'Tos

Yup. Bright's definitely the best candidate to be more actively involved with religion. I could even see it with what we've got in our S5, with him being in a funk over not being able to find a suitable direction at first, and then not having Hannah to fall back on when he does get down on himself. He has to fall back on something, he always has. I guess he'll end up going to his parents and grandmother as we've worked them into his story. Anyway, I can definitely see him choosing to be more religious at some point. It might not happen until he gets married, or even has a child. Who knows.

I also wonder to what extent he's thinking about spirituality or religion by himself since breaking up with Hannah? Without her being there to bring it up, I wonder if he's still thinking about those issues, or if he'll have to get back with Hannah to give it anymore thought.

Hmm. Interesting question. I wonder if it would be handled like Jack & Bobby dealt with a non-actively-religious parent and a child (well, teen) interested in religion, which was giving the child options. Like, going to different churches, presenting him/her opportunities to find out about different religions and such. That's the way I see Amy dealing with it, anyway. Ephram, I could see him focusing on Judaism. He doesn't have anywhere near the same connection to Judaism that Delia does because of Julia, but maybe he would as he gets older, and there's a child interested in his background?

I tend to ramble in this thread for some reason, hee.

Thief Of Love

Well, per "Pro Choice," he actually took something away from his college philosophy class -- for Bright, that has to indicate some sort of interest in matters bigger than him. I could see him, with the place he was at the end of S4, and where we're taking him in S5, taking a bit of a further interest in these questions. Even if it's just a matter of grabbing on to something hopeful when much around him is falling apart, particularly when it's of his own doing in certain cases. Forgiveness, redemption, atonement, all that.

Good question on the Amy/Ephram front, Betty. This is a case where I actually wonder which direction things would go -- would they remain their non-religious/non-practicing selves but raise independently-minded children, or would one of them become more concerned with religion after a child's arrival, as is sometimes the case (happened to my mother when I was born), or...something else entirely? It would be interesting if Amy or Ephram realized that Catholicism or Judaism mattered more to them then they previously thought after a kid entered the picture. Which could actually potentially generate some interesting conflict.

The subject just seems to lend itself to that. For some reason, heh.

Thief Of Love

Duplicate. Bah. I'm not sure why this only ever seems to happen to me.

'Tos

I've got a couple questions, but I feel like I'm jumping around to a bunch of different topics, hee. So, I'll ask the one that's related to Bright thinking about religious issues more: to what extent does Hannah need him to do this? Does she at all, or is she fine with him being like he is in S4 when it comes to the topic, just more understanding and respectful?

jediwands

Somehow I want to say they would not exclusively introduce one or the other, maybe both, but in a non-practicing kind of way. The exposure of learning about them since it comes from both of their families will be introduced in a sort of Intro 101 type of course. However, if they would choose one to not only teach, but practice, say, Judaism... I wonder how this would impact Harold? To many, Catholicism and Judaism are considered polar opposites so would Harold mind if his grandchildren were raised Jewish?

'Tos

Hmm. Good question. I definitely see Judaism as the biggest possibility for them considering who Ephram is. I'm not really sure what Harold would think. Part of me thinks that he'd be fine with it considering that he's allowed Amy and Bright to do what they wanted to do in terms of religion. At the same time, though, they were brought up Catholic, so they were at least introduced to it...hmm. Yeah, I'm not really sure. I'll wait to hear what others thinks (including you, Michelle), and then I'll just agree with the thought I like best.

everwoodfan52

It is the custom in the Jewish religion...I believe...for the children to be raised in the religion of the Mother. I'm sure that's not always the case. Amy (the mom) is Catholic...so it's possible that their kids will be raised Catholic. On the other hand. Amy is not a strict practicing Catholic....so..in respect to Ephram's mom....she may be willing to raise their children in the Jewish religion.
Harold (being Harold) will make "cracks". I believe though, that deep down. he would be okay with it. He will be happy to see how content his daughter is and just be glad that his grandchildren are in a loving home being taught good values in an organized religion (no matter what it is). Of course, this is Harold, and I may be attributing to him too much common sense.

jediwands

Interesting. I never knew that!

Yeah, I believe as long as Harold's grandchildren are raised in a loving environment and taught good values like you said, Betty, I think overall he would be fine with it. Unless maybe he would want both religions in play possibly? Or he would suggest it? Forgive me if it was already discussed but I wonder what Ephram/Amy would do whenever getting married? Both ceremonies?

Thief Of Love

Traditionally, yes. This site gives some interesting basis for that. (I've also heard that, practically speaking, this idea of matrilineal descent was connected with the difficulty of ascertaining paternity in situations of ancient warfare, i.e. rape and pillaging by various Gentile empires.) That being said, neither seems much for tradition, and Reform Judaism, at least, doesn't require the child of a non-Jewish mother to convert as the Orthodox and Conservative branches do, so that would be an option if this is really how the kid(s) would be raised. If he or she chose Judaism on his or her own, however, without having been raised in the faith, he/she would still be required to convert by the terms of all three major forms of Judaism (I know nothing about Reconstructionist, though).

Ceremony...I don't know. Part of me sort of just sees them doing the civil ceremony thing. Not just going down to the courthouse, exactly, but I can't picture them with a clergyman in front of them, either, for some reason. But I spend very little time thinking about weddings anyway, so I'm useless on this one.

'Tos, I'm mulling the Hannah question, but I'm falling a bit on the side of...well, she loves him as he is, but if they're going to build to a point of spending their lives together, there's going to need to be a little more of an understanding on his part.

'Tos

I'm not too great on wedding questions either, heh, but I do think, at least where the characters are right now, an Ephram/Amy wedding ceremony wouldn't be very religious either way. I basically see them having the typical TV wedding, with a few Jewish traditions and Catholic ones thrown in together. If that's..even possible. I don't even know. If not, then I just see it as the typical TV wedding without anything thrown in.

I think you and Betty would be better off with this question for some reason, hee. You two are definitely better at thinking of the more romantic moments for Ephram and Amy.

everwoodfan52

Ephram and Amy's wedding: I honestly believe that they would decide to have a religious ceremony. Ephram will want to honor his mom and Amy will want to be respectful to her parents. I've been to a couple of joint wedding ceremonies (Priest and Rabbi). There could be a hupa(that little tent on sticks). There wouldn't be a mass....but both clergymen would speak and give their blessing. The ceremony would be a little generic...but with religious overtones.
Of course...at the reception...there would be the breaking of the glass and some kosher wine (at Amy's request).


Hannah and Bright: I believe that Hannah will expect Bright to practice religion with her and raise their children in an organized Christian religion. It's too important to Hannah...it's who she is. Her celibacy was a huge part of their courtship. At this point..Bright will be so happy that Hannah forgave him that he would do anything to please her. He just might find out that he enjoys it.

Thief Of Love

Something just hit me while reading a fascinating thread about religion in television on another board: Bright's dream school was Notre Dame. Yeah, he was all about the football, but isn't it rather interesting that said dream school is also famously Catholic? There are other good football schools, but something steered him to the denominational one.

Taryn74

Huh, that is interesting Thief. I never thought about that.

I'm having trouble right now remembering, what denomination was Hannah? Wasn't she Episcopal or something? I'm not overly familiar with all of their doctrine, if it leans more toward Catholicism or the Protestant faith.

I definitely think Hannah would want any kids she and Bright may have raised in church, but I don't think she would "force" Bright to attend with her every week. But I could see him going along anyway just because he enjoys being with her, especially if they were able to find a church that wasn't uptight and boring. *grin*

I like that thought. I think Amy would be just as insistent as Ephram, if not more so, that there be some Jewish traditions in their wedding. I would love to see how they incorporate everything. A couple at our church a few years ago had a traditional Jewish wedding (even though we're a non-denominational church), I wish I had been able to attend. I think it would be way cool.

Thief Of Love

Hannah mentioned being Episcopal on her date with Nick in "Reckoning." Though I'm Lutheran, from my understanding of the denomination, it's closer to Catholicism than many other Protestant denominations; the church is said to follow the "middle way" between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I wonder why they chose that denomination specifically? It's one of the more socially liberal (though not quite as much as some of the others) and doesn't offer anything in the way of an explanation for Hannah's particular beliefs (not that a denomination's official stances = individual worshiper's beliefs; I disagree with the Evangelical Lutheran church on a number of things) and, at least a couple of decades ago, only makes up about 2% of the Minnesota population. Though I must admit that the writing for Hannah as a religious character often confused me...

More on that later when I have a bit more time to rant about "Fallout" and "Enjoy the Ride," heh.

jediwands

I agree that Amy and Ephram would have a religious ceremony including both religions but more for the traditional aspect of it. I can also see Amy getting very caught up in a big wedding, essentially wanting to celebrate their love in front of all of their friends and family. I don't think Ephram would really care either way though as always, he would be fully attentive to Amy's wants and desires.

I think that is very interesting how Bright would chose the famous, very Catholic, Notre Dame for a possible college destination, too. Great point.

I am Catholic (well I was baptized and not necessarily a true Catholic in practice) and while I do not know much about Episcopalians... oh first off, yes I think this is what Hannah was. I am not absolutely sure but I think so. Back from rambling though that usually only lasts for a second... I do not know a lot about this faith but I do know, or I think I know, that it is very close to Catholicism so it is more with Catholic and less with Protestant. I think... I hope I didn't just make that up.