break the window

I hated because it seemed like Amy wasn't just giving up on the necklace and why Ephram gave it to her, but it seemed like she was giving up on Ephram herself. Like she never believed they could make it after all the drama with her relationship with Tommy and then him writing her letter to Princeton. It was all really overwhelming for anyone, I think Amy just took it the wrong way and shut down, and shutting Ephram out of her life when she needed him the most.

secretk

They both were hurting because of the Madison/baby drama. This had effects on both of them. The conversation was horrible, but I know that Ephram never meant for Amy to take it this way. I'm not even sure that he was capable of getting what would mean to her if he says it like that. I always thought that in this scene Ephram acted like a hurt little kid that gets to pout and be cynical. And this is exactly what he did. The thing is he was cynical with something very beautiful for Amy, something very valuable. It wasn't about something neutral where she could disagree with him, but still understand that he is not in his best condition and it's his feelings that make him act this way. It was something very personal, very significant for their relationship and he just ripped it off.

Do you ever wonder why they decided to write this scene? I get that they didn't want the baby/Madison drama to be over in one episode, but wasn't this a bit too much? I personally would have gone without the scene in this exact form. Like I guess scene where they decide that they break up. I'm OK with that because well we know that they would end up together in the end. This however was more than just breaking up, this was Ephram saying that he never saw his relationship with Amy that serious (it sounded this way, but I do believe that it wasn't the truth because Ephram had always took this relationship pretty serious even more than what's normal for teens) and this hurts especially when Amy did think that this was serious.

break the window

It wasn't bad enough that Ephram had sex with Madison and they had a baby and the rest that happened. But it as like sticking a knife in the heart of how badly it was going to be for Ephram and Amy regarding the baby stuff. I mean it was hard enough for Amy to realize that ONE Ephram had sex with someone that was more mature, more experienced. And here she is in a corner all by herself with no experience. Then to add the BABY in there was the SECOND thing to make the knife hurt even more. THEN THERE IS THE NECKLACE. Ephram hurt Amy so badly! He was so in love with Amy, he told her in Season 4 after all that mess happened. I can't imagine what Ephram was really thinking.

Ephram and Amy's relationship was serious. It was more serious than most adult relationships. They were each others soulmates and that scene made it look like they never mattered to each other at all

secretk

Ephram was hurt by the betrayal of his dad. This is my theory and I stick to it . I really don't think that if Ephram was in his normal self he would act this way (see how thoughtful and careful he was with her in any other case). I think that he was like that because of the shock he had that:

1. He has a child
2. His father knew and didn't tell him

The thing is that this doesn't make Amy any less hurt. This is the problem. When we are hurt, we are hurt. We don't and we can't think about the reasons behind someone else's actions. We know that we are hurt and we know that their actions or words are painful to endure.

I agree with this. It was quite serious on both ends IMO. A lot of adults don't put that much efforts, thoughts and loyalty into relationships as they did. At moments you could almost forget that they are teens. However they were and that's why sometimes their reactions were so strong because the emotions of the teens are like storm - strong and heavy.

break the window

TOTALLY AGREE!

Ephram changed SO MUCH when he found out the truth of what Andy did to keep Madison out of Ephram's life. He was in a place where he just wanted to not feel anything. He was so hurt that he didn't want to feel anything because it would remind him of how good it felt to be in love with Amy and be her one true person and then he would be reminded of how he got knocked out of that really good feeling. So it was a constant whirlwind of emotions that Ephram couldn't deal with so he just didn't which transcended to him just being a dick to everyone else.

I feel that both are relevant, but the second part (reason why I bolded it) was SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than anything else. Ephram being so closed off wasn't about the baby situation at all, it was that ANDY LIED TO HIM. TO HIS FACE WITH A STRAIGHT FACE. They had come SO FAR from where they were when first getting to Everwood and were almost, I would say, friends. Ephram really wanted to open up to Andy, for the first time. He had never really done that with Julia, not really because he hadn't had experiences yet that would warrant a talk like that with his mom. So he was experience all these wonderful things and HE WANTED to share them with Andy. But Andy ruined that. Andy KNEW what he had done was wrong. He thought it was the best decision.

It goes with the notion: Hurt People, Hurt People. It's the oldest thing in the book. It's how we let our anger out sometimes. Doesn't make it right, it just makes us human. Human's aren't perfect.

Ephram and Amy have the oldest souls story there is. Amy was so far passed her prime when she dated Colin. Yeah it was a suck ass relationship, but it was a still a relationship that Amy went through (kind of more one sided). But I think she learned a lot. I think Amy realized what she wanted and what kind of guy she wanted it from.

Ephram, at such a young age, had to grow up. He was the man around the house. Andy was never there and when he was, he might as well not be. The Great Doctor Brown never ignored anyone...except his family. Ephram had to grow up and realize that his parents were broken. That's a HUGE development. That's one that no kid should deal with not at any age. People who are in their thirties are still affected by a parents divorce. It's not something you just get on with.

Based on those two things, it made them so much more mature. It made them so much more intone with who they wanted as an a life partner and not someone to just hang out with on Saturdays at Mama Joys. It was someone they would want to have their kids go with TO Mama Joys. That's the most important thing.

secretk

I agree with this. There was this apathy in Ephram you know. He wanted to have the "I don't care" attitude. And him acting this way towards Amy was exactly him trying to show how he doesn't care. He tried to not care that he had a son, he tried to not care that Andy lied to him etc. He cared. He cared about all of that, he just didn't want to show it.


I agree with this too . It was shown in the Pilot that Ephram didn't trust Andy and didn't confide in him. He didn't feel free to do so. It took them two years to get connected and slowly Ephram started trusting Andy. Knowing that Andy betrayed his trust startled Ephram. This notion that he is close to his dad fell apart. He felt like he was back in the beginning. Only it hurt him more because he had thought that he could trust Andy. In the Pilot he didn't have this hope.

I also agree with you that Andy knew very well that he was wrong. My theory is that his affair in Season 3 was him acting out. It was eating him inside that he was lying to Ephram and he chose Amanda as distraction.

For sure . Both Ephram and Amy were hurting even before this conversation and this was all new and sudden for them you know. I'm not sure that they were prepared for conversation like that. Both of them had their demons to fight on. Ephram had to accept that he has a son and that his father lied to him. Amy had to accept that the boy she loved, the boy she wanted to spend the rest of her life with had sex with another woman and had baby with her. A baby is something for all life. It wasn't something minor. It was normal for Amy to need time to process this too.

And then this conversation. Ephram was in his defensive mode and in his desire to show how much he doesn't care, he hurt Amy by saying things that were so far from the truth.

Both had lives that prompted them to grow up and mature faster than the normal teens. Ephram lost his mother and he had to take care of Delia because Andy wasn't the most attentive father out there.

Amy had to struggle with Colin's situation. They might have not been for life, but her stress and suffering through his coma time were real for her.

jediwands

This is why I maintain that it balanced out. Amy was going through hell over the Colin situation and she hurt Ephram at times in season 1. Ephram was upset over the baby situation and he took it out on Amy and hurt her tremendously in season 3.

I submit that the pain was way bigger for Amy in season 3 though because they were mutually in love, they were sleeping together, the relationship was intense romantically, mature, very serious compared to season 1 when they were just getting started. Doesn't dimish the times Ephram was hurt but season 3 had a completely different ballpark of pain and suffering given how far they had come. You could feel Amy's heart shattering.

But yes, the beauty of Ephram/Amy is that they battled through everything and made it to the finish line. It was beautiful to see.

break the window

Ephram thought everyone made this decision for him, for Madison to just walk away with his son. Ephram has no idea what he was feeling, how could he justify his anger towards Amy. Last everyone checked, she was still his girlfriend and really had no contact with Madison what so ever. Ephram was so hellbent on just destroying everyone else's world that he didn't care. He just wanted everyone to feel as badly as he does.

Ephram was never one to outwardly show emotion, we have many proofs of that. So to go from regular teenage kid to all of a sudden having a baby with an older woman, it's gonna throw anyone for a loop. He couldn't talk to Andy, that was clear. I was angry at Andy myself. I mean, what if Ephram went to Harold. Sure, Harold's no relation to him, but he's someone older and much wiser and could give Ephram guidance. I think Harold would've been better suited because he's not as close as Andy is. Andy had too many emotions connected to Madison. He shouldn't have been her doctor. Harold should have taken that one, he would've been completely objective. It wouldn't have been his son that was concerned in that matter, neither of his children. Andy was too emotionally connected. What else would he have done? I don't think there is an option that Andy would've gone with.

It was like they were back in New York, Julia had just died and the only parent Ephram had to rely on was Andy. Some parent Andy was. Andy, great man, great doctor, lousy father...until he got to New York. Ephram, all of a sudden, had no idea who his father was. This man who tried SO HARD to get an even keel with them where they could be father and son did the utmost betrayal of anything. If anything, Madison's pregnancy, should not have been Andy's business what so ever. Madison was Andy's son's ex girlfriend. That's it. That's all she should've been. Andy crossed the line, the sad thing is, he never really understood that until Ephram boldly pointed it out to him. Andy didn't know how to just walk away. He was never there for Ephram in New York, he never really got to know Ephram as a kid to grow up and see what kind of a man Ephram was becoming. So to make that decision based on Ephram's life was premature. The only time Andy really started to see Ephram (and Delia) was when Julia died. And hello, smack in the face, Ephram's an adult. Feelings developed, emotions realized, that was it, there was no going back to figure out who it all happened. It was there.

Andy as a doctor, brilliant man, always on point.

Andy as a father, he's lacking ability, but still had room to grow and change.

Andy as a man...dumbass. To say the least.

I don't blame Andy for (some...some) judgements he made regarding the women in his life. He didn't think he would ever have to date once he met Julia. He never considered going on a date with a woman that was not his wife. That he'd have to be new in the game all over again. So yeah, he picked some....well...emotionally unavailable women that more or less stunted his growth in the love department. I don't think he was ignoring Nina, however, I think he was ignoring himself wanting to be happy with another woman that was not Julia.

With that said, I think a lot of his decisions during that time weren't in ANYONE's best interests. I think Andy was just learning to how to do things without a co parent. Trying to understand Ephram, Madison's situation and being a doctor all at the same time. Andy was so used to doing it all, being the Great Doctor Brown. But he failed, it's okay to fail, but it's also necessary to admit you have failed, which is something I don't think Andy realized until Ephram smacked him in the face with it.

I think, even without Madison being pregnant, I think the simple fact of Ephram sleeping with Madison is what disconnected them for a while. To Amy, Ephram had a lot of experience in the intimacy department. So she knew whenever they would have their first time, then she would feel inadequate. She would feel like she had to measure up to something. To Ephram, he never considered anything. Not like he would have to consider Amy's feelings at the time of having sex with Madison, but it was about considering her feelings when they were finally together again.

Then factor in a son. A son that would bind Madison and Ephram together forever. Even though he was put up for adoption, Ephram and Madison still had a child together. You can't take that away no matter how far that little boy is away from them, they're still bonded. That would make anyone's securities blow up like a balloon.

I think it took a long time for Ephram to accept that and realize that he and Amy aren't on the same level. And for girls, it's a HUGE difference in the intimacy department.

(forgot what I was originally talk about...rambling lol)

Amy's feelings were real, no matter how overlooked they were...they were real.

jediwands

This is such a great point. Quite often, this gets overlooked. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen this as a reasoning for Andy to make wrong decisions regarding the Madison pregnancy. You are so right on about that. He was still learning on the fly. I don't care if it had been a couple of years since they were in Everwood. He was still pretty brand new at this stuff. Add in the fact that Andy and Ephram had become very close and I can see why Andy didn't want to mess up Ephram's life. He was wrong keeping the pregnancy from Ephram. 100% dead wrong. But I think it was lack of experience and wanting the very best for Ephram which in his mind meant getting to NYC to study music and being happy in love with Amy.

I have always stood on the fence on this. I will also forever think it was out of character for Ephram to take it out on Amy, too. I could see him being bratty and getting on Amy's nerves due to moodiness and all of that. But for him to treat her like trash, saying he didn't see a forever, that stuff, I just don't see that as the real Ephram Brown even all pissed off at his dad, Madison and dealing with the baby situation. The other point that gets lost is how Amy handled finding out Madison was pregnant. Many girls would have gone crazy, breaking up with their boyfriend if that ever happened, even before they were together. It still would have been something way too heavy to handle. Not Amy. Amy was willing to stick by Ephram no matter what. She probably even loved him more after finding out about it because she had no intention of abandoning him. It's too bad he had to temporarily abandon her but he more than made up for it in early season 4, thankfully.

secretk

I agree. And this exactly I actually understood because something like that had happened to me. Let's just say that adults made decision for me with the idea to spare me some worry. Well they didn't spare it, I just wasn't prepared for the aftermath and I definitely needed time to deal with this. I couldn't act like Ephram because the situation was hurting them as well, but I really was pissed about this.

Yes, for sure this would have been stressful for anyone in Ephram's place . I was pissed at Andy as well. It's a decision that I don't support to be honest. I don't think that this lie made the things good for Ephram. For me it didn't spare him the worry, it just didn't give him time to prepare himself to handle this situation. Instead of having 9 months to get used to the fact that he will have son, he had 5 minutes to comprehend that he has a child that was given for adoption.


Andy didn't understand what he did until he had the blowout with Ephram. Honestly when Ephram showed that he is pissed and Andy was like "Why" I was pissed at Andy. He seriously didn't understand that what he did was wrong? For me Andy acted like Ephram should forgive him for like a day because this is not big deal. It was big deal!

Yes Andy had a right to be pissed at Ephram for getting Madison pregnant. No doubt about that. But not 9 months later after his lie. If he had told Ephram from the beginning he had right to be pissed. 9 months later when he basically lied to him and acted like this is no big deal and it's like lying 3 years old kid about some some candy thing he had no right at all.

I agree .

Oh yeah. In fact Julia making up for him not being parent didn't do him any favors. Andy had to learn quite late what means to be parent. And the older you are, the harder it will be to learn at this. Especially when your kids are old enough to remember that you were not good parent to them.

Sometimes he really was. Him being surprised that Ephram is pissed was one of those moments. I was like Andy have you gone stupid.

I didn't agree with some of his decisions as well. This doesn't mean that I hate him or I can't stand him. Part of the appeal of the series is that the great brilliant doctor Andy Brown has a lot of growing to be even decent father. It's the premise of the show and it's those struggles that his character had that made the series interesting and refreshing and different.

However I think that this was the reason for me why I couldn't see Ephram as brat. Did he have bratty moments? Sure, he had, but there were times where I sided with him and not Andy.

I kind of don't think that this was that big of deal than they made it to be because they didn't talk. In Season 3 Amy and Ephram still hadn't come to a point to have good communication. I think that Amy kind of imagined Ephram being a lot more advanced than he was in this department. If you ask me Colin looked the type of guy to be far more experienced than Ephram. Or say Bright. Ephram had sex with one woman. And I don't think that he had lots lots of sex. So it was kind of in Amy's head. And since they didn't communicate that much in this time it became problem. Ephram didn't know how serious it's for Amy.

However I do claim that all the problems they had in Season 3 was due to poor communication. Something they learnt in Season 4. It comes with them getting older and more mature.

Now that was real issue. Unfortunately there was not that much time from Amy knowing this to Amy/Ephram breakup so they never talked this through. Which was again I think due to their different styles in communication. While Amy is the person to talk through the things, Ephram is the type to not talk and not show emotion. So they needed some adaption to get used to their different styles. It's not something major as a problem, but to some extent I personally believe that the conversation about the infinity necklace wouldn't have been that harsh and hard to watch if they knew their different styles. Ephram just wasn't in the position to have serious conversation about their relationship, but Amy wanted it. So yes they were on different levels which caused both of them pain in the end.

For me it wasn't so much the different level the problem. It was them not always talking to each other about stuff. Them doing stuff they thought the other would want. Examples are the Princeton letter that Ephram did behind Amy's back and Amy trying to protect Ephram once she knew about Madison and the baby. Both did those things because they love each other and care about each other, but in the end it turned out that the other wanted something different. And it's like you can't blame them for loving each other and trying to do what's best for the other, but also you can't blame them that they get frustrated with the other one because they didn't want this .

This happens to me too.

Very real and something that a girl her age shouldn't have to deal with. Grown up women have hard time facing this and she was just a teen.

break the window

I wonder....did Andy really think that Ephram would never find out? That Ephram and Madison would never have crossed paths? I know she was living in a different state, but Everwood isn't off the map, completely

secretk

I think that sometimes Andy was a bit naive and self-centered to the point to not think through things like that. If he had thought seriously about that he might have realized that it was bound to happen, but I don't think that Andy tried to think through this really.

break the window

Andy, in his own way...he wanted to take care of the problem. Which in every way, no matter how you spin in...it's inexcusable of what he did.

secretk

Which was actually the theme of Season 3 if you think about it. Just like Harold wanted to help Amy in his way by asking Ephram to write her Princeton letter, Andy decided to take care of Ephram's problem by not involving him.

Ultimately for me that was part of the problem because both Amy and Ephram didn't interpret those actions as help, but as something different.

Amy interpreted Ephram's Princeton letter as a sign that he doesn't want forever with her and Ephram interpreted Andy's actions as not considering his feelings.

everwoodfan52

Andy felt powerful enough (huge ego) to believe that he could control every situation. So...I'm sure he never thought that his plan to keep Madison away would not work.