[jediwands]

Great back and forth, you guys.

I also truly believe Madison never would have told Ephram had she not bumped into him. It didn't even seem like she was struggling with her decision until she met up with Andy. That is why I remember back in the day people wondered if she only told Ephram to stick it to Andy. What do you guys think? Do you even think she told him FOR Ephram or was it mostly due to anger at Andy?

I don't think she ever would have told Ephram. Also... great add on question Patricia... I don't even think Andy would have told Ephram either. It seems like he didn't even check up on what Madison decided to do. I honestly think he was content with Ephram not knowing because like you said, Jerry, he truly thought he was protecting Ephram, right or wrong. It was a betrayal, I totally agree, but in Andy's mind he was doing the right thing. Great point about his bleeding ulcer... his bleeding ulcer and even dating a stroke patient's wife, were both side effects of the heavy guilt he carried over the entire situation. I know I sound like a broken record but if Ephram and Madison would have listened to Andy from the start, they wouldn't have dated (illegally) and Madison wouldn't have gotten pregnant. It annoys me given this reality. That said, Andy's decisions were definitely not the best even if I do believe he thought he was protecting his son.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia That being said, I have a hypothetical question....maybe on our next discussion. What if Julia got pregnant with a third baby and had an abortion and Andy didn't find out about it until after moving the kids to Everwood? Coming from the idea that Julia was basically a single parent because Andy was working all the time. awe, thanks! I posted another question above. Hopefully that brings a good discussion too

It will and thank you!

We will tackle this awesome question next!

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Do you even think she told him FOR Ephram or was it mostly due to anger at Andy?

I think it was more out of anger at Andy than wanting Ephram to know. As much as many of us dislike Madison and the whole Madisongate storyline, Andy treated her pretty horribly, both when she told him when she was pregnant and later in New York. Overall, Andy really did handle everything concerning Madison horribly from the minute he hired her as Delia's babysitter.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I think it was more out of anger at Andy than wanting Ephram to know. As much as many of us dislike Madison and the whole Madisongate storyline, Andy treated her pretty horribly, both when she told him when she was pregnant and later in New York. Overall, Andy really did handle everything concerning Madison horribly from the minute he hired her as Delia's babysitter.

I think it was out of anger at Andy too.

Andy should have fired Madison the moment she was in babysitter-mode yelling at Andy and Ephram. I couldn’t believe how arrogant and out of line she was. She was hired to do a job, one job which was taking care of her employer’s young girl and two seconds into the hire she’s screaming at her boss and son IN THEIR HOME, not to mention seducing employer’s son later.

Andy made a lot of mistakes when he found out an adult woman got pregnant by his underage son, but his biggest one was not firing her after day 1. I will forever believe Madison is to blame for 95% of the situation. I’m not giving Andy a free pass but she’s damn lucky the authorities weren’t involved when she was engaging in a sexual relationship with a boy. Andy made bad decisions but I’ll always blame Madison primarily for her horrible, unethical behavior.

[everwoodfan52]

I cannot disagree with any of you regarding this question. Madison would have said nothing to Ephram about the baby if she had not bumped into him in NYC. I don't even think Madison would have told Ephram about the baby in NYC if Andy had not pretty much told her to tell him...to tell him everything. The rest was inevitable...unfortunately.

As far as Andy telling Ephram if Madison hadn't done it...no. Never. Things were going too well wih he and Ephram and he would no way intentionally ruin that.

[jediwands]

But then there is... Harold and Amy's involvement... we know they both knew. Amy was planning on telling him after NYC. So Ephram was finding out no matter what.

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) But then there is... Harold and Amy's involvement... we know they both knew. Amy was planning on telling him after NYC. So Ephram was finding out no matter what.

That is true. Forgot about that!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) That is true. Forgot about that!

Yeah! There's no way they were not telling him.

That said... could you see a scenario where Andy asks Amy not to tell Ephram? If so, how would Harold feel about that?

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) But then there is... Harold and Amy's involvement... we know they both knew. Amy was planning on telling him after NYC. So Ephram was finding out no matter what.

I forgot about that too. I don't see what that would have gained Amy, though, because he would still be mad that she knew before he did, which is why he got so mad when he found out that Amy knew that Madison was pregnant after he got back from his trip to New York. Harold never should have told her. Ephram might have been in a better frame of mind than he was when he came back from New York, but he would still be upset and angry when he found out the news no matter what.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I forgot about that too. I don't see what that would have gained Amy, though, because he would still be mad that she knew before he did, which is why he got so mad when he found out that Amy knew that Madison was pregnant after he got back from his trip to New York. Harold never should have told her. Ephram might have been in a better frame of mind than he was when he came back from New York, but he would still be upset and angry when he found out the news no matter what.

Totally agree Harold never should have told Amy.

Imagine if Amy knew and never told him... Ephram/Amy get married several years later. However 10/15 years down the road Ephram somehow finds out... Madison tells him or maybe his son found him. Ephram also finds out Amy knew all along. They would probably divorce.

Ephram and Amy were emotionally connected. I don’t think Amy could have kept it from him. He suspected something was wrong before he left for NYC. She could barely keep it quiet before NYC. Amy would have felt guilt and pain not telling a Ephram.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Totally agree Harold never should have told Amy. Imagine if Amy knew and never told him... Ephram/Amy get married several years later. However 10/15 years down the road Ephram somehow finds out... Madison tells him or maybe his son found him. Ephram also finds out Amy knew all along. They would probably divorce. Ephram and Amy were emotionally connected. I don’t think Amy could have kept it from him. He suspected something was wrong before he left for NYC. She could barely keep it quiet before NYC. Amy would have felt guilt and pain not telling a Ephram.

That's a very good point Michelle. The truth was bound to come out sooner or later. No matter how you look at it, the Madisongate storyline was a huge disaster for everyone involved and it never should have taken place.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I also truly believe Madison never would have told Ephram had she not bumped into him. It didn't even seem like she was struggling with her decision until she met up with Andy. That is why I remember back in the day people wondered if she only told Ephram to stick it to Andy. What do you guys think? Do you even think she told him FOR Ephram or was it mostly due to anger at Andy?

Thinking about it now, when she was SO OPEN with everything that happened. I think it was more about Madison clearing her conscience. I'm sure Madison had major guilt for doing what she did. I don't think she was telling Ephram for Ephram, I think it was about her and Andy. She really hated the way Andy handled things. But honestly, what else was he supposed to do? His teenage son's over aged girlfriend comes to him on a random day and says she's pregnant? Are they supposed to have a baby shower and have sing along songs? Madison was stupid to go to Andy first. She should've gone to Ephram first, but that is at touchy subject given that he was only 16 or so at the time. The one thing that really gets me is that she just let Andy do everything. Didn't she think she would never see Ephram again? She's living in New York that not only is the place where he grew up but also has the best music school in the country? It's a small world, she couldn't avoid him forever. I just think if Madison didn't want to keep the baby, which was probalby never her plan to begin with, she should've just never gone to Andy. Leave well enough alone and give the baby up for adoption. That's what happened in the end anyway. That kid will never know who his real parents were.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I don't think she ever would have told Ephram. I don't even think Andy would have told Ephram either. It seems like he didn't even check up on what Madison decided to do. I honestly think he was content with Ephram not knowing because like you said, Jerry, he truly thought he was protecting Ephram, right or wrong. It was a betrayal, I totally agree, but in Andy's mind he was doing the right thing. Great point about his bleeding ulcer... his bleeding ulcer and even dating a stroke patient's wife, were both side effects of the heavy guilt he carried over the entire situation. I know I sound like a broken record but if Ephram and Madison would have listened to Andy from the start, they wouldn't have dated (illegally) and Madison wouldn't have gotten pregnant. It annoys me given this reality. That said, Andy's decisions were definitely not the best even if I do believe he thought he was protecting his son.

If Ehpram wasn't always so hellbent on going against whatever Andy said, then maybe the baby just would not exist. Ephram, at the time, was all about whatever Andy didn't want him to do whether it was not study for a test or date a girl who was too old for him. I'm not saying it's all Ephram's fault, Madison should be bare some of the responsibility too. It's not like it doesn't take two people to do what they did. Madison new it was wrong. How embarrassing was it that her friends took her out for her birthday to a club and Ephram...just couldn't go. The relationship was doomed from the start. I felt really bad for Ephram. He had a girlfriend, they were...sexually active...and then he gets punched in the gut for being reminded of his age. That was the low point, I think.

We all know Madison was a heartless bitch. Let's just get that out there. BUt how could Andy, after all him and Ephram have worked on their relationship, how could he hide this from him. Ephram was considering Andy a friend and not just a father that he had to get along with in spite of everything else. The bleeding ulcer, yes the affair was bad, especially the circumstances that went along with how they were connected. I think it hurt Andy more that he was lying to Ephram. Ephram created a life, a life that is living and breathing and learning things. Ephram deserved to know. Could Andy really never tell Ephram? What happens when Ephram (we know he'll marry her lol) and Amy have children. Ephram could say something "this is our first baby" or something like that. How can Andy hide the fact that Ephram was already a father. Sure we can debate all day long about fathering, not knowing, whatever...but he had a son out there. How could Andy have a smile on his face knowing that Ephram didn't know half of what he was supposed to know?

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Yeah! There's no way they were not telling him. That said... could you see a scenario where Andy asks Amy not to tell Ephram? If so, how would Harold feel about that?

She would think about it, but she was stronger then Madison and would not let Andy dictate what she thought was right.

Regarding Harold....he had kept Andy's secret up until then, and would probably tell Amy that he trusts her to make a good decision as to what to do.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Totally agree Harold never should have told Amy.

Reminds of the same instance when Jake told Andy about Ephram getting an STD test. it's a doctor/patient confidentiality. What gave Harold the right to share that news with Amy. Andy shared the news in confidence with a fellow colleague. It was no business of Harold to repeat the information to anyone.

Then if Madison or Amy didn't tell Ephram, Amy would have. How much worse could it have gotten. The current girlfriend tells the guy that he got his previous girlfriend pregnant and the baby got put up for adoption, while...guy had no idea the previous girlfriend was pregnant. So I mean the puzzle just gets more jigsaw with every component. There was no easier way out of this. The baby existed, Ephram was 16 years old, Madison was a twit in the process. Madison should have never went to Andy in the first place. How did she think it was going to go if she told the father of her ex boyfriend that she was pregnant? It's clear that Madison was afraid to tell Ephram, because only then, it occured to her that Ephram was a mere 16 years old.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Imagine if Amy knew and never told him... Ephram/Amy get married several years later. However 10/15 years down the road Ephram somehow finds out... Madison tells him or maybe his son found him. Ephram also finds out Amy knew all along. They would probably divorce.

I don't see Amy and Ephram the type of couple to divorce. However, I do think it would take an incredibly long time for Ephram to forgive Amy for not telling him. They would have a strained and possibly consider divorce. But in time, I think Ephram would realize that Amy's heart was in the right place. In the end, I think, Ephram would be most angry at Andy for handling it the way he did since he was the first person of Ephram's world to find out about it.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Ephram and Amy were emotionally connected. I don’t think Amy could have kept it from him. He suspected something was wrong before he left for NYC. She could barely keep it quiet before NYC. Amy would have felt guilt and pain not telling a Ephram.

It's not in Amy's nature to hold back, honestly.

[Jerry D]

Brilliant posts Patricia. I’ll revisit this later, but I do understand why Madison went to Andy. A lot of us talk about how she was an adult having a sexual relationship with an under-aged teenager, but she was probably a teenager herself or 21 at the most, so she also was very young and she was probably vulnerable and scared and she wasn’t sure who to turn to, and so she turned to Andy, who was a doctor and someone that she looked up to, and he was also Ephram’s father. But when she did go to Andy, he pretty much told her to get lost and he asked her if she was sure that Ephram was the father, and he offered to pay her off and he told her to not tell Ephram to “protect his innocence” but his “innocence” went out the door when he allowed Ephram to date Madison and they started having sex, so that ship had sailed and he had himself to blame for that. Andy really handled the whole Madisongate story horribly from beginning to end and I wish it all had never happened.