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Old 09-05-2017, 05:52 PM
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Great thoughts, you guys.

Yes, I do view Julia as strong woman but as their marriage crumbled more and more she pretty much gave up and went to someone else for emotional support while embracing her children even more. I could also see her sort of playing it a certain way with Andy to try and connect and get him to see the light. It just didn't work. That is why when she told Andy about Everwood, it really was almost like she knew she wasn't going to be around for the long haul (Spiritually she just knew) and probably figured Everwood would save her children because they would eventually have a real father.

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Old 09-06-2017, 05:54 PM
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Excellent thoughts Michelle. Yes, I think people often do know that they won't be there and they take steps to make sure that their loved ones are in a good place.

One thing that struck me when I watched the Ephram and Amy scene that Betty posted is just how incredibly talented all the actors on this show were, and how they were light years ahead of the actors that you'd typically find in a WB/CW show. Just look at how wonderful and poignant Emily was in that scene, and how she just broke our hearts conveying how brokenhearted Amy was by Ephram's cruel words and coldness. As the saying goes, she hit a home run in that scene and gave us an unforgettable performance, all at the tender age of 18. Everwood really had it all, incredible writing and dialog and incredibly talented actors to depict the characters that won over all of our hearts.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:15 PM
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Excellent thoughts Michelle. Yes, I think people often do know that they won't be there and they take steps to make sure that their loved ones are in a good place.
I strongly believe this too. I can actually recall many moments with loved ones that have passed on. Pulling everything together, on some level they had to have known and it was sort of an indirect preparation. Looking back on this stuff relieves some stress and sadness too because it truly does seem like this was all meant to be.

On Everwood, Julia really did behave in this manner too. The persistence and the way she pointed out Everwood was profound. Of course, Andy's encounters with her in season 1 too. I know Berlanti basically left it up to our own interpretation whether Andy was truly interacting with her. My belief is he certainly was. I really liked the Spiritual aspect of this show. Ephram/Amy were constantly written in a very Spiritual/emotionally connected way too. I will always firmly believe Berlanti learned from Dawson's Creek, writing Ephram/Amy in a way that Kevin probably intended to write Dawson/Joey. That is the one thing I can thank Dawson's Creek for... I believe indirectly Ephram/Amy was created as a result of the mistakes on that show.

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One thing that struck me when I watched the Ephram and Amy scene that Betty posted is just how incredibly talented all the actors on this show were, and how they were light years ahead of the actors that you'd typically find in a WB/CW show. Just look at how wonderful and poignant Emily was in that scene, and how she just broke our hearts conveying how brokenhearted Amy was by Ephram's cruel words and coldness. As the saying goes, she hit a home run in that scene and gave us an unforgettable performance, all at the tender age of 18. Everwood really had it all, incredible writing and dialog and incredibly talented actors to depict the characters that won over all of our hearts.
Outstanding thoughts, Jerry. I agree wholeheartedly. If you quickly scan some of the present shows on TV... they are not close to the quality we had in Everwood, both in writing, acting talent, production, etc. Honestly, the only present show I can connect to that has "Everwood-like Qualities" would be Chesapeake Shores. It's not even on a main network either. So many people are missing out on quality TV. Everwood was so unique. It's really difficult to copy such flawlessness. The acting, writing, production was so good on Everwood, I don't even think the WB and later, the CW could wrap their brains around the talent and quality. It is like they didn't comprehend because their formula for the network wasn't to produce such quality... they wanted teen soaps, way lower quality with hot characters instead of the brilliant aspects we had in Everwood. It is almost as if they rejected the show as a result.

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Old 09-19-2017, 01:47 PM
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Here's a new episode discussion question:

What storyline do you feel wasn't executed properly? How would you have changed the storyline instead?
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:55 PM
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I think the one storyline that will always bother me is Ephram/Amy breaking up and Ephram taking everything out on Amy after the Madison pregnancy bomb exploded. He says as much during that scene with Andy shortly after he returned from Europe. I wish it all would have gone down differently. I would have preferred Ephram being furious at both Andy and Madison (they were the ones that deceived and hurt him) and more or less just distant with Amy instead as a result. I wish he never would have laughed during that Infinity necklace scene as Amy's heart was breaking. I would have preferred Ephram telling Amy he didn't want to break up but needed time and space. He could have even gone to Europe too. Ephram could have reassured Amy he didn't want to lose her, she wasn't at fault for what went down, but he just needed time away from his father, to gain peace again and to think. Sort of like the end of season 2 when he needed to go to NYC but wanted her to wait for him. It could have kind of went down in that manner. Amy would have been saddened Ephram was leaving and there would have been some drama but not a full on break up. They could have even kept in touch while he was in Europe, especially since Amy's mom was sick as I always found it so out of character that Ephram left without even checking in with Amy and Bright on her treatment/progress. It wasn't just Amy's mom, it was Bright's too. He abandoned them during a really tough time period. I just can't imagine he wouldn't have talked to them about how their mom was doing while he was gone.

Ephram would have returned, they would be slightly out of sync but would still be together slowly working on things... together. I would have preferred this so much. It also would have made sense. Ephram/Amy defeated so many obstacles in their path in the past... Colin's health, different groups of friends, Colin's death, Amy's depression, dating other people... there was no doubt they could get through this as well... we know they ultimately did but not before a break up and restart with Ephram coming across as cold and somewhat nasty. I much would have preferred that they stayed together romantically but took a slight break while Ephram went away and then moved forward together (even with a few kinks) at the beginning of season 4. It would have been the unique and refreshing way to handle the storyline. Plus, we would have gotten Ephram/Amy together romantically for another full season before the series concluded.

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Old 09-19-2017, 02:38 PM
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Thanks for the new thread, Koni!! Great question, Michelle. I am going to give it much thought!
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:37 PM
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I completely agree with you Michelle. Brilliant post. I never understood why Ephram took out his anger on Amy, who really had nothing to do with the Madison pregnancy reveal and Andy’s ordering Madison not to tell Ephram about her pregnancy. I could understand his angry feelings toward Andy and Madison, but not Amy. His actions toward her after Madisongate were so unnecessarily cruel and hurtful and it did real and almost permanent damage to both their friendship and their romantic relationship, and as a result we never got to see them together again romantically until the very last scene of the very last episode of the show, so as an Ephram and Amy fan, I’ll always feel cheated. What’s worse is that if we had gotten another season of the show, Ephram and Amy still wouldn’t have reunited at the end of Season Four, and we wouldn’t have seen them together until sometime in Season Five, and the Ferris Wheel reunion scene we loved would have never happened, and poor Amy would have been waiting by that Ferris Wheel all alone while Ephram talked to Madison.

I honestly think that Madisongate was a huge mistake and it did nearly irreparable damage to the key relationships on the show, and it made Ephram look like a cruel and heartless person. What I especially didn’t like is unlike the other relationships on the show that came and went, like Andy and Linda, and Andy and Amanda, and Amy and Tommy, we were never allowed to be rid of Madison, who was clearly the most despised character on the show. Ephram and Madison’s relationship was wrong from the start, and it should have just ended and we never should have heard from her again, but instead Madisongate loomed over Season Four like a ticking time bomb and when that bomb went off, it did so much harm to Ephram’s relationship with both Andy and Amy, and in many ways the show was never the same.

If Madisongate had to happen, I think the scenario you described Michelle would have worked much better, where Ephram told Amy that he needed some time to sort things out and he needed some time alone, and he wouldn’t have hurt her so heartlessly and unnecessarily, and they wouldn’t have broken up, and we wouldn’t have had to see Ephram and Amy estranged and apart at the end of Season Three and all of Season Four, which turned out to be the last season of the show.
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Old 09-20-2017, 04:56 AM
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I completely agree with you Michelle. Brilliant post. I never understood why Ephram took out his anger on Amy, who really had nothing to do with the Madison pregnancy reveal and Andy’s ordering Madison not to tell Ephram about her pregnancy. I could understand his angry feelings toward Andy and Madison, but not Amy. His actions toward her after Madisongate were so unnecessarily cruel and hurtful and it did real and almost permanent damage to both their friendship and their romantic relationship,
Amy had virtually nothing to do with Madisongate. If anything, Amy's shocked feelings on Ephram impregnating Madison were swept under the rug. She didn't even have time to react to the shock that the guy she loved impregnated someone else shortly before they got together romantically. Her thoughts and feelings were just ignored. So not only was Amy unable to react the way she wanted to, but she was a punching bag for Ephram as he dealt with his anger towards his father and Madison. It wasn't fair. Yes, not only did they break up romantically, but their friendship was largely affected as well. It took a while for them to even rebuild their friendship, let alone reunite romantically. The damage caused by how Ephram reacted to the pregnancy (and took it out on Amy) is incredibly frustrating because it didn't have to be.

Quote:
and as a result we never got to see them together again romantically until the very last scene of the very last episode of the show, so as an Ephram and Amy fan, I’ll always feel cheated. What’s worse is that if we had gotten another season of the show, Ephram and Amy still wouldn’t have reunited at the end of Season Four, and we wouldn’t have seen them together until sometime in Season Five, and the Ferris Wheel reunion scene we loved would have never happened, and poor Amy would have been waiting by that Ferris Wheel all alone while Ephram talked to Madison.
I couldn't even imagine having that Ferris Wheel scene with Amy standing there alone and Ephram/Amy not reuniting because of lame Madison back in the picture temporarily stirring up even more trouble since it was how she was wired. So basically we really were stuck. We received a beautiful Ephram/Amy ending but were cheated on not seeing them reunited for long and if a season 5 would have transpired, we probably wouldn't have seen a reunion until the end of season 5 at the earliest with Madison's mug on the screen at the beginning of season 5.

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I honestly think that Madisongate was a huge mistake and it did nearly irreparable damage to the key relationships on the show, and it made Ephram look like a cruel and heartless person.
So unnecessary and easily the biggest mistake the show ever made.

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What I especially didn’t like is unlike the other relationships on the show that came and went, like Andy and Linda, and Andy and Amanda, and Amy and Tommy, we were never allowed to be rid of Madison, who was clearly the most despised character on the show.
That is the most frustrating part to the character of Madison. She was intensely despised by the vast majority of the fans and we couldn't get rid of her. If she would have had a storyline like Tommy... annoying but permanently gone never to return that's one thing. I still would have loathed Ephram/Madison but at least she would have left permanently not to be heard from again. We would have had a little over two seasons without the witch on our screen. How glorious would that have been? Instead, she lingered like a serpent circling around, waiting to cause as much chaos as possible well after her illegal relationship with Ephram ended. It would have been a nightmare seeing her in season 5 even for a few episodes. It would have felt like a hellish eternity.

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Ephram and Madison’s relationship was wrong from the start, and it should have just ended and we never should have heard from her again, but instead Madisongate loomed over Season Four like a ticking time bomb and when that bomb went off, it did so much harm to Ephram’s relationship with both Andy and Amy, and in many ways the show was never the same.
Madison was Everwood's darkest, most ridiculous character. She never went away and every major relationship on the show was affected by her presence. That is why I will never understand how anyone can think having Madison around was a good thing. She made a joke out of Andy going into his home as an employer and essentially seducing his underrage son, not listening to his request to stay away from Ephram romantically. She confused Delia given her relationship with her brother. She caused break ups between Andy/Ephram and Ephram/Amy. If the moron would have stayed away from Ephram from the start like most sane, responsible adults would have when entering someone's home professionally, the pregnancy and rest of the nightmare never would have happened. Madison was to blame for everything. She was the worst thing that ever happened to this show.

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If Madisongate had to happen, I think the scenario you described Michelle would have worked much better, where Ephram told Amy that he needed some time to sort things out and he needed some time alone, and he wouldn’t have hurt her so heartlessly and unnecessarily, and they wouldn’t have broken up, and we wouldn’t have had to see Ephram and Amy estranged and apart at the end of Season Three and all of Season Four, which turned out to be the last season of the show.
Exactly. Ephram/Amy found a way to maintain a connection even when Colin came out of his coma and was attempting to get back at a normal life. They still found a way to maintain a friendship and exist in that gray area due to romantic feelings. They maintained a connection throughout Amy's depression. They found ways to stay connected that early on in the series. They finally got together romantically at the end of season 2 and spent most of season 3 showing the audience what we already knew... they were truly in love and perfect for each other romantically. Thus, when Madisongate happened, given how much they had been through before this time, it was way more realistic for them to stay together romantically while Ephram dealt with the aftermath of Madisongate. They were too strong for a break up. It's a shame they didn't stay together because it would have made way more sense, not to mention how much more we would have seen from our favorite couple before the series concluded.

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Old 09-20-2017, 05:11 AM
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Ephram would have returned, they would be slightly out of sync but would still be together slowly working on things... together. I would have preferred this so much. It also would have made sense. Ephram/Amy defeated so many obstacles in their path in the past... Colin's health, different groups of friends, Colin's death, Amy's depression, dating other people... there was no doubt they could get through this as well... we know they ultimately did but not before a break up and restart with Ephram coming across as cold and somewhat nasty. I much would have preferred that they stayed together romantically but took a slight break while Ephram went away and then moved forward together (even with a few kinks) at the beginning of season 4. It would have been the unique and refreshing way to handle the storyline. Plus, we would have gotten Ephram/Amy together romantically for another full season before the series concluded.
Ephram was extremely nasty/indifferent/and Insensitive before he left for Europe. His insensitivity included his own sister. Ephram was in a self centered zone where he was pissed because of Andy and Madison and he took it out on Amy. During this time only his feelings mattered to him.
You're right. Ephram could have left for Europe under less nasty circumstances and when he returned his mind could have been cleared enough to realize that Amy was worth fighting for again. A whole season of those two together would have been so much nicer than the last few minutes of a single episode.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:17 AM
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Ephram was extremely nasty/indifferent/and Insensitive before he left for Europe. His insensitivity included his own sister. Ephram was in a self centered zone where he was pissed because of Andy and Madison and he took it out on Amy. During this time only his feelings mattered to him.
You're right. Ephram could have left for Europe under less nasty circumstances and when he returned his mind could have been cleared enough to realize that Amy was worth fighting for again. A whole season of those two together would have been so much nicer than the last few minutes of a single episode.
Good point that even poor Delia was an innocent victim in all of this as well. That poor girl had to see a very confusing relationship between her adult babysitter and underrage brother as well which she simply didn't understand. The aftermath and end result of this relationship was something that was taken out on her as well which was awful. Ephram never should have taken things out on both Amy and Delia. He should have protected them instead of hurt them.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:22 AM
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I honestly think that Madisongate was a huge mistake and it did nearly irreparable damage to the key relationships on the show, and it made Ephram look like a cruel and heartless person. What I especially didn’t like is unlike the other relationships on the show that came and went, like Andy and Linda, and Andy and Amanda, and Amy and Tommy, we were never allowed to be rid of Madison, who was clearly the most despised character on the show. Ephram and Madison’s relationship was wrong from the start, and it should have just ended and we never should have heard from her again, but instead Madisongate loomed over Season Four like a ticking time bomb and when that bomb went off, it did so much harm to Ephram’s relationship with both Andy and Amy, and in many ways the show was never the same.
.
I agree that the Madison storyline should not have happened. I wish it was an Ephram/Laynie storyline instead. Ephram did need something for himself season 2..something to build up his confidence while pining for Amy and not being able to have her. Laynie would have been perfect for this, and not such an offensive character. She would have made so much more sense.
Since the Madison storyline did take place I wish it had ended after the shattered heart scene and Madison was never heard from again. Most people would have been okay with that and there would have been less hatred of Madison and her storyline as a result.
I guess the show needed a reason for Ephram not to audition for Julliard. If he had auditioned he would have surly made it, so he had to miss his audition. I'm sure there could have been another reason written to keep Ephram from auditioning..something less offensive than Madisongate. Perhaps he got ill. Maybe the cab had an accident. I'm sure they could have thought of something else! Missing the audition could have put Ephram in a funk after all of the work he did and he could have announced to Amy that he needed a break from everything. Hence..his long journey to Europe.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:12 AM
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I agree that Ephram had right to be pissed at Andy, Madison and himself. That last point I think was important because I think that him being pissed at himself manifested in him being nasty to Delia and Amy. Delia and Amy took it the most because they were the ones that tried to talk him the most.

Andy did not handle this situation good IMO. He actually did not talk to Ephram enough. He expected Ephram to just forget about this, forgive him and move on. Madison did not get it because she did not call Ephram to apologize to him and Ephram did not see her anymore.

So basically both people that had to apologize did nothing on that regard. On the other hand Delia and Amy tried to help Ephram. In a way they wanted Ephram to move on (which he was not ready for) or to open up (which he was not ready for). So he took it on them. Was he right to do so? No. Did they have right to be pissed about it? Hell yes. But I still understood why Ephram acted this way and to me it made sense.

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I agree that the Madison storyline should not have happened. I wish it was an Ephram/Laynie storyline instead. Ephram did need something for himself season 2..something to build up his confidence while pining for Amy and not being able to have her. Laynie would have been perfect for this, and not such an offensive character. She would have made so much more sense.
Ephram and Laynie would have fit in perfectly. I guess the writers did not know what to do with Laynie once Colin died and it's like they wanted to get rid of everything/everyone related to Colin.

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Since the Madison storyline did take place I wish it had ended after the shattered heart scene and Madison was never heard from again. Most people would have been okay with that and there would have been less hatred of Madison and her storyline as a result.
For sure! I think that if this had happened most people would have forgotten about Madison. Now we can't. We will always think about her and that storyline.

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I guess the show needed a reason for Ephram not to audition for Julliard. If he had auditioned he would have surly made it, so he had to miss his audition. I'm sure there could have been another reason written to keep Ephram from auditioning..something less offensive than Madisongate. Perhaps he got ill. Maybe the cab had an accident. I'm sure they could have thought of something else! Missing the audition could have put Ephram in a funk after all of the work he did and he could have announced to Amy that he needed a break from everything. Hence..his long journey to Europe.
Completely agree with this! They needed a reason for Ephram to not go to Julliard. They also wanted to cause rift between Andy and Ephram and wanted to be break up Amy and Ephram. I do believe that they planned this long.

I wish they have come up with better reason for this though. I like your idea far more.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:15 AM
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Great thoughts, you guys.

Yes, I do view Julia as strong woman but as their marriage crumbled more and more she pretty much gave up and went to someone else for emotional support while embracing her children even more. I could also see her sort of playing it a certain way with Andy to try and connect and get him to see the light. It just didn't work. That is why when she told Andy about Everwood, it really was almost like she knew she wasn't going to be around for the long haul (Spiritually she just knew) and probably figured Everwood would save her children because they would eventually have a real father.
The weird thing is that she still defended Andy to Ephram and their marriage. I guess Julia herself was in conflict about their marriage. I have to admit that the writers did wonderful job with this story. I am not the one that likes cheating (do not enjoy such stories), but in this case I still felt for Julia. Somehow I could see how both Andy and Julia made mistakes. I could see that they love each other, but also was able to see why they struggle with their marriage. They were in this gray area that you could feel quite easy.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:46 AM
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The weird thing is that she still defended Andy to Ephram and their marriage. I guess Julia herself was in conflict about their marriage. I have to admit that the writers did wonderful job with this story. I am not the one that likes cheating (do not enjoy such stories), but in this case I still felt for Julia. Somehow I could see how both Andy and Julia made mistakes. I could see that they love each other, but also was able to see why they struggle with their marriage. They were in this gray area that you could feel quite easy.
They definitely showed both sides of the coin concerning the Andy/Julia marriage. Andy came across as far more at fault for sure. Their lack of communication and Julia coming across as really defeated demonstrated she really didn't think their marriage would heal. However, she had hope for Andy and their children. She never wanted to stop hoping that their children could have a real father.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:52 AM
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On the other hand Delia and Amy tried to help Ephram. In a way they wanted Ephram to move on (which he was not ready for) or to open up (which he was not ready for). So he took it on them. Was he right to do so? No. Did they have right to be pissed about it? Hell yes. But I still understood why Ephram acted this way and to me it made sense.
I felt sorry for Ephram concerning Andy and Madison. I didn't feel sorry for him based on how he dealt with the love of his life and his little sister... the two most important females in his life. He was wrong to treat them so poorly. He abandoned his sister without any direct communication and he broke up with Amy all because he wasn't mature enough to handle the situation. He didn't have to break up, he could have said he needed space but made sure she realized it wasn't about her. He didn't have to make his sister feel like he was abandoning her, he could have explained things better to her. He could have called Delia the second he arrived in Europe, he could have continued calling her off and on while he was gone. He did not do that which was awful. How could he do that to his little sister who lost her mom suddenly? He disappeared just like her mother did. Awful, terrible, so wrong on so many levels. What a terrible big brother who hurt his innocent little sister instead of protecting her.

Thus, I don't have any sympathy for Ephram here and neither does Ephram. He told Andy shortly after he returned what he did to Amy was horrible and he was wrong. So I don't really think we were meant to support how he acted if that makes sense. He was mature enough to date an adult, get her pregnant, he should have been mature enough to deal with Amy and Delia properly who were innocent and had nothing to do with the nightmare. What I loved is Ephram understood this and told Andy as much regarding Amy shortly after he returned from Europe. I liked that he realized this. It showed growth.

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