get... though the flip side of that might be terrible awful Doyle.

At least he would have been less likely to be written to have sex with Angel's son.
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:40 PM
  #254
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I don't think Doyle would've been strapped to the bed with the visions because it was always established that Doyle could handle the visions better than Cordy because he was part demon. A human having the visions is like torture... they aren't suppose to have them.

So many episodes and stories would've been completely different.
Although some story arcs would've still happened the same.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:03 AM
  #255
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But they were still painful, and they would have been painful and constant. He wouldn't have been able to get up, he would have been thrashing around, if they had hit him out in public someone would call an ambulance for him and the hospital would deal with him the same as they did with Cordy. They wouldn't do the permanent damage that they did to Cordelia, but the short term effects would be the same -the migraines, the exhaustion, the mental overload, the emotional pain and misery ...

Whilst Doyle was never meant to die in episode 9, I think the original idea of him was he wouldn't last forever. I wonder if he would actually have been killed off under those visions in to Shanshu in LA (or that might have been the idea, had he made it that far I think he would have proved too popular a character for them actually kill off - a bit like Spike was supposed to be killed midway through Buffy season 2)

I don't think that much would have been different at all, ultimately the writers have a story they want to tell and will tell it the way they want. Doyle is only a supporting character, they would still want Angel to do all the stuff he does and Doyle would be there to facilitate that, not change it.
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