secretk

Could be . I haven't watched other Berlanti shows aside the Tomorrow people, but this show is definitely not about love . So no main pairing there. Plus it was cancelled and it had only one season.

Story wise for me it made sense for Ephram/Amy to not get together right after Colin's death. I think that Amy needed time to deal properly with Colin's death. Ephram was never about to be rebound for her and she wasn't ready for anything serious at that time.

Ephram was also not ready to wait another year by Amy's side and while he cared about Amy a lot, he also liked her a lot so he wasn't the best to help her to get through Colin's death.

Their separation in Season 2 made great sense for me. Then again I binged watched the show so I guess for me was a bit different. I didn't wait a year for them to get together. I watched the season for a week . This is why I love to binge watch shows though. The story is quite fresh in your mind and you see it unfold right before your eyes.

jediwands

Until recently I've never binge watched shows but I completely agree sometimes it's the only way to go! I love that I binge watched The 100 and now I only have to wait a bit to see season 3 in January. Plus, this is the type of show that really makes you think. Waiting for a week or even longer on those breaks really takes away from the momentum and intellectual stimulation this sort of show gives you.

Totally agree with your thoughts on Ephram/Amy waiting until well after Amy got through her depression and Colin's death was dealt with. The other thing is... Ephram/Amy technically started falling for each other while Colin was sick, too. That actually was pretty touchy when you think about it, lol. The story is way more complex than that... we know Colin was breaking up with Amy, Amy had no idea Colin was even waking up, etc. But still, Ephram/Amy did start falling for each other while Amy was still technically with Colin. They did the right thing and never acted on their feelings once he was awake. But still, they did grow closer while he was in a coma and it got very complicated and heartbreaking (of course when he died) after that... so it would have made zero sense for Ephram/Amy to get together anywhere near the date of Colin's death. 100% time had to pass before they even considered going there. I figure it was approximately a year, give or take, and that was a good time period.

secretk

Exactly. This is why I prefer to wait for such shows and binge watch them than watch one episode every week.

For sure they had feelings for each other even when Colin was alive. Their story started from the Pilot, definitely not in the end of Season 2 when they started going out. However I think that if they had rushed into things early in Season 2 it might have ended up worse for them. Amy wasn't ready for relationship at that moment, not serious one and Ephram wanted serious relationship. Amy was ready for some fooling around so that she could handle the sadness she had over Colin. She wasn't ready for intense serious romance though.

And if they had tried something and failed Ephram might have gotten the wrong idea that Amy doesn't want him. This is why I do believe that they had to wait. I do think that for them it wasn't about will they/won't they, but about timing. They had to wait and be patient so that their relationship could blossom.

jediwands

Well said. I completely agree. They definitely needed to wait. Also, I do believe it was good for Ephram to have the relationship with Madison. Yes, you heard me right, I said it. Of course I hate many aspects of their relationship but he did a lot of growing up while in that relationship. This isn't about sex too. I've heard people say they liked that Ephram lost his virginity before being with Amy. I actually don't care about that and feel like it would be been pretty neat had Ephram and Amy lost their virginity to each other. That said, I was not pissed that Ephram lost his virginity to someone other than Amy. It was fine but not my reason for thinking Ephram having the relationship before being with Amy was a good thing. I just feel like Ephram really grew up while in that relationship. He might have acted immaturely from time to time but overall he was growing, evolving and really did take a great deal of wisdom once he parted ways with Madison. I've often said if Ephram/Madison would have officially concluded their relationship when they legit broke up and the pregnancy scenario and drama never would have taken place, I wouldn't have hated the relationship nearly as much.

As for Amy and Tommy... I think Amy thought she needed that one at the time. However, I feel like being with Tommy only allowed her to dig even deeper into her depression. He was just someone she could be with AND still be depressed... not to mention stick it to Harold.

everwoodfan52

That's what I hated most about Tommy. He did nothing but bring Amy down further into the Pits and helped alienate her further from her family.

jediwands

Yes, Tommy was used as a wedge between Amy/Harold and Amy/Edna and to keep Amy severely involved in her situational depression.

I think Ephram learned he had to grow up while with Madison. Heck, she reminded him in an insensitive, cruel way over and over again that he was a kid and not grown up enough. He proved her wrong basically. I still think he would have gotten more out of a relationship with someone his own age he didn't knock up but like I said, he still matured nevertheless even if many of us had to be grossed out by their scenes. LOL

secretk

I think that Ephram needed relationship other than Amy not to learn about sex. For sure . So we are on the same page with you. However Ephram was very emotional person. He saw the things really in black and white. He could hate and love passionately. I think that he was too intense about his like towards Amy. It's like he was so focused on this that he couldn't see that life is more than that. While it's great to be in love and to love someone, you still shouldn't lose yourself in this love. Especially when in this particular moment that person is not ready. Amy had very valid reasons to not be ready and Ephram had to respect that. The thing is that I do believe that he would have had serious problems with it if he wasn't busy with other stuff . So yeah Ephram had to slow down a bit and let Amy catch up.

Madison was always the girl that keeps Ephram busy enough to not push Amy while she is not ready . At least I saw it this way.

The thing is that in this moment Amy wanted to be depressed. I'm not saying that it was up to her and that she said to herself let's be depressed. Deep down though on some level she wanted to be sad and depressed.

And Tommy was perfect for this. He got along with it, he didn't care enough to provoke her to get better. Tommy was perfect for what she wanted - be wit him, but not exactly be with him. Tommy didn't know her so she didn't need to pretend to feel good around him. She could act depressed and he wouldn't care enough to talk about her parents or do something. It's what she wanted.

Amy had spent months waiting for Colin to wake up. During this time she had convinced herself that Colin was the one. I do believe that before the accident Amy hadn't thought that much about their relationship. Of course she liked Colin. Otherwise she wouldn't have been with him. However she for sure didn't think about marrying him and having kids with him. That I'm sure. She started idolizing their relationship when he had the accident and he was in coma. With every day she clung into this relationship more and more and she hoped that he would wake up and survive. Andy coming back made this desire really real and possible. When that crashed and burned her world collapsed and she was too depressed. She didn't want to get better. She didn't want to be happy at that moment and find the light. She had convinced herself that Colin was the love of her life and she lost him. It was all in her head and I am sure that later she realized that Colin wasn't the one and while he was her first one, he wasn't gonna be the last one even if he had survived.

It's like how they say you have to hit rock bottom before you get better. With Tommy she was able to go at the deepest with her depression and then like phoenix to get better. Her rock bottom was when she tried the drugs. This is when she realized that there is no going any deeper than this and she had to re-surface again and move past this.

everwoodfan52

Koni, that is an excellent way of putting it.


Yes, he would have. I do think that someone his own age "could" have been more of a threat to his relationship with Amy and might have made me more nervous. If only he and Madison hadn't had the sex!

jediwands

I see what you guys are saying and I know the both of you didn't mind Madison but I still cannot find a way to make her presence acceptable. Not happening.

For me, I preferred someone Ephram's own age AND I wouldn't have cared about any supposed threat to Ephram/Amy. See this is where you either believe and trust in the Ephram/Amy story or you don't. For me, no matter who got involved with Ephram romantically wouldn't have been a threat because Ephram/Amy were already established in a solid way in season 1. I believed in and supported their story from the start. It had such a solid foundation. As a result, Ephram could have had a beautiful relationship with someone else before Amy and I actually would have supported it. I think Ephram would have gotten way more out of that relationship over the drama and constant tears he experienced with Madison.

There's no way any relationship he had, even if it was a nice, sweet one, would have threatened Ephram/Amy and that's why I wanted way more for Ephram. He deserved something with less stress and turmoil in season 2 compared to what he received. Tommy and Amy, for as unhealthy as they were, made sense because Amy was already in turmoil and deep depression. Ephram wasn't. I will always believe he deserved way more than Madison in season two (and the pregnancy that followed). Most relationships you have in high school are not true love. They're mostly having fun with someone, not true love declarations. Just hanging out and having fun. I wanted that for Ephram before Amy.

secretk

I didn't like it. I just know why the writers wrote that story which doesn't mean that I like it.

Actually I don't have problem with that. It wasn't the age thing for me. It was the fact that Madison wasn't at the school. I believe that every girl from that school with at least some functioning brain (and Ephram wouldn't choose brainless chick) would have needed exactly one interation between Amy and Ephram to know that she doesn't have a chance .

I might not like Amy/Ephram like you do, but I still believe that there was no girl that would make Ephram forget Amy. Keep him busy - yes. Make him forget not. Now I might like him more with other girl (say Laynie), but I still believe that more fans would feel like you.

I think that they needed girl that doesn't know Amy and doesn't know what Ephram feels about Amy. However this could have been arranged. If he had gone to piano lessons somewhere else and he had met girl through the lessons there he could have had something with this said girl. I think this is quite plausible. Then this girl could have visited Ephram at their home and could have bonded to some extent with Delia.

I don't like the pregnancy to be honest no matter the girl's age. I just didn't like it, but to be honest it would have made even more sense if a teen girl went to Andy. This girl could have been adopted for example. So she couldn't feel comfortable talking about her parents about that and she went to Andy for advice as he is doctor.

I think that my proposal is not that bad and definitely could have worked for what they wanted to do.

The thing is that they wanted the turmoil. Madision had three purposes:

1. Keeping Eprham busy
2. Cause rift between Andy and Ephram
3. Cause rift between Amy and Ephram

They constructed Madison/Ephram from the start to be that disastrous. They actually wanted to have those conflicts in Season 3. So no matter Madison's age I believe that they would have gone there because they wanted to go there. They wanted to have this disaster episode in Season 3. They would have never allowed Ephram to go to Julliard. It wasn't in their plans. They wanted to cause problems for Andy/Epgram because this was the basis of the show. And they wanted to break up Amy and Ephram in Season 3.

It was all wanted. The problem is that they didn't make it logical. I know why they did this, but if they had written the story plausible and logical I would have had less problems with it. It made no sense from the start to finish. If Madison was 16 years old teen that was abandoned from her parents I would accept it. She was 21. You know how many people have kids at this age? Hell my mother gave birth at 22. Madison wasn't in the age where she couldn't handle baby. And it was never shown that Madison has no support system.

Not to mention that I wouldn't believe that Ephram didn't use condoms and that Madison (as she is 21) didn't make him use condoms. This story was just not executed well and that makes me dislike this story so much.

jediwands

Why does Berlanti love these storylines? He's doing the same dang thing on Arrow right now. Good thing I stopped watching that show a long time ago. I just tuned in because there was a crossover with The Flash this past week. I can't believe how he loves this storyline/cheap drama. It's a son but this time around the son is much older and he's making the father of the son look like the bad guy, instead of the people around Ephram looking like the bad guys. It's causing drama between the main romantic pairing, all of that. Berlanti just loves this storyline. I swear, if he goes there with Supergirl somehow I am going to scream.

I wish Ephram would have found somehow who loved music like he did, some girl he could share music with and date for a while in season 2. No, Madison's singing and band doesn't count. I would have loved seeing Ephram maybe meet someone through Will. That way it'd be very separate and his own storyline, I guess kind of like Kyle in a way.

YES to all of this. Entirely agree. Nice thoughts. So true that they'd never allow Ephram to go to NYC to study music for college. It wasn't happening. Yes, to the age thing too. That is so true. That is why I've always found it entirely unrealistic that she went to Andy and didn't handle it in a different way. She was probably freaked that Ephram was 16 and all of that but at her age, it was not unrealistic for her to be married and expecting her first child at that age! It was unrealistic and you make a good point... if she was 16 instead of 21, I think she would have garnered way more sympathy. So true about the condom issue too. Pregnancies can be a surprise and all of that but no way on earth would Ephram be careless. Hey, I might not have even liked Madison too much but I think she would have typically been more careful too. She knew Andy wasn't exactly supporting them, she knew the relationship was touchy and all of that... I can't even see her being that careless, let alone Ephram.

It was contrived, lame drama.

secretk

I read in OT2 thread that he incorporated similar story in the Arrow. No idea why he does it. I personally dislike this very much. Wow yeah that would be so weird if something like that happens in Supergirl as well. Luckily I don't watch Supergirl for the romantic pairings so I won't be that disappointed if he decides to do it.


Kyle/Epghram interactions were quite interesting .

I'm sucker for stories where music brings people together so yeah for sure I would have loved story line like that.


I guess they could have written it differently though.

I get that she was freaked out that she had a child with 16 years old boy. I also get that she would be a little freaked out. Most women are, no matter their age. But this story didn't make sense. We didn't know Madison enough to get where she was coming from.

My opinion is that they realized that this pregnancy came out of nowhere and most people were asking themselves how the hell this happened. They never showed incident with breaking condom or stuff like that. So then they decided to throw out that comment where Ephram admits to having sex without condom. The thing is that if Ephram is responsible enough to test himself for STDs, he will be responsible enough to not have sex without condom. This just didn't ring true to me.

And this is why I dislike it so much because Everwood wasn't like that and I think that aside this and the Andy/Amanda storyline everything else was quite realistic. It was drama, but it wasn't contrived. It made sense you know. You could understand the characters's actions and feelings. You could even say that you have felt the same way.

jediwands

Oh he has and it's even worse on Arrow. Mostly because I really don't like the mains involved in it, but it's just overall irritating. He is so obsessed with pregnancy storylines shocking people, causing break ups, etc. If we believe his proposal for season 5 Everwood he was possibly having Nina pregnant with Jake's baby too and the Andy/Nina/Jake triangle. Dude is obsessed! I don't understand why because Berlanti's such a great showrunner, writer. He doesn't need to go there!

I wish Madisongate would have been chucked in favor or watching Ephram's music storyline take off even more. He could have gotten involved with someone through music too. So we had both going on, Ephram having a girlfriend before getting together with Amy and more music stuff. Sure, Madison was into music (if you call her singing music ) but Ephram didn't move his music story forward while dating her. In fact, it was more or less a distraction to be honest.

I really wish we could have received more in season 2 but for whatever reason Berlanti wanted Amy/Tommy, Ephram/Madison, Andy/Linda, all wrong relationships eventually blowing up without much else.

Nope, essentially Madison was used to basically cause future break ups for Ephram/Amy and Andy/Ephram. It wasn't really about her POV at all.

Exactly. It makes zero sense. Ephram never would have been that careless, never, ever. No way. It was really bad writing and construction of the storyline.

Yes, indeed.

secretk

No idea why he does it . Sure it might happen, but I don't think that it's quite often. This story is not very realistic to begin with.

I don't think that they particularly wrote Ephram's involvement with music that well. They wrote him at first as some piano prodigy and then later he didn't have what he needed to go to Julliard. I think that they put themselves into a corner because they didn't want Ephram to leave Everwood and yet they made him too good in music. Then suddenly he wasn't. The music part in Ephram's evolotion was inconsistent.

I have no problem with Ephram being with someone else and even Madison if it ended there without any pregnancy and baby.

Yeah . And I'm OK with that. She wasn't that interesting anyway.

It seriously reminded me of soap operas like The Bold and The Beautiful, the Guiding light and others. It was that bad .

jediwands

Exactly.

Yes, he really went nuts on Arrow... this is how he presented it... you find out in season 1 that Oliver, while with Laurel, cheated on her with this mother of his child once at a party. He just hooked up with her for kicks. At the same time, Oliver was also cheating on Laurel with her very own sister too. What a guy, right? LOL

Anyway, he finds out later on that the chick he randomly slept with was pregnant. She lied and told him she lost the baby, mainly because she knew Oliver was a cheating, irresponsible poor excuse for a human being and didn't want him anywhere near her baby anyway but also because Oliver's mother was threatening her like in a severe, mob style kind of way. Oliver's mother was shady and even criminal. She had power, money, influence and was scary when she did any sort of "business" to be sure. So when Oliver's mother finds out the truth she pays her 1 million dollars to keep her mouth shut and never tell Oliver about it. The woman never cashes the check though.

Laurel, to this day, doesn't even know about this woman (she does know about her sister, the sister he hooked up with and even later dated right in front of Laurel's face ) but not about Oliver impregnating this woman while still with her.

A few episodes ago, in season 4 (I know this because it was a crossover with the Flash) Oliver and Barry see this woman with a boy. Oliver figures it out that she kept the baby and it has to be his son. He tricks her into getting a DNA test and confirms it's his. The mother tells him the only way he can have a relationship with the son is if he tells no one about it. She wants to protect her son. Oliver agrees and lies right to the face of his current girlfriend, Felicity, about it so she has no idea he's secretly seeing a son behind her back.

Isn't Oliver a winner? LOL

Isn't Berlanti obsessed and this Arrow version makes Everwood's Madisongate look like a walk in the park by comparison?

They didn't write Ephram's music storyline properly at all. Such a shame.

I would have endured EM much better had they broken up officially when they did and it was over, without a pregnancy or baby.