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Old 06-29-2008, 06:21 PM
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Madison pregnancy revelation: Would you have wanted to see a different end result?

First of all, did you like the end result of neither Madison or Ephram being a part of the childs life and the baby with adoptive parents? Or would you have wanted a different resolution instead? Did you like the fact that Madison put the baby up for adoption but you still wanted Ephram to be a part of the childs life, at least eventually? Would you have preferred Madison had kept the baby and Ephram could have gone with the responsible child support route along with being a part of the childs life?

For me, even as a diehard Ephram/Amy fan I was disappointed that Ephram never had the chance to explore the options he had as a father. Those were taken away from him and yes, even if I believe Ephram handled things poorly whenever finding out about all of this, it was very disappointing that he was entirely clueless throughout this entire situation.

An alternative scenario could have been Madison keeping the baby with Ephram paying child support and having the opportunity to be in his childs life. And no, Ephram/Madison would have never revisited romance, that was dead and buried. Ephram and Amy were IT, period, so this wouldn't have been about a triangle or anything ridiculous like that. But I wouldn't have minded a scenario where Madison and Ephram were both parents but separately. This happens all the time in real life.

Another option would have been if Madison wanted to still give up the baby for adoption Andy could have stepped in and helped Ephram take care of their grandchild/child as well. That could have been very interesting to see, having all three generations under the same roof.

Actually in thinking about it, I really don't know ultimately how this storyline could have sufficiently gone down but all I do know is that I didn't necessarily love the fact that Ephram had zero say in the matter until way after the fact. Which brings me to thinking about other options of how this could have been avoided.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-29-2008, 07:11 PM
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For me, I would have liked to see an open adoption scenario. I don't think either were ready to take care of a child, but I think Ephram, at least, would have liked to be a part of the child's life, especially because he had no part in any of the decisions while Madison was pregnant. That way, he would be able to decide what he wanted to do, instead of having been completely shut out of the entire thing, and having a kid out there he will never know.
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Old 06-29-2008, 10:50 PM
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Can I have a different beginning result? Like, say, um, no Madison baby drama at all, please?

I'm not really sure what I really would have changed. I was so furious at this storyline, that now that the show's over and it all kind of worked out for Ephram in the end (becoming more mature, phoning Madison to apologize, all good stuff as a result of this journey), I don't know. I do think the baby storyline was not finished, if the show had gone long enough Ephram would have met his son, or would have been so curious to actually go himself to see the baby. I don't believe for a second that Ephram would have just completely shut himself out of that. Especially the mature version that we saw in season four. I don't think he's ready by any means to be a father, but maybe by season five he would have been ready to see his son.

But yeah, as far as changing it..I'm not sure what I would have liked to have seen. Ephram being more involved in the process would have been nice, obviously.

Good question. I think the Madison stuff..I don't know, again, I was absolutely furious when she said she was pregnant and Andy keeping it a secret; I thought it was teenage soap opera crap that was not Everwood and I still believe that so very much and I remember critics saying as much, but knowing what happens and the positive influence it has on Ephram and Ephram and Andy's relationship and even Amy and Ephram's relationship after Ephram returns to Everwood, it's hard for me to get too too furious at it all now.

I don't think I ever answered the question in my whole post. But there's some thoughts somewhat related to it all.
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 'Tos (View Post)
Can I have a different beginning result? Like, say, um, no Madison baby drama at all, please?
Sounds good to me, too. LOL.

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I do think the baby storyline was not finished, if the show had gone long enough Ephram would have met his son, or would have been so curious to actually go himself to see the baby. I don't believe for a second that Ephram would have just completely shut himself out of that. Especially the mature version that we saw in season four. I don't think he's ready by any means to be a father, but maybe by season five he would have been ready to see his son.
Very true. Good point. And according to spoilers this proves your point all the more in that the spec was Madison might have been returning and that would have, I'm sure, revolved around the baby.

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But yeah, as far as changing it..I'm not sure what I would have liked to have seen. Ephram being more involved in the process would have been nice, obviously.
That really sucked. I still can't get over that he never knew the entire time. I understand Andy's motives for going there, but still... Part of me believes that if both Madison and Andy left him in the dark completely then why tell him in NY, Madison? That's what I didn't understand either and why I will always believe her decision to tell Ephram in NY was more about clearing herself of guilt over technically doing the right thing because how was this benefitting Ephram exactly? The baby was adopted, it was a done deal. Not to mention the bad timing.

But you're so right about how this storyline was good in that Ephram matured so much and his relationships with both Andy and Amy evolved for the better as well.
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:42 PM
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I guess they really needed a reason to have Ephram not go to his Julliard audition. If he auditioned, then he would have to be accepted. Everwood fans knew how talented he was and how hard he worked.....so we wouldn't have accepted any rejection on Julliard's part.

I only wish that the timing of the pregnancy was different and that Andy and he found out about it right after the audition. Of course, he would be accepted by Julliard.
Ephram would then have to make a decision.
Naturally, Ephram being the amazing human being that he was, would decide to defer Julliard and stick by Madison...in the same way that Amy deferred Princeton to stay and help her mom.
This pregnancy and baby would have put a strain on Amy and his relationship. The writers needed that strain to keep the story interesting.They couldn't have Ephram and Amy get together too soon.

I would have really loved to see Delia as an aunt. How adorable would that be.


PS This would have been a great question for the Writers' Thread.

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Old 07-02-2008, 12:55 AM
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Very true. Good point. And according to spoilers this proves your point all the more in that the spec was Madison might have been returning and that would have, I'm sure, revolved around the baby.
Which makes you really really interested in what they had planned, eh? I wish they revealed this or hinted at it (have they? I can't remember now if Rina or Greg or even Sarah had mentioned anything about it after the show was over). She was definitely coming to see Ephram, and the subject of the baby would definitely have come up...so, wait, that means THREE baby storylines potentially going on in season five! Ephram and Madison almost certainly dealing with it, the Abbott house absolutely dealing with a baby, and Berlanti throwing Nina being pregnant with Jake's baby. Is it just me, or is that a lot of babies? Apparently when the higher ups wanted to focus on a younger cast, Berlanti really took it to heart didn't he?

But yeah, I'm now suddenly really curious what they were planning with Madison. Was everyone else already curious and the curiosity is just now hitting me?


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That really sucked. I still can't get over that he never knew the entire time. I understand Andy's motives for going there, but still... Part of me believes that if both Madison and Andy left him in the dark completely then why tell him in NY, Madison? That's what I didn't understand either and why I will always believe her decision to tell Ephram in NY was more about clearing herself of guilt over technically doing the right thing because how was this benefitting Ephram exactly? The baby was adopted, it was a done deal. Not to mention the bad timing.
I do get why Madison told him, although I wish Andy had stressed more strongly how important delaying it a bit longer would be. But, I think Betty's got it for the writing reason that her telling him would keep him away from the audition.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 'Tos (View Post)
She was definitely coming to see Ephram, and the subject of the baby would definitely have come up...so, wait, that means THREE baby storylines potentially going on in season five! Ephram and Madison almost certainly dealing with it, the Abbott house absolutely dealing with a baby, and Berlanti throwing Nina being pregnant with Jake's baby. Is it just me, or is that a lot of babies? Apparently when the higher ups wanted to focus on a younger cast, Berlanti really took it to heart didn't he?
Absolutely.

Wow I never realized how there would have been three baby storylines until you just pointed it out, Tos.

And Betty, good point about Madisongate being a means for Ephram not going to Juilliard. Oh yeah, most definitely.

What I rather have seen instead of the baby storyline would have been showing the progress Ephram made in that throughout all of season 1 here was this kid with purple hair who would have given anything to get back to NYC. He didn't want to be in Everwood. Period. What would have been neat could have been seeing Ephram go through the Juilliard audition, getting accepted THEN Ephram making his own decision that:

A) Ultimately Everwood was his new home and he preferred going to a piano school closer to home
B) Classical piano wasn't really his gig, jazz was, so while the Juilliard training would have been priceless, ulitmately he wanted a more well rounded college education

I would have loved seeing this take place, Ephram making his own choice. Not having uncontrollable circumstances dictate his decisions.

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But yeah, I'm now suddenly really curious what they were planning with Madison. Was everyone else already curious and the curiosity is just now hitting me?
I was curious the moment I heard she might be returning. Not only did I groan loudly but it peeked my interest with admittedly annoyance being an emotion I experienced, because I couldn't understand how they might include Madison in another storyline given what went down in NYC between Madison and Ephram. Of course we had Ephram essentially forgiving her in season 4 (which I have my own thoughts on why I didn't necessarily love this), but I don't see how she could have just shown up given everything that went down between them. What could she have possibly wanted? Did she change her mind about the adoption and was she pursuing her right as a mother and actually going about fighting for parental rights of the baby? Would Berlanti have gone there? What else could the storyline have been pertaining to?

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I do get why Madison told him, although I wish Andy had stressed more strongly how important delaying it a bit longer would be.
That was just lame. So ridiculous. She couldn't have waited a little longer and Andy couldn't have asked her to do this? Of course Andy wasn't in any position for further requests of Madison and maybe he didn't believe it would help much anyway since Madison was clearly angry with him during their meeting at the restaurant. I don't know.

Part of me still finds it odd that Madison listened to Andy in the first place. Here was a girl who had zero problem kicking both Andy and Ephram's asses in, ranting away at them in season 2 then she gets pregnant with Ephram's child and suddenly she's all meek and falls off the face of the earth listening to Andy as if his word was all that mattered? I found that a bit unrealistic.

Last edited by Wilpen; 07-05-2008 at 09:25 PM
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:54 PM
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Jumping in here to say excellent posts, everyone.

Great topic. Thanks for thinking of it, Mitch.

I also found it ridiculously unrealistic that Madison even listened to Andy and that's kind of why I blame Madison even more than Andy in the lame decision to keep the pregnancy from Ephram to be brutally honest here. Andy didn't hold a gun to her head saying if she told Ephram she was going to be in grave danger. Andy gave his suggestion to her, yes he sounded convincing and all, but he never told her what she had to do ultimately. In my mind it was always Madison's decision alone in deciding not to tell Ephram. Maybe there's a bias coming in here since I couldn't stand the sight of Madison. But really, I do believe Madison held all the cards, she made the decisions.

And to answer how I would have handled this storyline? I agree that even if this storyline sucked the big one, Andy/Ephram and Ephram/Amy grew from it and in the end it wasn't absolutely devastating to endure, though Ephram's treatment of Amy and their break up was. Overall, though, I wish this storyline never existed. It was pretty dense if you ask me. Everwood was not about cheap drama and that's always how I viewed this storyline... as cheap drama. This show was not called One Tree Hill, it was called Everwood.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:29 PM
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What I rather have seen instead of the baby storyline would have been showing the progress Ephram made in that throughout all of season 1 here was this kid with purple hair who would have given anything to get back to NYC. He didn't want to be in Everwood. Period. What would have been neat could have been seeing Ephram go through the Juilliard audition, getting accepted THEN Ephram making his own decision that:

A) Ultimately Everwood was his new home and he preferred going to a piano school closer to home
B) Classical piano wasn't really his gig, jazz was, so while the Juilliard training would have been priceless, ulitmately he wanted a more well rounded college education
I think A was kind of already done in season one, finding Everwood as his true home, but maybe going back to New York, and then having a few relapses of wanting to stay and doubting Everwood, for sure.

B is good too, although I know next to nothing about Julliard, heh.

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I would have loved seeing this take place, Ephram making his own choice. Not having uncontrollable circumstances dictate his decisions.
Either way, this is what I really want to reply to because yes yes yes! I had edited out in my previous post that I felt that him missing the audition over this was a bit too easy. It would have been a MUCH more satisfying and challenging route to take, then an unforseen circumstance that was thrown in there. I get why they did it that way and it did work out in the end, but it does feel a bit "cheap" now that I look back on it. Not horribly so, doesn't detract a huge amount from the show, but there were other routes to take that had him making a choice, although they do throw in him making the choice at the actual audition, but it's really driven by an uncontrollable event, not something naturally built up. I 100& and more agree with you.

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which I have my own thoughts on why I didn't necessarily love this
You can't leave my hanging, Michelle! Hehe. Very interested to hear this.

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Part of me still finds it odd that Madison listened to Andy in the first place. Here was a girl who had zero problem kicking both Andy and Ephram's asses in, ranting away at them in season 2 then she gets pregnant with Ephram's child and suddenly she's all meek and falls off the face of the earth listening to Andy as if his word was all that mattered? I found that a bit unrealistic.
I never thought about this, mostly because I don't like thinking about this moment, heh. But yeah, good point. I think they have a bit of a save with the circumstances around the pregnancy, him and Madison not being together and her sense of isolation and desperation, but yeah, definitely definitely see where you're coming from there, it is out of nowhere in a sense.

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Everwood was not about cheap drama and that's always how I viewed this storyline... as cheap drama. This show was not called One Tree Hill, it was called Everwood.
How I've always looked at it too. Everwood was all about naturally, character-driven drama when its storylines were at its best (and the bad ones stand out so much because they are so awkwardly forced in), and this one was not. At all. I don't mind the outcome, but how it started...again, almost quit watching because of that. I really did. Holy hell am I glad I didn't.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 'Tos (View Post)
Can I have a different beginning result? Like, say, um, no Madison baby drama at all, please?
Yes please

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Another option would have been if Madison wanted to still give up the baby for adoption Andy could have stepped in and helped Ephram take care of their grandchild/child as well. That could have been very interesting to see, having all three generations under the same roof.
It's so funny you mention that, Michelle. A while back I began writing a fic similar to that... Unfortunately it was so long ago 1) I don't remember if I ever put it online or if it's on a disc or somewhere on the computer and 2) I don't recall ever putting an ending on it. But I do remember in the fic Madison never told Andy, went away when she found out she was pregnant, came back after the baby was born and left him on the Brown's doorstep. If memory serves, Ephram was taking out the trash and found the baby, freaked out, etc etc... they found a note in the diaper bag, Madison explaining that the baby was either Ephram's or her ex, Jays. That she could no longer care for him (it was a boy in the fic too); she knew Andy could do paternity tsting in his office and if it was Ephram's and he didn't want to/couldn't take responsibilities, she had adoption papers already signed in the bag as well. And if it wasn't his to please inform Jay. Grrr... I'm annoyed now because I can't remember where it is, hopefully I put it up on fanfiction.net...

Anyhow.. it was interesting in the fic, having the three under the same roof. Although I hadn't decided whether or not to make it his, most likely the reason it is left unfinished...
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:07 AM
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You know what, Ashley, I totally remember you mentioning this fic idea on AIM, man, years back. Roughly 3 years ago since I remember it was whenever Angela were just getting started or soon after that. I remember it clearly that you had this idea and explained it to me while I was cheering you on to get going with it. You really should write it up, that'd be awesome! We also really should talk on AIM again soon, dude.


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although they do throw in him making the choice at the actual audition, but it's really driven by an uncontrollable event, not something naturally built up. I 100& and more agree with you.
That's a supeb point. Ephram did ultimately make a choice, that's true. He really had all the cards in his hand and it wasn't Andy or even Madison who dictated this choice even if they didn't help matters when the drama took place before the audition. Ultimately Ephram could have collected himself and gotten through the audition should he have chosen to do so, but he didn't. I think in life the choices we make we have to own and Ephram was fully responsible for his decision, no one else. In my mind if going to Juilliard was the right, meant to be choice for him, he would have found a way to make it happen. Especially after Amy lovingly got him another chance and he still said no. Forgot about that. He had not one but two chances which further promotes the fact that it was never his calling, never meant to be.

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Originally Posted by Tos
You can't leave my hanging, Michelle! Hehe. Very interested to hear this.
Heh.

Well, I think Ephram suddenly forgiving Madison while it showed huge maturity on Ephram's part since season 4 for Ephram, one of the main themes, was all about Ephram going from boy to man was also a very convenient way to almost place the blame back on Ephram combined with opening the door for her possible return in the future.

So I think it was a mix of showing Ephram's maturity and leaving that door open which made me cringe a bit, the part about her possibly returning. The placing some blame on Ephram wasn't totally deserved although I could be off on this take for sure. How Ephram treated Andy before the audition was completely hard on the eyes and entirely unnecessary and I blame Ephram for that, I also think that Ephram had no reason to necessarily forgive Madison for the situation, though. I didn't see the point past making her somewhat of a victim especially if she were to return. It was all just weird, that phone call. I don't know why but it bothered me on some level. I didn't think it was necessary or maybe a better way to state it is I didn't understand the POINT to it. I guess in thinking about it more a message being sent in that episode was also to prove that Ephram loved Amy even throughout his stupid band lie and to forgive Madison was almost poetically saying that she was out of his life and there were no hard feelings since he was moving on.

So I guess I just contradicted myself big time with this explanation. But I guess that's our Everwood for you, there's many answers because no subject was ever a simple, easy one. Which is why this show was so damn amazing and real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tos
I never thought about this, mostly because I don't like thinking about this moment, heh.
That's a terrific way of stating it, I agree.

Maybe the reason why Madison was so meek and almost dedicated to Andy's strong suggestion of keeping it from Ephram was to show how even someone who looks rough around the edges like she clearly seemed at times in season 2, does eventually have their breaking point and this was Madison's moment to do just that. The situation was such a shocking, emotional one. As a result she really wasn't herself and acted way out of personality because she didn't know how to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Tos
How I've always looked at it too. Everwood was all about naturally, character-driven drama when its storylines were at its best (and the bad ones stand out so much because they are so awkwardly forced in), and this one was not. At all. I don't mind the outcome, but how it started...again, almost quit watching because of that. I really did. Holy hell am I glad I didn't.
Wow, really? Amazing. I'm so glad you didn't! Tell me more about your thoughts during this moment in time.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:33 AM
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Maybe the reason why Madison was so meek and almost dedicated to Andy's strong suggestion of keeping it from Ephram was to show how even someone who looks rough around the edges like she clearly seemed at times in season 2, does eventually have their breaking point and this was Madison's moment to do just that. The situation was such a shocking, emotional one. As a result she really wasn't herself and acted way out of personality because she didn't know how to handle it.
Not to forget the fact that although she was older than Ephram....she was still really a baby herself. She was very scared and was looking for any kind of advice.
She took Andy's advice....even though it was lousy advice!


Quote:
I didn't think it was necessary or maybe a better way to state it is I didn't understand the POINT to it. I guess in thinking about it more a message being sent in that episode was also to prove that Ephram loved Amy even throughout his stupid band lie and to forgive Madison was almost poetically saying that she was out of his life and there were no hard feelings since he was moving on.
I think the point of the forgiveness and the phone call to Madison is that he was very accusatory to her in the coffee shop......kind of nasty.
He realized that she went through a lot having a baby on her own...no help....and she did that because she listened to his dad.
Ephram realized that Andy was mostly to blame, and since he had forgiven Andy (after realizing what it's like to try to protect a loved one from harm because of his experience with Kyle) he had to forgive Madison.

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Old 08-14-2008, 12:28 PM
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LOL me i would have loved to see madison come back and ephram be the mature man he became in season four knowing the writers there prbably would have been some angst between teh two but ultimately in the end it would still be ephram/amy. THis show still had enough to go a few more seasons unfortunately we lost it it could have been great. But on the bright side sarah lancaster(madison) would probably still be doing everwood and not chuck so wooo lol
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:37 PM
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LOL me i would have loved to see madison come back and ephram be the mature man he became in season four knowing the writers there prbably would have been some angst between teh two but ultimately in the end it would still be ephram/amy. THis show still had enough to go a few more seasons unfortunately we lost it it could have been great. But on the bright side sarah lancaster(madison) would probably still be doing everwood and not chuck so wooo lol
I think that there would have been angst on Madison's part....but not Ephrams.
Madison would see what a terrific, mature guy Ephram had become (although, to me, he was always terrific!). She wouldn't act on her feelings....but we'd be able to tell by the way she would look at Ephram. Kind of like the way she looked at him the first time he tried to rewrite her music (lustful admiration!)
Ephram, on the other hand, would be oblivious and gloriously in love with Amy!
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:55 PM
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You know what, Ashley, I totally remember you mentioning this fic idea on AIM, man, years back. Roughly 3 years ago since I remember it was whenever Angela were just getting started or soon after that. I remember it clearly that you had this idea and explained it to me while I was cheering you on to get going with it. You really should write it up, that'd be awesome! We also really should talk on AIM again soon, dude.
3 years ago, eh? Yeaahhh, I knew it was a while ago, heh! (Side Note: Yay on 3 years with Angela! It doesn't seem that long and at the same time, it seems like it's been forever!) I really should finish it, like I said though, no idea where it is...

And I'm always on AIM Your NEVER on.
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