[secretk]

Welcome to OT2 Thread #104!


This is the second OT thread that focuses on shows, movies, music we love since Everwood ended.

This thread is about discussing shows, movies, and music. Bring over your opinions on latest episodes, discuss characters and storylines, movies you're watching, music you're listening to.

Shows Everwood members watch:

Michelle: Chesapeake Shores, Supergirl, The Flash, Riverdale, The 100

Betty: (past and present)
Past: ( Everwood, Friday Night Lights, Gilmore Girls, OTH, Parenthood) Present: Pretty Little Liars, Blue Bloods, The Blacklist, Supergirl, The 100, Grace & Frankie, Chesapeake Shores, Graham Norton Show, This Is Us, The Killing

Ashley (AppleBehry22):
Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill, Nip/Tuck, Roswell, Reba, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Lost

dawnie@:
Gilmore Girls, Lost, One Tree Hill, 24 ,Hell's Kitchen2

Alan (The Crow):
Once Upon a Time, Elementary, NCIS: LA, Scorpion, Gotham, Lucifer, Supergirl, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Flash, Modern Family, blackish, Blindspot, Chicago PD, Lethal Weapon, Arrow, The 100, Rosewood, Pitch, Superstore, The Good Place, The Blacklist, MacGyver, Hawaii Five-0, Teen Wolf, Scream, Grimm, Baby Daddy, Stitchers, The Good Witch, Chesapeake Shores, Wynonna Earp, Mr Robot, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, The Originals, iZombie, Riverdale, APB

Tos':
Mad Men, Dexter, Fringe, Chuck, Castle, Psych, Parks & Recreation, Community, Modern Family, How I Met Your Mother, Futurama, Being Human, White Collar, Louie, New Girl, Up All Night, Revenge, Person of Interest

Coffee:
Watch: Prison Break, Supernatural, House, Gilmore Girls
Want to watch but always miss it: Bones, Grey's Anatomy, Veronica Mars
Future Shows, I'm planning on watching: Jericho, Heroes..

own worst enemy:
Desperate Housewives, Brothers & Sisters, True Blood, Dexter, Weeds, Big Love, How I Met Your Mother, The Big Bang Theory, One Tree Hill, Gossip Girl, 90210, Smallville, Scrubs, Better Off Ted, Grey's Anatomy, Lost, Private Practice, Ugly Betty, The Office, 30 Rock, Top Chef, So You Think You Can Dance, The Hills, My Life on the D List, American Idol, Dollhouse, Mad Men, Nip/Tuck, Fringe
New shows: Melrose Place, The Beautiful Life, The Vampire Diaries, Flash Forward, Bored to Death, Glee

MrsBrown: The Office, Lost, Friday Night Lights, Brothers and Sisters, Battlestar Galactica

ShadowMagist: How I Met Your Mother, Greek, Smallville, Supernatural, Desperate Housewives, Brothers and Sisters, Glee, Vampire Diaries, It's Always Raining In Philadelphia.

Thief Of Love: Mad Men, Psych, Gilmore Girls, The Office, Parks & Recreation

Shelby (Cowgirl08): Chuck, Friday Night Lights, 90210, One Tree Hill, Greek, Secret Life of the American Teenager, Make it or Break it, White Collar

Rolfi Cole: Outsourced, Modern Family, Castle, Chuck, Psych, The Mentalist, TVD, Community, House, Ghost Whisperer, Smallville, Supernatural

ForVanAngel: LOST, Gilmore Girls, Six Feet Under, Everwood, Friday Night Lights, The Wire, Dexter, Dawson’s Creek, Roswell, Seinfeld, Malcolm In The Middle, Scrubs, Breaking Bad, Parenthood, Home Improvement, Rescue Me, Mad Men, My So-Called Life, Parks and Recreation, Brothers & Sisters, Switched At Birth, Eli Stone, American Dreams, Community, Skins UK, The Big Bang Theory, One Tree Hill, The Shield, Alias, Freaks and Geeks, Party Of Five, Ally McBeal, Death Note, Lizzie McGuire, That ‘70s Show, The Middle, The L.A. Complex, The Hour, The Wonder Years, Wilfred US.

Blue Valentine: Modern family, Brothers and Sisters, Fringe, How I Met Your Mother, The Vampire Diaries, 90210, Nikita, One Tree Hill,
Favorite Shows: Everwood, Joan Of Arcadia.

Patricia: Law & Order: SVU, Nashville, Supernatural, One Tree Hill, Everwood, Gilmore Girls, Bones, Chasing Life, Castle, Pretty Little Liars, How To Get Away With Murder, Extreme Weight Loss, Girl Meets World, Grey's Anatomy, Wahlburgers.

LemonyPie: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Frasier, Dawson's Creek, Revenge, Suburgatory, Hart of Dixie, The Middle, Modern Family, Dancing with the Stars, Community, Dexter, Against the Wall

Shu/ds44: Suits, Flash, Pitch, Chesapeake Shores, Empire, This is Us, Animal Kingdom, Queen Sugar, JTV, The Originals, Riverdale

Louisa C: Watched in full or almost: The OC, Veronica Mars, Gilmore Girls, Desperate Housewives, Monk, Medium, Parenthood, The Big Bang Theory, Everwood, Being Erica, Grey's Anatomy, Castle...

Purchased, but not yet started or only a few episodes/1st Season watched: Friday Night Lights, Drop Dead Diva, The Closer, Gossip Girl, Once Upon A Time, The Killing, New Girl, My Name Is Earl, Fame, Parks & Recreation, In Treatment, Damages, The Good Wife, Fringe, White Collar, How I met Your Mother, Dexter, Game Of Thrones, Pretty Little Liars, Smash, Lie To Me, Dawson's Creek, The Mentalist...

Alwayshappy: Shows that ended :
Gilmore Girls ( which is my absolute favorite EVER ), Charmed, Everwood, One Tree Hill, Dawson's Creek, The OC, Damages, The Closer, Desperate Housewives, Brothers & Sisters, Lost, Fringe ( although I'm not up to date yet ), Medium, Ghost Whisperer, Ally McBeal, Private Practice, Veronica Mars, In Treatment, Roswell & Sex and the City
Shows that are still airing :
The Good Wife, Grey's Anatomy ( those 2 are my favorite 2 shows on the air right now ), Revenge, Bones ( not up to date yet - I'm at the end of S6 ), Once Upon a Time ( not up to date-watching season 1 for first time ), Vampire Diaries, Criminal Minds, Big Bang Theory, How I Met Your Mother, Community, The Killing USA, Downton Abbey, Parenthood ( not up to date yet ), Bunheads, Switched at Birth ( not up to date ), Californication, True Blood, Suits ( not up to date ), Scandal ( not up to date ), Major Crimes ( not up to date ), Homeland & White Collar.

Jamie: Present: New Girl,Chicago PD, Suits, Better Call Saul, Scandal, Awkward, Undateable, Girls Past: (in addition to our Everwood of course), Breaking Bad, Revenge, Parenthood
One Tree Hill, Gossip Girl, Dawson's Creek, The Office, The O.C., Veronica Mars, Gilmore Girls

[secretk]

Last page of the previous thread:

http://www.fanforum.com/f104/ot2-thr...2/index20.html

[everwoodfan52]

Thanks so much for this, Koni!!

[jediwands]

Thanks, Koni!

I debated on starting a new one, then decided to babble instead. I will delete my other post and post it right here now:

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Well yeah they were the only thing I enjoyed in Season 5 . I am not sure if this was realistic, but it was enjoyable in otherwise bad season for sure.

Seriously, you have to grab onto something and at least we got this. I wonder if Mark didn't know that we'd get a season 5 or something? It seems like he put tons of effort into the season 4 finale (I think that's why it was so good and felt like it easily could have been a series finale) but then a season 5 happened so the direction was a bit off and storylines were outlandish (nanny) and too dark.

The same thing happened to Dawson's Creek... the season finale of 4 was super good, the right pairings were together, it worked and tied things up nicely. Apparently TPTB were about 95% sure the series was done and season 5 was not happening... but then it did... season 5 is hands down the worst season of the series by far and that's saying something because the show as a rule sucked post season 2, lol.

She should have thought about Nathan, but she did not. I believe that this where we see the difference between Karen and Deb. They were on the two ends of the spectrum. Karen put so much Lucas on the first place that Lucas had to basically force her to go to Italy and do something for herself. Deb used her work as an excuse to be out of the house leaving Nathan to Dan and forcing him to divorce his parents. Did you guys agree with this btw? I am the person to say that it depends on the parents and not all times such act is needed, but in this case it was. I mean take Ephram/Andy as example. They sure did not get along, but I would not say that it would have been good if Ephram had emancipated himself. With Nathan I actually think that this divorce did him good. I do not condone marriage at 16 years of age and I still believe that they were too young to marry, but I do believe that Haley's appearance in Nathan's life saved him.Of course they had issues and problems, but we have no guarantee what would have happened with Nathan if he had continued to be subject of Dan's influence. My take is it wouldn't have ended up well.

I completely agree with you. I actually like that Nathan got legally separated from his parents. I think he would continue to sink deeper and deeper if he was forced to live another second with either of them. I also believe Haley saved him. It's funny because usually I can't stand the typical storyline of a bad boy meeting a good girl and the girl having such a great influence on him that he changes. As a rule, I don't like this but it worked for Naley big time. I bought the storyline and cheered for Nathan, Haley and Naley.

Ideally, Nathan living with Keith would have been a great solution of course over Nathan living alone and marrying Haley so young. It would have made for some great storytelling too seeing Nathan and his uncle finally grow close and Keith's influence would have worked magic on Nathan. Then again, Dan would have probably murdered Keith sooner than he did had this happened. I don't see Dan allowing this even if legally he would have been prevented from doing something about it. I think he would have honestly killed Keith before it happened.

True . I have always enjoyed Peyton/Nathan's friendship. That's one relationship where I think that the writers did not do mistakes. Unlike Brucas or Jeyton, Pathan's friendship looked authentic and made sense.

It did.

The thing with Dan was that if you are with Nathan, you are subjected to Dan as well. Both Peyton and Haley had run ins with Dan. I do believe that Dan treated both of them horribly. Luckily both of them were not influenced by Dan. They just reacted differently. Peyton would simply ignore Dan while Haley would talk back to him. And that is one of the reasons why Haley was better for Nathan. She showed him how to handle Dan in a healthy way.

Very true. I'm actually kind of shocked Peyton was so passive with Dan. I much preferred Haley's approach.

I assume Peyton and Nathan had also some not so bad moments from time to time. Otherwise she would not have stayed with him. I am not sure if I have read this in fics or it was real scene in the show but I remember a conversation between Haley and Peyton where Peyton basically admits that she saw chance for Nathan, but she did not know how to bring out his good side. If it wasn't in the show I still it fit in what we saw. I believe that one of the reasons that Peyton broke up with Nathan was because she saw that Haley brings out something in him that Peyton can't. Which is why she warned Haley to be careful with Nathan, but did not tell her to not communicate with Nathan at all. Peyton was specifically vague IMO. She knew that Haley that might succeed with Nathan.

Oh absolutely. I do think it was a combination of Peyton realizing her and Nathan were a trainwreck together, something was clicking between Nathan/Haley, AND Peyton understood what was going on between her and Lucas and how real it was. She knew that realness didn't exist with Nathan. She knew Haley and Nathan were closer to what was happening between her and Lucas. She understood immediately what needed to be done. Yes, Peyton very easily could have told Haley to stay away from him, he was trouble, trash, would completely destroy her. Nope, she didn't do that. She told her to be careful because she knew Haley was walking into fire given Dan and his sick influence on Nathan. But she also knew if anyone could help Nathan, it was Haley, and she quietly encouraged it.

I have had lots of thoughts on this because I do believe that Naley would have been even better as a build-up than what we saw in the show. Basically I would have prolonged the period where Nathan goes from bad to good and vice versa. Here are some examples for that: 1. Instead of Nathan completely stopping hazing Lucas, he could have slipped sometimes thus being called then later by Haley on this. 2. In Episode 7 Nathan came to the rescue for Haley in front of Brooke too much. They have had like 4 episodes interaction and he was already defending her too much. I think it would have been better if he would have let Brooke being bitch and realize say the next day that this was wrong. And then of course he could try to apologize to Haley and she could tell him off. 3. I believe that Nathan kissed Haley too quickly. Again they had interacted for few episodes before he decided that he likes her. He did not know what liking means or relationship. I would have delayed the kiss with few episodes. It ties in with the second because Haley would have been pissed at him a lot more. 4. They could have still used the drugs stuff but prolong a little bit Nathan's realization that he needs Haley. Like he could be just few days with Dan and being treated weird at school before talking to Haley. 5. Nathan became perfect boyfriend too quickly IMO. He had no idea what good boyfriend means so I would have added some issues like that. Like say going to party and ignoring Haley (something similar to what we saw with Hannah and Bright in Season 4) or going to lunch with his basketball buddies and Haley and then ignore her. It makes sense that Nathan would not know how to treat her as his girlfriend because he never had to do this. 6. I would have addressed a bit more the sex issue. I would not have made Nathan cheat, but Nathan used to have sex a lot. Like a lot. I would have expected to have some issues with abstinence similar to the ones Bright had. And I would have expected maybe similar conversation about this and I believe that he would have had it with Peyton. They did address it a bit with the auction episode, but still for me it was not believable that Nathan would try for sex only once with Haley and then he will be completely OK. And I would delay obviously the wedding. Actually I would have made the Season 2 things happen as it is but without the wedding. And I would have made them get married in the end of Season 3 after they have dealt with their issues. I like slow buildup so this is why I would have changed things.

You should have been hired by Mark to fully construct this storyline. I really like your thoughts and ideas. If it would have gone like you mapped out, man it would have been so much better.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by Michelle Thanks, Koni!

Originally Posted by Betty Thanks so much for this, Koni!!

No problem guys .

I debated on starting a new one, then decided to babble instead. I will delete my other post and post it right here now:

I saw your post, but I had a work meeting so I could not answer you.

Seriously, you have to grab onto something and at least we got this. I wonder if Mark didn't know that we'd get a season 5 or something? It seems like he put tons of effort into the season 4 finale (I think that's why it was so good and felt like it easily could have been a series finale) but then a season 5 happened so the direction was a bit off and storylines were outlandish (nanny) and too dark.

I have always assumed that they thought that Season 4 would be the final season which is why they constructed great finale. Then they got renewed for Season 5 and with writers strike they did not have a lot of time to go through things. Also they did not know how to properly negate some of the stuff that happened in Season 4 (like Leyton getting together).

The same thing happened to Dawson's Creek... the season finale of 4 was super good, the right pairings were together, it worked and tied things up nicely. Apparently TPTB were about 95% sure the series was done and season 5 was not happening... but then it did... season 5 is hands down the worst season of the series by far and that's saying something because the show as a rule sucked post season 2, lol.

I completely agree with you. I actually like that Nathan got legally separated from his parents. I think he would continue to sink deeper and deeper if he was forced to live another second with either of them. I also believe Haley saved him. It's funny because usually I can't stand the typical storyline of a bad boy meeting a good girl and the girl having such a great influence on him that he changes. As a rule, I don't like this but it worked for Naley big time. I bought the storyline and cheered for Nathan, Haley and Naley.

I have to admit that I like stories like that if done properly. Sometimes the jerk character is so much of a jerk that I don't root for them to get better. In those cases I do not like the pairing. I even find it unhealthy. Writing and portraying bad character that you are motivated to root for improvement is not easy at all. And not all can do it properly. Sorry to say it again, but Chuck Bass is a good example of how we don't always root for bad boys.

Ideally, Nathan living with Keith would have been a great solution of course over Nathan living alone and marrying Haley so young. It would have made for some great storytelling too seeing Nathan and his uncle finally grow close and Keith's influence would have worked magic on Nathan. Then again, Dan would have probably murdered Keith sooner than he did had this happened. I don't see Dan allowing this even if legally he would have been prevented from doing something about it. I think he would have honestly killed Keith before it happened.

I agree. Dan would have never agreed on Keith taking care of Nathan. He would go ballistic and will sabotage this idea 100000 %.

Very true. I'm actually kind of shocked Peyton was so passive with Dan. I much preferred Haley's approach.

Peyton had issues in general of being passive in the first seasons. She was passive also with Brooke. I have theories why she was passive (not sure if they are correct or not) but for me this was part of her personality in the first say two seasons. She started getting better in Season 3, but then she struggled on balancing this out - example of how she lashed out on Haley for something that other people did. In Season 4 she was able to be vocal with the people that deserved to be. It was the first time where she really was active in showing frustration towards Brooke.

Oh absolutely. I do think it was a combination of Peyton realizing her and Nathan were a trainwreck together, something was clicking between Nathan/Haley, AND Peyton understood what was going on between her and Lucas and how real it was.

Very good point! She saw what she has with Lucas. She saw what Nathan has with Haley and compared those two to lat she has with Nathan. Then she came to the realization that obviously something is completely wrong with them.

She knew that realness didn't exist with Nathan. She knew Haley and Nathan were closer to what was happening between her and Lucas. She understood immediately what needed to be done.

She saw the signs .

Yes, Peyton very easily could have told Haley to stay away from him, he was trouble, trash, would completely destroy her. Nope, she didn't do that. She told her to be careful because she knew Haley was walking into fire given Dan and his sick influence on Nathan. But she also knew if anyone could help Nathan, it was Haley, and she quietly encouraged it.

Because deep down Peyton cared about Nathan. And deep down (very very deep down) Nathan cared about Peyton. Unlike Brooke who just wanted Nathan/Peyton together in Episode 5 so that Lucas is free for her, Nathan really did care what was wrong with Peyton. Yes he assumed wrong. No one argues about this, but he started thinking about this. Also to be honest can you imagine typical jerk painting the nails of some girl? This is not something normal guys do. The fact that Nathan was willing to do this shows that he needed Peyton but not in the girlfriend way. He needed her as a friend. Same for her.

Also for me personally the problem with Peyton and Nathan was that both were closed off and did not communicate with each other. What Lucas and Haley did is that they made them communicate. Haley made Nathan open to her and Lucas made Peyton open to him. This is where basically Lucas and Haley helped Nathan and Peyton. Once they knew how to open up, the Pathan friendship blossomed because they first realized that it's not about romance between them and second they knew how to talk to each other and how to help each other.

You should have been hired by Mark to fully construct this storyline. I really like your thoughts and ideas. If it would have gone like you mapped out, man it would have been so much better.

I know . Joking, but really I do believe that slow buildup would have been better.

[stlavin95]

Thanks for the new one.

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Seriously, you have to grab onto something and at least we got this. I wonder if Mark didn't know that we'd get a season 5 or something? It seems like he put tons of effort into the season 4 finale (I think that's why it was so good and felt like it easily could have been a series finale) but then a season 5 happened so the direction was a bit off and storylines were outlandish (nanny) and too dark.

I think they might have thought it was ending at that point or at least if they didn't, the writers knew that there would be an time jump.

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) I completely agree with you. I actually like that Nathan got legally separated from his parents. I think he would continue to sink deeper and deeper if he was forced to live another second with either of them. I also believe Haley saved him. It's funny because usually I can't stand the typical storyline of a bad boy meeting a good girl and the girl having such a great influence on him that he changes. As a rule, I don't like this but it worked for Naley big time. I bought the storyline and cheered for Nathan, Haley and Naley. Ideally, Nathan living with Keith would have been a great solution of course over Nathan living alone and marrying Haley so young. It would have made for some great storytelling too seeing Nathan and his uncle finally grow close and Keith's influence would have worked magic on Nathan. Then again, Dan would have probably murdered Keith sooner than he did had this happened. I don't see Dan allowing this even if legally he would have been prevented from doing something about it. I think he would have honestly killed Keith before it happened.

Nathan getting legally separated from Dan and Deb was probably the smartest thing he ever did. I normally don't like those storylines, but Nathan's parents were so horrible to him it made it work for me.
Nathan living with Keith would have been great storyline imo and it would have been awesome to see these two a lot more. Probably would have been more realistic too, even though I enjoyed seeing Naley live together. Not sure whether Dan would have killed Keith over that though. since he probably would have never done it if he knew it was Deb that tried to kill him before hand.

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Very true. I'm actually kind of shocked Peyton was so passive with Dan. I much preferred Haley's approach.

Definitely would have loved to have seen Peyton stand up for the way Dan treated Luke at times.

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Oh absolutely. I do think it was a combination of Peyton realizing her and Nathan were a trainwreck together, something was clicking between Nathan/Haley, AND Peyton understood what was going on between her and Lucas and how real it was. She knew that realness didn't exist with Nathan. She knew Haley and Nathan were closer to what was happening between her and Lucas. She understood immediately what needed to be done. Yes, Peyton very easily could have told Haley to stay away from him, he was trouble, trash, would completely destroy her. Nope, she didn't do that. She told her to be careful because she knew Haley was walking into fire given Dan and his sick influence on Nathan. But she also knew if anyone could help Nathan, it was Haley, and she quietly encouraged it.

I think Peyton cared about Nathan a lot, but not enough to try and change him like Haley did. Plus she had a lot of issues at that time in her life and needed someone else (i.e Lucas) to help her through them.

[stlavin95]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) I have always assumed that they thought that Season 4 would be the final season which is why they constructed great finale. Then they got renewed for Season 5 and with writers strike they did not have a lot of time to go through things. Also they did not know how to properly negate some of the stuff that happened in Season 4 (like Leyton getting together).

I think it got renewed just before the season finale from what I've read, but going into writing that episode they definitely probably thought it was ending. The writers strike and Mark's lazy storytelling played an big part in why Season 5 was so bad imo.

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) I have to admit that I like stories like that if done properly. Sometimes the jerk character is so much of a jerk that I don't root for them to get better. In those cases I do not like the pairing. I even find it unhealthy. Writing and portraying bad character that you are motivated to root for improvement is not easy at all. And not all can do it properly. Sorry to say it again, but Chuck Bass is a good example of how we don't always root for bad boys.

The writers did do an great job in showing why Nathan acted the way he did and why he could be redeemed. Never watched Gossip Girl so I can't comment on that lol

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) I agree. Dan would have never agreed on Keith taking care of Nathan. He would go ballistic and will sabotage this idea 100000 %.

Dan definitely wouldn't be happy about it at all, but it's not Keith was scared of Dan or anything like that, at least at that point anyway.

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Peyton had issues in general of being passive in the first seasons. She was passive also with Brooke. I have theories why she was passive (not sure if they are correct or not) but for me this was part of her personality in the first say two seasons. She started getting better in Season 3, but then she struggled on balancing this out - example of how she lashed out on Haley for something that other people did. In Season 4 she was able to be vocal with the people that deserved to be. It was the first time where she really was active in showing frustration towards Brooke.

I think Peyton was only really passive when it came to Brooke tbh, since she had moments where she could put everyone else in the place when it was needed, She probably would have less passive with Dan if she was dating Luke in the lower seasons for me.

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Very good point! She saw what she has with Lucas. She saw what Nathan has with Haley and compared those two to lat she has with Nathan. Then she came to the realization that obviously something is completely wrong with them.

Because deep down Peyton cared about Nathan. And deep down (very very deep down) Nathan cared about Peyton. Unlike Brooke who just wanted Nathan/Peyton together in Episode 5 so that Lucas is free for her, Nathan really did care what was wrong with Peyton. Yes he assumed wrong. No one argues about this, but he started thinking about this. Also to be honest can you imagine typical jerk painting the nails of some girl? This is not something normal guys do. The fact that Nathan was willing to do this shows that he needed Peyton but not in the girlfriend way. He needed her as a friend. Same for her.

Also for me personally the problem with Peyton and Nathan was that both were closed off and did not communicate with each other. What Lucas and Haley did is that they made them communicate. Haley made Nathan open to her and Lucas made Peyton open to him. This is where basically Lucas and Haley helped Nathan and Peyton. Once they knew how to open up, the Pathan friendship blossomed because they first realized that it's not about romance between them and second they knew how to talk to each other and how to help each other. [/QUOTE]

I completely agree with all of this

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) I know . Joking, but really I do believe that slow buildup would have been better.

Build up is always great lol. Is there any other storylines that you think should have gotten that treatment?

[The Crow]

Originally Posted by secretk I have to admit that I like stories like that if done properly. Sometimes the jerk character is so much of a jerk that I don't root for them to get better. In those cases I do not like the pairing. I even find it unhealthy. Writing and portraying bad character that you are motivated to root for improvement is not easy at all. And not all can do it properly. Sorry to say it again, but Chuck Bass is a good example of how we don't always root for bad boys.

Of course, Nathan never tried to date rape anyone, and he never tried to trade Haley for anything, so he's never going to be in the class of jerkdom that I put Chuck Bass in. Unfortunately, most of Gossip Girl fandom didn't agree with me.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Crow (View Post) Of course, Nathan never tried to date rape anyone, and he never tried to trade Haley for anything, so he's never going to be in the class of jerkdom that I put Chuck Bass in. Unfortunately, most of Gossip Girl fandom didn't agree with me.

Exactly! There are bad guys and bad guys. Nathan while bad did not cross lines like that.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post) I think it got renewed just before the season finale from what I've read, but going into writing that episode they definitely probably thought it was ending. The writers strike and Mark's lazy storytelling played an big part in why Season 5 was so bad imo.

Most probably this is what happened .

The writers did do an great job in showing why Nathan acted the way he did and why he could be redeemed. Never watched Gossip Girl so I can't comment on that lol

True .

Dan definitely wouldn't be happy about it at all, but it's not Keith was scared of Dan or anything like that, at least at that point anyway.

I think that Dan had sort of ownership feeling over Nathan. It did not matter who would have taken custody of Nathan, he would have sabotaged it. The worst for Dan was Nathan emancipating because that was difficult for him to sabotage.

I think Peyton was only really passive when it came to Brooke tbh, since she had moments where she could put everyone else in the place when it was needed, She probably would have less passive with Dan if she was dating Luke in the lower seasons for me.

I kind of saw her passive also with Nathan. At least the assumption I got is that she was a bit passive when it comes to him before the breakup. I do believe that she was passive in general. The most it was with Brooke, but still she was also with Dan.

Build up is always great lol. Is there any other storylines that you think should have gotten that treatment?

I would have constructed the drama around Peyton differently. I needed slower buildup there as well for some stuff that I think I already mentioned.
I would have removed the rehash for Brucas in Season 3. I would have changed Season 5 by removing Carrie and Lindsay and let Leyton and Naley deal with their issues without third parties. I would have focused less on secondary characters after Season 4.

[The Crow]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) Exactly! There are bad guys and bad guys. Nathan while bad did not cross lines like that.

Yeah. Nathan was bad in the "he's an a-hole" way. Chuck was bad in the "never leave him alone with your sister" way.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Crow (View Post) Yeah. Nathan was bad in the "he's an a-hole" way. Chuck was bad in the "never leave him alone with your sister" way.

Perfect description!!!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) No problem guys . I saw your post, but I had a work meeting so I could not answer you.

It worked out perfectly anyway.

I have always assumed that they thought that Season 4 would be the final season which is why they constructed great finale. Then they got renewed for Season 5 and with writers strike they did not have a lot of time to go through things. Also they did not know how to properly negate some of the stuff that happened in Season 4 (like Leyton getting together).

Writers strike, that's right! Had to have played a large factor for sure. Yes, season 5 was very poorly constructed.

I have to admit that I like stories like that if done properly. Sometimes the jerk character is so much of a jerk that I don't root for them to get better. In those cases I do not like the pairing. I even find it unhealthy. Writing and portraying bad character that you are motivated to root for improvement is not easy at all. And not all can do it properly. Sorry to say it again, but Chuck Bass is a good example of how we don't always root for bad boys.

He was an attempted rapist not once but twice, not to mention all the other things. Yes, he wasn't a guy you could root for.

The reason why I don't like the bad guy or girl changing because of a good guy or girl's influence is that I just dislike the notion that you need someone to help you be "okay" if that makes sense. I don't like the theory that you need anyone to help you change or be happy unless it's an adult figure that is helping a minor.

Peyton had issues in general of being passive in the first seasons. She was passive also with Brooke. I have theories why she was passive (not sure if they are correct or not) but for me this was part of her personality in the first say two seasons. She started getting better in Season 3, but then she struggled on balancing this out - example of how she lashed out on Haley for something that other people did. In Season 4 she was able to be vocal with the people that deserved to be. It was the first time where she really was active in showing frustration towards Brooke.

Why do you think she was so passive?

For me, I think with Brooke she was just so overwhelming, Peyton just tuned her out with silence, music, just letting Brooke be Brooke while she was in another world. Brooke was just way too self absorbed to notice that Peyton was "leaving for another world" though. With Nathan I think part of it is because she didn't have any parental figures around so she felt like she deserved a chaotic relationship to fill the time, along with never having a Lucas in her life to understand how much better she deserved.

Because deep down Peyton cared about Nathan. And deep down (very very deep down) Nathan cared about Peyton. Unlike Brooke who just wanted Nathan/Peyton together in Episode 5 so that Lucas is free for her, Nathan really did care what was wrong with Peyton. Yes he assumed wrong. No one argues about this, but he started thinking about this. Also to be honest can you imagine typical jerk painting the nails of some girl? This is not something normal guys do. The fact that Nathan was willing to do this shows that he needed Peyton but not in the girlfriend way. He needed her as a friend. Same for her. Also for me personally the problem with Peyton and Nathan was that both were closed off and did not communicate with each other. What Lucas and Haley did is that they made them communicate. Haley made Nathan open to her and Lucas made Peyton open to him. This is where basically Lucas and Haley helped Nathan and Peyton. Once they knew how to open up, the Pathan friendship blossomed because they first realized that it's not about romance between them and second they knew how to talk to each other and how to help each other.

Great thoughts... agree fully.

I know . Joking, but really I do believe that slow buildup would have been better.

Definitely!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post) Thanks for the new one. I think they might have thought it was ending at that point or at least if they didn't, the writers knew that there would be an time jump.

That's the thing... you would have thought Mark would have planned the time jump just in case. It honestly seems like he wasn't completely sure in season 5 where he was going. Things got back on track in season 6 though but season 5 was very fuzzy.

Nathan getting legally separated from Dan and Deb was probably the smartest thing he ever did. I normally don't like those storylines, but Nathan's parents were so horrible to him it made it work for me. Nathan living with Keith would have been great storyline imo and it would have been awesome to see these two a lot more. Probably would have been more realistic too, even though I enjoyed seeing Naley live together. Not sure whether Dan would have killed Keith over that though. since he probably would have never done it if he knew it was Deb that tried to kill him before hand.

Maybe he wouldn't have killed Keith... Part of me feels like it was the brothers destiny to end badly though... something was just not right from the start... you felt this slow brewing violence between Dan and Keith that just kept going and going because Dan wouldn't let up. Dan hated Keith because he basically took his place with Karen and Lucas. We find that out later. I just think because of this fact, then Keith would become an adult figure for Nathan... Dan would have gone apesht and never would have handled it normally.

Definitely would have loved to have seen Peyton stand up for the way Dan treated Luke at times.

I think Peyton cared about Nathan a lot, but not enough to try and change him like Haley did. Plus she had a lot of issues at that time in her life and needed someone else (i.e Lucas) to help her through them.

Totally. I think Peyton knew from the start with Nathan they were never going to be high school sweethearts that would end up together. I think she knew deep down their time together was not for the long haul. I think that's partially why she never tried too hard to keep the relationship. She basically was always operating on the expiration date being around the corner almost. When Lucas came into her life, she finally realized what it was like to truly connect with someone emotionally/romantically and she was blown away. She realized what she had with Nathan absolutely had to end in a final way as a result.

[ds44]

Originally Posted by The Crow (View Post) Yeah. Nathan was bad in the "he's an a-hole" way. Chuck was bad in the "never leave him alone with your sister" way.

Ugh the things that character got away with cause of internet fandom still irks me.