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Old 07-23-2013, 07:37 AM
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The Ketchup Kids (B/H) #11: In Their End is Their Beginning (2)

(Title by way of T.S. Eliot. 'Cause I'm hip.)


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Old 07-23-2013, 07:39 AM
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Thanks for the new thread. Should I bring my last post on the old thread over here Michelle?
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL22
Greg Berlanti is the one who came up with Pacey kisses Joey. I'm going to excerpt a few paragraphs from the book "Billion Dollar Kiss" page 6

"As the day progressed and the story process did not, moving from constructive to
dialectic to something less collegial, twenty seven year old Greg Berlantii, a former producer's assistant who had just started writing TV the year before said something that changed all our lives: "Pacey kisses Joey

I'll condense the rest....They were against it initially but Berlanti was so impassioned on his idea he swayed the other writers.

So, yes it was Greg Berlanti who broke up Pacey and Andie and it was Greg Berlanti who broke up Hannah and Bright.

The author of "Billion Dollar Kiss" is Jeffery Stepakoff who was one of the new writers. In his opinion the kiss saved the show. Which I disagree with. The new crop of writers had no idea how to follow Kevin Williamson. As I said before the show lost 1.4 million viewers per episode season 3.

I don't think even Berlanti and Stepakoff envisioned Pacey and Joey at the end. They did a pretty good job of destroying that relationship season four. (Promicide)

I think around season four the network decided Katie Holmes was going to be the next IT GIRL and that is when the series swung to her being the main character as she was seasons 5 and 6.

I also suspect the network may have been behind the release of Meredith Monroe who in my opinion was much better looking than Katie Holmes (even thought they tried to hide it) and a much better actress.

I can't even conceive of Katie Homes pulling off the bathroom scene with Joshua Jackson. at the end of season two.

Another great Meredith Monroe scene was when Jack came out to his father. Her, Kerr Smith and the late David Dukes. Nailed that scene, some of the best acting on the show.

The thing is if Meredith Monroe was available when KW needed her for 2 or 3 weeks instead of one day; you most likely would have had a different ending.
Quote:
By the way there is some good Pacey and Andie fanfiction on fanfiction.net.

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Originally Posted by Mich1111 (View Post)
Wow, I never knew any of this! I had no idea he was directly involved!

Maybe he did tinker with PJ but never intended for it to be long term. He created a monster essentially!

So true about Katie being the IT girl.

Yes, Kevin wrote a DJ and PA ending and then changed it at the last minute. I remember when those spoilers changed drastically. Excellent point about Meredith Monroe and if she was available for the finale more, we would have gotten our ending. That is very frustrating to think about!

Thank you for the fan fic link!

I will never get over what was done to PA in season 2 and DJ for that matter. I had no idea Berlanti was directly involved, no idea! Now, more than ever, it seems he learned not to do that to Ephram/Amy but of course, slipped up with Bright/Hannah. I remember reading something about him thinking it should have been a Dawson/Joey ending. I had absolutely no idea he played a part in the beginning of Pacey/Joey and destruction of Pacey/Andie. Berlanti was a big part of season 2. He was the reason in many ways that we received such amazing Pacey/Andie scenes. Then he throws it all away by forcing Pacey/Joey and destroying Pacey/Andie? That sucks so much!
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Wow, that blows me away. I had no idea that Greg Berlanti came up with the idea of Pacey kissing Joey. The end of Season Three of Dawson's Creek didn't “save” the show, it ruined it. The way that Pacey and Joey got together and Dawson’s reaction to them getting together ruined all of the characters and the relationships and the friendships on the show were never the same after that. Pacey and Joey’s relationship was based on deception and betrayal, and yet a lot of people bought into it and blamed Dawson and/or Andie for everything. Putting Pacey and Joey together also divided the fanbase and it created a lot of animosity here between the Dawson and Joey fans and the Pacey and Joey fans, and I still have hurt feelings about how hateful some people were to each other and to me personally because of that ill conceived love triangle. I also hated the character assassination that the writers put Andie through, and I hate that Meredith Monroe was written off the show because her character was completely ruined to the point where she was hated and some people here at Fan Forum actually had the gall to write that they should kill her off or have her commit suicide! Needless to say, I went through the roof when someone posted that on the Dawson’s Creek board here when I moderated it! Andie was a much better girlfriend to Pacey than Joey ever was, and she was a wonderful person who had been through a lot, but her character was purposely destroyed in Season Three, as was Dawson’s character. I hated how Joey/Katie Holmes became the IT Girl of the show that everyone praised, because I found Joey to be incredibly selfish and heedless of the feelings of the people that loved her. I also agree that Meredith Monroe was a much better actress than Katie Holmes, and I hated how the show became the Joey Potter hour in the later seasons. Even after all these years, I’m still bitter over what was done to all of the characters on Dawson’s Creek in Season Three to accommodate a Pacey and Joey paring.

Last edited by Auror; 07-23-2013 at 07:48 AM
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:43 AM
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Thanks for the new thread. Should I bring my last post on the old thread over here Michelle?
Already done, friend.

What do you guys think for a title? I left it open.

I wish Thief would come around to this neck of the woods because her beautiful banner has a 10 on it, and I would love to change it to 11 but don't know how to. Thief, if you are reading this and want to change it to 11, please let us know!

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Old 07-23-2013, 07:50 AM
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Thanks Michelle. Well, I'll never feel the same way about Greg Berlanti after hearing that news!
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)
Thanks Michelle. Well, I'll never feel the same way about Greg Berlanti after hearing that news!
I hear you! I had no idea. We always primarily blamed Stupin for this. I never knew how big of a part Berlanti played in this. I totally remember him saying that Dawson/Joey should have ended up together, too, which makes it even more frustrating since he essentially played a direct part in everything that happened post season 2... destroying Andie's character by having her cheat (like that was in character!), having her cry attempted rape (only for Joey to look good), breaking up Pacey/Andie as if season 2 never even happened, allowing Dawson to look like a moron in season 3, the show turning into an entirely different show post season 3, Katie/Joey taking over as THE actress/character, pushing aside Dawson's actual creek, and so much more. This is very unsettling to me. I always thought Berlanti sort of went with the program and didn't like the direction when in fact, he took the ship and pointed it in this crazy direction from the start!
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:43 AM
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Yes, Michelle, we always blamed Stupin, and ultimately, he was the one who’s responsible for that disaster because he was the show runner after Kevin Williamson left, but I’m so disappointed that Greg Berlanti came up with the idea for Pacey and Joey. The idea of Pacey and Joey could have appealed to me if it was done right because Josh and Katie did have a lot of chemistry, but the way that they were brought together turned me off to them, and I didn’t warm up to them until Season Six, because by then Dawson and Joey had been so completely destroyed as a couple and as friends that I gave up on them, and even now, I’m still bitter about how everything went down at the end of Season Three.

Kevin Williamson seems to have a habit of walking away from his shows and leaving them in the hands of people that don’t have his gift for storytelling and who change the direction of the show once they take over. He did it with Dawson’s Creek, and now he’s done it again with The Vampire Diaries. In both cases, once he left, the “Soulmate” couple on the show was ruined to accommodate the “Started out as Enemies” couple.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:34 AM
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Jerry, you are right on about Stupin still being ultimately responsible because he was the show runner. Everything had to run by him no matter what. Shame on Berlanti to ever come up with such a lame idea. Pacey/Joey could have been done properly if other characters and couples didn't have to be destroyed in order to go there. Dawson/Joey could have been portrayed as just friends or friends who tried romance but it didn't work out so they went back to being friends only. Pacey/Andie were so special and had to be knocked down in order to make way for Pacey/Joey. Also, with Dawson/Joey, they kept the "meant to be/soulmates" tag with them until the very end so they strung along Dawson/Joey fans from start to finish. That is what's so bad and why the series was a disaster post season 2. If Pacey/Joey would have been done properly, that is one thing. But the pairing is like Madison on Everwood in a way... the pairing had to take out certain aspects of the show in order to stand up. Thankfully, Madison didn't destroy Everwood but she certainly is held responsible for wasting time and energy on her when that precious time could have been spent on things that mattered. Pacey/Joey changed the entire flavor of Dawson's Creek. Season 5 was so bad because Katie took center stage and the entire premise of the show was gone when Dawson was drowning in his own creek.

Kevin Willamson should be ashamed for abandoning his own art. It reminds me of a painter who starts creating a masterpiece that looks very promising and spectacular. But then, suddenly, the painter hands the brush to someone else and asks that person to finish it and without any instructions on how to finish it, let alone that personal touch is gone and the entire masterpiece is ruined.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:57 AM
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Well, I don’t know why Williamson walked away from The Vampire Diaries, but with Dawson’s Creek, I think that he and everyone involved never expected the show to go beyond Season One, because it was a Mid-Season Replacement Show with a limited number of episodes on a fledgling network, so that’s why Season One played out like a Mini-Series, with a beginning, a middle, and an end where Dawson realizes that he’s in love with Joey and he kisses her. Once the show became tremendously popular and it was renewed, they didn’t know what to do, so they broke up Dawson and Joey and brought in Jack and Andie as love interests for Joey and Pacey, because I guess they felt that keeping Dawson and Joey together as a couple would make them boring, but once they broke them up as a couple, they also destroyed their friendship, which was what everyone had loved about them, and the show was never the same after that. Williamson’s involvement in the show was minimal in Season Two, and he left the show entirely after Season Two, and the show suffered for it.

In hindsight, they shouldn’t have gotten Dawson and Joey together so early in the Series run, because they had nowhere to go but down after that. They should have kept them as friends and allowed them to date other people, but have them realize in the final season that they were meant to be together. Instead, like you said, the writers and producers cynically strung along the Dawson and Joey fans with all the “soulmate” talk and giving them a nice scene together here and there to show they still had a connection, but in the end, the Dawson and Joey fans got nothing but a phony “soulmate” declaration between them, which ultimately meant nothing because they became the antithesis of “soulmates,” and she ended up with Pacey.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:09 AM
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I wish the show would have ended after one season. It would have been perfect. I also heard they thought the show was done after Coda aka the finale of 4. That is why, once again, they had Dawson/Joey kissing in his bedroom. They still, at that point, wanted Dawson/Joey getting the romantic happy ending. Once season 5 happened, it became Joey's Creek and outside of throwing Dawson/Joey fans a bone with their first time sleeping together, that was all that they were giving the pairing. Of course they still went with Joey jealous of every romantic pairing Dawson had and the ending was going to be Dawson/Joey even in the finale, but was changed at the last minute.

I basically separate the series into three parts:

After the Season 1 Finale: That is when the series should have ultimately ended, the series finale of 1. It had the premise and exact ending Kevin wanted. It made sense.

After the Season 4 Finale: The disaster known as season 3 took place, followed by the PJ romantic relationship in season 4, but the entire time Joey was with Pacey, we saw she wasn't over Dawson romantically. Thus, Coda made sense and it was still a version of the finale of season 1, even with a little bit of crap in between.

Season 5 until the end: Was just ridiculous and the show was just off the mark completely once Joey inherited her creek.

Yes, a huge mistake they made was getting Dawson/Joey together that soon. They thought the series was over after the finale of 1, so they went there. They didn't know what to do after that so it was roadblocks and stupid storylines, like Joey telling Dawson she needed time on her own, only for her to fall into the arms of a gay guy who ultimately didn't want her either.

The biggest mistake ever made, though, was the Pacey/Joey relationship. That changed this entire series and there was no turning back. They could have gone with the obstacles and other romantic pairings for Dawson/Joey if it would have been pairings that were short-lived and didn't affect the main story. The second they went with Pacey/Joey, Dawson/Joey were doomed (there was one last chance if the show ended after Coda, but didn't) and there was no turning back.

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Old 07-23-2013, 11:03 AM
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I created a new thread discussing Creek over Here
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:21 PM
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Jack and Andie was Kevin Williamson's idea He auditioned hundreds of actresses for the role of Andie and as soon as Meredith walked in he knew he had his Andie.

KW was quite fond of Meredith Monroe and the character Andie.

At the end of season four I they wanted Meredith Monroe to come back and do some more episodes. Meredith being pissed about being let go refused. After Some backroom dealing and cajoling she did come back and film the graduation.

I strongly suspect that they felt the show was going to be canceled at the end of season four. So they wanted Meredith Back so Pacey would be with Andie. The season ended Dawson and Joey kissing and pacey and Andie in a real good place in their lives.........This is when the show should have stopped instead of becoming Joey's Creek or as someone said somewhere a poor copy of Felicity.
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:53 PM
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The original is on an old computer, but it was basically just a matter of painting over and replacing the number.

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:11 PM
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Nice! It looks perfect. I just love that banner. Adding it right now, thanks!

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Old 07-26-2013, 08:43 AM
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Okay, here's a topic question:

If you were the writer of the Bright/Hannah storyline in the series finale, how would you have constructed their ending?
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