[everwoodfan52]

Great thoughts Patricia and Michelle!


I agree with all your points:

Colin would break up with Amy
Layne would discover Ephram and start dating him, making Amy notice Ephram.
Amy would notice Ephram because of their dads being doctors who bicker.
Amy would be immediately drawn to Ephram because of Spiritualism...that the two of them were meant to be soulmates.


I'm just wondering if Amy's snobby friends (Kayla and Paige) would have somehow delayed this getting to know you process because of their negative opinions and comments.
Nah...Amy didn't let them stop her before, so they won't stop her this time.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) Great thoughts Patricia and Michelle! I agree with all your points: Colin would break up with Amy Layne would discover Ephram and start dating him, making Amy notice Ephram. Amy would notice Ephram because of their dads being doctors who bicker. Amy would be immediately drawn to Ephram because of Spiritualism...that the two of them were meant to be soulmates. I'm just wondering if Amy's snobby friends (Kayla and Paige) would have somehow delayed this getting to know you process because of their negative opinions and comments. Nah...Amy didn't let them stop her before, so they won't stop her this time.

Great point about Amy's horrible friends.

But yes, we found out in 1.3 Friendly Fire, she doesn't put up with her friends when they get all stuck up and cruel.

How do you think Bright would react to all of this? We know he was a bully to Ephram because Colin was sick and Bright felt responsible. Without an accident/Colin being sick, he wouldn't feel any loyalty (or guilt) to Colin in this way. Plus, he might find out from Colin, himself, he was going to break up or would break up before Ephram/Amy started connecting.

Without Colin caring and no accident involved... would Bright still be bothered by Ephram/Amy?

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by Wilpen (View Post) Great point about Amy's horrible friends. But yes, we found out in 1.3 Friendly Fire, she doesn't put up with her friends when they get all stuck up and cruel. How do you think Bright would react to all of this? We know he was a bully to Ephram because Colin was sick and Bright felt responsible. Without an accident/Colin being sick, he wouldn't feel any loyalty (or guilt) to Colin in this way. Plus, he might find out from Colin, himself, he was going to break up or would break up before Ephram/Amy started connecting. Without Colin caring and no accident involved... would Bright still be bothered by Ephram/Amy?

I thought of Bright's reaction to Amy showing interest to Ephram. It was indicated in the seriies that Bright was a kind of Bully and he might look down upon Ephram in the beginning as a "weirdo geek". But I don't think he would harass Ephram the way he did in the actual series. There would be no reason to if Colin was not in a coma and dating Amy. He wouldn't feel the guilt and loyalty to Colin. In fact...he may be happy for Amy that she's thinking about another guy after her breakup with Colin. Bright would be happy that Amy was no longer sulking and upset. It certainly would be interesting to see this scenario and what would have happened.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) I thought of Bright's reaction to Amy showing interest to Ephram. It was indicated in the seriies that Bright was a kind of Bully and he might look down upon Ephram in the beginning as a "weirdo geek". But I don't think he would harass Ephram the way he did in the actual series. There would be no reason to if Colin was not in a coma and dating Amy. He wouldn't feel the guilt and loyalty to Colin. In fact...he may be happy for Amy that she's thinking about another guy after her breakup with Colin. Bright would be happy that Amy was no longer sulking and upset. It certainly would be interesting to see this scenario and what would have happened.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Yes, it would have been very interesting to see this play out.

I think what actually did happen in seasons 2/3 might have transpired... as Ephram/Amy are coming closer to getting together, Ephram/Bright are on the path towards a friendship.

I think Bright might have thought of Ephram as geeky on the surface but like Amy, once Bright would get around Ephram, he'd immediately realize he was anything but geeky. He'd be drawn to Ephram's intrigue and energy. I think Bright almost felt burdened given his status and popularity in high school. We saw how his grades suffered. Bright felt happiest when he was getting his high school career back in order, he wasn't the best friend to Colin, he wasn't the popular jock. Bright was at peace when all that superficial BS was gone. He would have been drawn to Ephram... he would have almost felt an energetic peace. He would have naturally moved Ephram's way.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) But yes, we found out in 1.3 Friendly Fire, she doesn't put up with her friends when they get all stuck up and cruel.

There has to be more girls in Everwood that Amy could be friends with than those three. But then I think about the crowd Amy was in. Bright and Colin were in the "it" crowd that everyone wanted to be in. The whole popular gang comes to mind. I'm thinking Amy became friends with them because it was something to do to stay in the world of being Colin's girlfriend. Or, Amy being kind of insecure about herself sometimes didn't think she could do any better? I don't know. I just think Amy should have had better friends that considered her feelings than what everyone else thought.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) How do you think Bright would react to all of this? We know he was a bully to Ephram because Colin was sick and Bright felt responsible. Without an accident/Colin being sick, he wouldn't feel any loyalty (or guilt) to Colin in this way. Plus, he might find out from Colin, himself, he was going to break up or would break up before Ephram/Amy started connecting.

I'm thinking that Bright still would've acted the same way, honestly. Colin wouldn't be in a coma, he would be alive, still dating Amy. I think Bright, and everyone else, was sort of clueless, including Amy, that Colin was going to break up with Amy. I think the truth would've come out from Colin, at some point, when wondering why Bright was bullying Ephram so much. Bright, whether he admitted it or not, he was very protective of Amy. He wouldn't want anything to mess up her relationship with Colin.

My question...Bright had to know that Colin was a jerk. Did Bright know Colin didn't love Amy as she loved Colin and thought the relationship wouldn't last?

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Without Colin caring and no accident involved... would Bright still be bothered by Ephram/Amy?

I think so. I don't think Bright took much stock into how Colin and Amy's relationship was going. He just saw his sister happy being in a relationship with his best friend. They were the three musketeers and Bright would be bothered by that because it would seem that Ephram is there to break up paradise.

Originally Posted by Betty (View Post) I thought of Bright's reaction to Amy showing interest to Ephram. It was indicated in the series that Bright was a kind of Bully and he might look down upon Ephram in the beginning as a "weirdo geek". But I don't think he would harass Ephram the way he did in the actual series. There would be no reason to if Colin was not in a coma and dating Amy. He wouldn't feel the guilt and loyalty to Colin. In fact...he may be happy for Amy that she's thinking about another guy after her breakup with Colin. Bright would be happy that Amy was no longer sulking and upset. It certainly would be interesting to see this scenario and what would have happened.

I think, reading Betty's post was the real reason that Bright was bullying Ephram was because Bright saw the interest Amy had in Ephram. If Amy didn't have any interest in Ephram, there would be no reason for Bright to mess with him. Ephram wouldn't have any way of getting into Amy's heart and get her mind away from Colin. Bright thought he owed it to Colin to keep Amy focused on her relationship with him. Ephram threatened that. When Colin would wake up, Bright wanted to make sure he would have Amy by his side. With Ephram and Amy starting a more than a friendship thing, the chances of Amy being by Colin's side were, well, getting smaller by the day.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia There has to be more girls in Everwood that Amy could be friends with than those three. But then I think about the crowd Amy was in. Bright and Colin were in the "it" crowd that everyone wanted to be in. The whole popular gang comes to mind. I'm thinking Amy became friends with them because it was something to do to stay in the world of being Colin's girlfriend. Or, Amy being kind of insecure about herself sometimes didn't think she could do any better? I don't know. I just think Amy should have had better friends that considered her feelings than what everyone else thought.

Great points. Yes, I feel like Amy was programmed to remain in that Fantasy World which included Amy as the Queen, Colin as the King. She was basically told they were ending up together. So there was a crowd Colin ruled in high school, which included both guys and girls. The girls in addition to Amy were the ones Amy hung around with but never really liked. I just think she accepted the situation she thought was predestined. Really sad if you think about it. That is why the second Ephram came into Amy's world, through Ephram she felt a sense of freedom and peace. She was drawn to Ephram because Ephram was reality. Ephram effortlessly made Amy feel real and free. She felt alive with Ephram. She wasn't programmed anymore in that Fantasy World she thought was her true calling of existence. Ephram saved her if you want to break it down.

Originally Posted by Patricia I'm thinking that Bright still would've acted the same way, honestly. Colin wouldn't be in a coma, he would be alive, still dating Amy. I think Bright, and everyone else, was sort of clueless, including Amy, that Colin was going to break up with Amy. I think the truth would've come out from Colin, at some point, when wondering why Bright was bullying Ephram so much. Bright, whether he admitted it or not, he was very protective of Amy. He wouldn't want anything to mess up her relationship with Colin. My question...Bright had to know that Colin was a jerk. Did Bright know Colin didn't love Amy as she loved Colin and thought the relationship wouldn't last?

Good question. I am not sure. I kind of think it was almost immaterial to Bright because in many ways, he was just as programmed as Amy was. Bright was the popular jock, best friend's with the popular jock King, Colin. So Bright was playing a role as well. Thus, he probably didn't even stop to consider the Colin/Amy relationship and what Colin was feeling. I think Colin was a poser, a great actor too. He probably lead Bright to believe Amy was the love of his life and they would end up together. He would make him believe this until Colin was ready to call it quits. We know he was because Laynie told us as much. So my guess is Bright didn't really know anything and would only find out when Colin was ready. Almost reminds me of the Godfather/Mafia family... the big guy doesn't let anyone see his hand until he's good and ready to play the game, make the move. That's how I viewed Colin.

Originally Posted by Patricia I think so. I don't think Bright took much stock into how Colin and Amy's relationship was going. He just saw his sister happy being in a relationship with his best friend. They were the three musketeers and Bright would be bothered by that because it would seem that Ephram is there to break up paradise.

That's so true. Bright definitely viewed the trio just like you stated and he would probably feel like Ephram was a threat to their little bubble.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Yes, I feel like Amy was programmed to remain in that Fantasy World which included Amy as the Queen, Colin as the King. She was basically told they were ending up together.

That's all Amy knew. I see the story as the three of them were always together. Colin and Bright were friends, Amy had this crush since she was a little kid on the big basketball star at County High and it seemed natural that she would form a relationship with him. Of course whatever Colin did, people just went with it. Even Nina was mesmerized by him and we all know how straightforward thinking she is. So after a while, Amy just believed in whatever Colin said, she believed the fantasy. Since no one ever questioned anything that Colin did, everyone went along with it. After a point, people are too afraid to second guess it. I think Everwood, at least for the younger townspeople, life was built around Bright, Colin and Amy being close. Bright was the basketball star. Colin was Mr. Perfect who happened to play basketball. Amy was the princess who stood beside Colin as his girlfriend and supported Bright along the way. Who would question that. After a while, it just becomes normal. It becomes like breathing, it's just something you do.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) That is why the second Ephram came into Amy's world, through Ephram she felt a sense of freedom and peace. She was drawn to Ephram because Ephram was reality. Ephram effortlessly made Amy feel real and free. She felt alive with Ephram. She wasn't programmed anymore in that Fantasy World she thought was her true calling of existence. Ephram saved her if you want to break it down.

For Amy, Ephram was like coming up for fresh air. She got to look a new picture, she got to feel something different. She got to feel what it was like for a guy to want to know her. I don't think Colin gave really a second thought about Amy's feelings or who she was as a person. Ephram wanted to get to know her, Ephram wanted Amy to talk to him about what she wanted to talk about. Ephram wanted HER! Colin wanted what popularity gave him and it swallowed him up. I think Amy felt free because, as you said Michelle, there was no pressure. I think being Colin's girlfriend had an expectation to a lot of people at county high. She had to act a certain way, she had to talk and walk and say things that might not be true to what Amy was thinking, but then again, she was programmed. Ephram didn't care about all of that. He didn't care about the football games, basketball games or who would be named king and queen at the prom. He cared about how Amy was doing and how Amy was feeling. Amy's first boyfriend was Colin, her first introduction into love and feelings and learning what a relationship was like. So of course meeting Ephram changed all that. Ephram challenged her to think for herself, to feel, to shout out loud what she was feeling. Ephram wanted her to be free.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia That's all Amy knew. I see the story as the three of them were always together. Colin and Bright were friends, Amy had this crush since she was a little kid on the big basketball star at County High and it seemed natural that she would form a relationship with him. Of course whatever Colin did, people just went with it. Even Nina was mesmerized by him and we all know how straightforward thinking she is. So after a while, Amy just believed in whatever Colin said, she believed the fantasy. Since no one ever questioned anything that Colin did, everyone went along with it. After a point, people are too afraid to second guess it. I think Everwood, at least for the younger townspeople, life was built around Bright, Colin and Amy being close. Bright was the basketball star. Colin was Mr. Perfect who happened to play basketball. Amy was the princess who stood beside Colin as his girlfriend and supported Bright along the way. Who would question that. After a while, it just becomes normal. It becomes like breathing, it's just something you do.

So well said. Couldn’t agree more. In a way it makes sense Nina would be okay with King Colin since she had her own horrible version in her ex-husband. On the other hand, like you said Patricia... her thinking was very clear. We know she called Andy out on his BS multiple times. I guess back in season 1 she played a part in this fantasy world because she was still married to a jerk (and bought the high school sweetheart at any cost bit). It felt like an ‘arranged marriage’ type of deal in Everwood. In a way, Amy could have suffered the same fate as Nina had she married Colin. She would have been stuck with a jerk too that was picked for her. She’d be miserable but my guess is she’d try to make it work for as long as possible which is really sad. Thankfully she snapped out of the fantasy world. Ephram helped her with this.

I’m actually shocked Bright didn’t suffer more side effects given the guilt he felt over Colin’s death. He was trapped in the fantasy world too. In season 1 when bullying Ephram he almost looked programmed. It was all he knew... he had to protect Amy from ‘outsider’ Ephram who entered their fantasy world and was considered an intruder.

Ephram snapped both Amy and Bright out of this alternate universe. In a way he snapped Colin out of it too shortly before his passing.

Originally Posted by Patricia For Amy, Ephram was like coming up for fresh air. She got to look a new picture, she got to feel something different. She got to feel what it was like for a guy to want to know her. I don't think Colin gave really a second thought about Amy's feelings or who she was as a person. Ephram wanted to get to know her, Ephram wanted Amy to talk to him about what she wanted to talk about. Ephram wanted HER! Colin wanted what popularity gave him and it swallowed him up. I think Amy felt free because, as you said Michelle, there was no pressure. I think being Colin's girlfriend had an expectation to a lot of people at county high. She had to act a certain way, she had to talk and walk and say things that might not be true to what Amy was thinking, but then again, she was programmed. Ephram didn't care about all of that. He didn't care about the football games, basketball games or who would be named king and queen at the prom. He cared about how Amy was doing and how Amy was feeling. Amy's first boyfriend was Colin, her first introduction into love and feelings and learning what a relationship was like. So of course meeting Ephram changed all that. Ephram challenged her to think for herself, to feel, to shout out loud what she was feeling. Ephram wanted her to be free.

Absolutely.

I think Vegetative State was a turning point for Amy. She desperately wanted Ephram to give the green light so she could stop hanging on. She wanted to be with Ephram and deep down she knew the situation with Colin was fake, it wasn’t real. You could feel her panic and anxiety. She wanted the release and freedom. She wanted to be with Ephram and put an end to the fantasy day world for good. Timing wasn’t right but Amy craved it so much.

[jediwands]

Anyone have a new discussion question?

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by Wilpen (View Post) Anyone have a new discussion question?

How about.....Were Ruth and Jacob Hoffman justified in their criticism of Andy and desire to take Ephram back with them?

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) How about.....Were Ruth and Jacob Hoffman justified in their criticism of Andy and desire to take Ephram back with them?

Like it!

[jediwands]

Okay, so new topic question:

Were Ruth and Jacob Hoffman justified in their criticism of Andy and desire to take Ephram back with them?

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Wilpen (View Post) Okay, so new topic question: Were Ruth and Jacob Hoffman justified in their criticism of Andy and desire to take Ephram back with them?

I remember in Turf Wars, immediately it was well known that Andy hadn't called them and they wondered why. Andy said he was planning on going there but wanted to settle in first and get the house ready which was obviously a lame excuse and they saw right through it. The entire episode pretty much featured the Hoffman's reminding Andy that he was an absent father in NYC. I wasn't happy with Ephram in this episode though because he really played his Grandparents in a way to get back at his father. He made the situation appear as bad as it gets and the audience knew it wasn't as bad as it appeared in Everwood.

That said, I understand why they weren't very happy with Andy and had the desire to take Ephram back with them. They knew what Andy was like as a father in NYC, they were scared he'd be the same way in Everwood. They didn't know that things were getting better and like I said, Ephram didn't help one bit, lol. They also lost their daughter. I didn't like how abrupt and blunt they were, but Andy did deserve some pokes due to NYC and they didn't know he was on the right track just yet in Everwood.

So I can see why they were unsure and blunt with Andy. Their approach might have been cold and calculating, but I can understand why they assumed Andy wasn't changing and they wanted to absolutely take care of their Grandchildren. It was a tough time for them as well due to Julia. Everyone could have basically handled things differently but NYC Andy was real and they were concerned.

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by Wilpen (View Post) I remember in Turf Wars, immediately it was well known that Andy hadn't called them and they wondered why. Andy said he was planning on going there but wanted to settle in first and get the house ready which was obviously a lame excuse and they saw right through it. The entire episode pretty much featured the Hoffman's reminding Andy that he was an absent father in NYC. I wasn't happy with Ephram in this episode though because he really played his Grandparents in a way to get back at his father. He made the situation appear as bad as it gets and the audience knew it wasn't as bad as it appeared in Everwood. That said, I understand why they weren't very happy with Andy and had the desire to take Ephram back with them. They knew what Andy was like as a father in NYC, they were scared he'd be the same way in Everwood. They didn't know that things were getting better and like I said, Ephram didn't help one bit, lol. They also lost their daughter. I didn't like how abrupt and blunt they were, but Andy did deserve some pokes due to NYC and they didn't know he was on the right track just yet in Everwood. So I can see why they were unsure and blunt with Andy. Their approach might have been cold and calculating, but I can understand why they assumed Andy wasn't changing and they wanted to absolutely take care of their Grandchildren. It was a tough time for them as well due to Julia. Everyone could have basically handled things differently but NYC Andy was real and they were concerned.

I agree with every one of your points, Michelle.

Ruth and Jacob were loving hands on grandparents...as was their daughter being a loving hands on Mom. Andy may have been loving, but was definitely not a hands on present Dad. Perhaps if Andy had remained in NYC with the family, Ruth and Jacob would have been less concerned about Ephram, but the fact that Ephram was so far away from them and exhibited a very unhappy demeanor they were understandably upset! They needed to save their grandson! How could they help him if he was so far away from them. That must have been so hard for them...their extended family was torn away from them. They lost their daughter, and did not want to also lose Ephram. And you're right...Ephram played this up as much as he could!

I do believe that Jacob could have been a little more diplomatic and gentle with Andy in how he criticized him. After all...Andy was lost and grieving as well.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) I agree with every one of your points, Michelle. Ruth and Jacob were loving hands on grandparents...as was their daughter being a loving hands on Mom. Andy may have been loving, but was definitely not a hands on present Dad. Perhaps if Andy had remained in NYC with the family, Ruth and Jacob would have been less concerned about Ephram, but the fact that Ephram was so far away from them and exhibited a very unhappy demeanor they were understandably upset! They needed to save their grandson! How could they help him if he was so far away from them. That must have been so hard for them...their extended family was torn away from them. They lost their daughter, and did not want to also lose Ephram. And you're right...Ephram played this up as much as he could! I do believe that Jacob could have been a little more diplomatic and gentle with Andy in how he criticized him. After all...Andy was lost and grieving as well.

^ Totally agree with everything you said.

One thing that sucked was we basically never heard from the Grandparents again, LOL. I guess we are to assume contact and communication took place off the screen. Still, it would’ve been nice seeing them come to visit a few more times. Of course Ephram/Amy spent time with them in NYC season 3 which was good. But we also didn’t meet Andy’s estranged father until late season 4.

Everwood was a near perfect series, but my biggest nitpick was not seeing more extended family from NYC coming to Everwood for a visit.