[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Betty, when did you start disliking Colin? Was it immediately? Was there a certain moment you remember thinking you couldn't stand him?

I didn't initially dislike Colin. I felt sorry for him and realized that Amy was going to end up with Ephram in the end anyway (a definite perk for starting the series after it ended). I started to dislike Colin when he started to be a prick to Ephram. I don't know which came first....almost breaking Ephram's arm or mocking and belittling him at the school dance. I am one who believed Colin's brain injury was somewhat of a cause of Colin's behavior...not not all of it. When Colin attacked Ephram at the Pizza shop...that was probably caused by his brain injury. I don't believe Colin had this kind of anger problem before the accident. But...at the dance...Colin didn't act like a person with brain damage. He just acted like a mean bully (which might have been part of his character when he was well). Colin was jealous of Ephram and tried his best to make Ephram feel really small and pathetic. After that I really had no use for Colin. You just don't treat my Ephram like that and get any sympathy or affection for me!



If Colin had woken up as a normal, good guy. The surgery worked and he was healthy, like a brand new kid. How would that have affected Everwood. He came out as a troubled kid and everyone was confused as to how to treat him and then he became ill. What if Colin Hart wasn't ever sick again outside of the common cold or maybe a flu virus. How would that have affected Everwood?

This is a terrific new question, Patricia!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia I just viewed Colin as the kid who had everything going for him. He had college, friends, a girlfriend, a future outside of Everwood. A small town that most would be thankful to break out of, even if it were just a collegiate four years. But he pissed it all away. Drinking partying, not that Bright didn't do it either. But Colin was always the one step further guy. One step further and drink another beer. One step further and drive a little faster. There was never a slow down and look at what's around you. He was always wanted to be one step ahead of everyone else. I think Colin made it to what everyone thought he was. Even Nina would date him if they were somehow the same age in high school. He was what the town wanted him to be. The number one guy that played football, had all the friends. He was a daredevil with no heart in it at all. He didn't care what happened. He didn't care what people got hurt in the process. So all in all....he didn't care. That's the moral of why I don't really like him and probably will never find a soft spot for him. Then coming back after waking up for so long in a coma. He had to deal with the ramifications of the guy he was. Yeah, that's a hard pill to swallow, it always has been. With Colin's brain not where it used to be and really not that strong, he didn't know how to deal. So he went back to his old ways and yeah, people let him. Everyone wanted Colin Hart to be who he used to be. The great basketball player, the guy always up for a party no matter what day of the week it was. He always went a hundred miles an hour until one time he crashed and then eventually burned.

You summed it up brilliantly, Patricia.

I even think that's why his parents were in denial for so long about his real medical problem. Even a brain injury wasn't too big for Colin in the eyes of his very own parents. They were in denial because they didn't want to face losing him, but I also think some of it was Colin being larger than life, a true golden boy, so there was nothing that could stop him. He would prevail no matter what was what they thought. I think when he died that's why they took it so hard. They just never imagined their larger than life son being defeated like that.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia Glad I'm not alone in this Michelle

We walk together. We have survived "A" so many times, it has made us stronger.

I always hope that maybe it'll turn out differently. Not that the scenes will be different or his life span would be different. But my take on it would be different. Like you Michelle, I want to sympathize with Colin. The boy was suffering with a brain injury and a lot of other mental ramifications. People honestly felt sorry for him. So badly I want to feel sorry for him. But I just can't go there. I feel like if I feel sorry for him then it's like I think it's okay for the things he has done. It's not. I can't forgive him. Yeah Bright was driving the car but who was really driving Bright? That's the question. Bright and everyone else were so enamored with Colin that they did anything he said. He knew it. He knew people worshiped him and he took total advantage of it. Yeah, who wouldn't, but he took it to extremes. And with it being a small town, there's nothing he couldn't get away with.

So true. You make an excellent point about who was driving Bright... wow I never thought of it in that manner. Very, very true. Bright always wanted to make Colin proud and I would bet my last dollar when he got into that truck he wanted to impress him then too. He knew what Colin wanted, he wanted to constantly entertain and adore him.

I never thought of Colin in any way when seeing Amy happy with Ephram. Sure Colin was slightly the reason why Amy approached Ephram in the first place to get the Andy have a surgery done. But other than that, their relationship had nothing to do with Colin. It had to do with them and getting it right, making every moment count.

Exactly. Colin was suffering from a severe brain injury he came back from for a short while... unfortunately, this reality still wasn't enough for Amy because she sensed (without admitting it to herself) their relationship was over and she was drawn to realness, which was Ephram. In "My Funny Valentine" her entire focus was jealousy over Ephram and Laynie and dealing with her feelings for Ephram... feelings Colin knew she had plain as day.

They were no joke. It was a connection that didn't have anything to do with anyone else. Ephram was ready to fight for Amy and not because she had a crappy boyfriend. He would've fought for her, and he did, because that's the girl he wanted. Ephram was always one who knew what he wanted. No matter what it took to get there. Amy was the only reason Ephram was alive in Everwood. Otherwise he would've gone back to New York with Jacob (which we've discussed before). Amy saved Ephram and yeah Ephram saved her right back.

He stayed for her.

Their relationship felt so uncomfortable. It was all about sex every time they were together. Sure Ephram being only sixteen years old, that's a given. But Madison being 21. I felt so bad for him when all her friends surprised her for an epic night on her 21st birthday? It was like he played the part of the kid brother who couldn't go out with his big sister's friends for her big birthday party. That's all I think about when her friends show up and, once again, Ephram is reminded of how he doesn't fit into Madison's life outside of her being Deliah's baby sitter and sorta housekeeper.

Bang on about their relationship feeling so uncomfortable. Oh man, 100% true. Sex was the driving force behind their relationship... they did it in a car! I mean, what a brilliant way to define what their relationship was all about and how cheap and gross it truly was.

Her birthday party was a wake up call for him... he ignored his own father's thoughts on how wrong this relationship was but when the birthday party hit, it's like he was run over by a truck. You are so right... he looked like her kid brother, wanting to tag along. Her very own friend was disgusted by Madison STILL carrying on this illegal, gross relationship too. It was such a bad nightmare.

I wanted to think Colin was the good guy. He had good qualities but always fell into what people perceived of him. The crowd he hung out with did dumb things. He was with Bright, the bully, so naturally he became the bully too. He with Amy (I hold that term loosely) who saw hi has a knight and shining armor. A kid who could do no wrong. That's who he was. No matter what Colin did or said he would be forgiven and revered as the great Colin Hart.

I hated every minute of it.

That brings me to a really good question Michelle! this might be our next question, if not...later time maybe? If Colin had woken up as a normal, good guy. The surgery worked and he was healthy, like a brand new kid. How would that have affected Everwood. He came out as a troubled kid and everyone was confused as to how to treat him and then he became ill. What if Colin Hart wasn't ever sick again outside of the common cold or maybe a flu virus. How would that have affected Everwood?

Love it! Thanks for adding it, Betty! I will change the title of the thread.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Betty I didn't initially dislike Colin. I felt sorry for him and realized that Amy was going to end up with Ephram in the end anyway (a definite perk for starting the series after it ended). I started to dislike Colin when he started to be a prick to Ephram. I don't know which came first....almost breaking Ephram's arm or mocking and belittling him at the school dance. I am one who believed Colin's brain injury was somewhat of a cause of Colin's behavior...not not all of it. When Colin attacked Ephram at the Pizza shop...that was probably caused by his brain injury. I don't believe Colin had this kind of anger problem before the accident. But...at the dance...Colin didn't act like a person with brain damage. He just acted like a mean bully (which might have been part of his character when he was well). Colin was jealous of Ephram and tried his best to make Ephram feel really small and pathetic. After that I really had no use for Colin. You just don't treat my Ephram like that and get any sympathy or affection for me!

You make an excellent point, singling out those certain situations he was out of control. You are right, that dance and what he pulled really did seem like the real Colin. The pizza shop, certainly was a result of his brain injury but that dance, so true, it was a different version of him... unfortunately, most probably the real version of him. I don't think he could ever stand someone "showing him up" or having what he didn't have. It's not necessarily that he wanted Amy but he didn't want Ephram to have Amy because how dare anyone take away something or have something that he didn't. He couldn't stand it, and his bully/jerkish ways came out at that dance. Again, not the type of guy that is very appealing if you ask me.

I absolutely LOVED how Amy handled what he pulled too. There was no way she was letting him get away with treating Ephram like that. I also think Amy knew it wasn't the result of his brain injury either, she understood he was just being a huge prick, throwing a fit like an angry, self righteous guy who couldn't stand looking "lower" than anyone else.

Okay new question:

Thanks again, Patricia!

If Colin had woken up as a normal, good guy. The surgery worked and he was healthy, like a brand new kid. How would that have affected Everwood. He came out as a troubled kid and everyone was confused as to how to treat him and then he became ill. What if Colin Hart wasn't ever sick again outside of the common cold or maybe a flu virus. How would that have affected Everwood?

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) If Colin had woken up as a normal, good guy. The surgery worked and he was healthy, like a brand new kid. How would that have affected Everwood. He came out as a troubled kid and everyone was confused as to how to treat him and then he became ill. What if Colin Hart wasn't ever sick again outside of the common cold or maybe a flu virus. How would that have affected Everwood?

It would've changed everything. The course of The Browns in Everwood was contingent on whether or not Andy could save the great Colin Hart. And he didn't, he wasn't able to. So the town pretty much shunned them, even Deliah got the brunt of it and she was just a child. So Andy would've been revered. Treated the same as he was in New York as the same great Doctor Brown. With him giving free medical care he might as well live at the doctor's office. I mean if Dr. Brown can save Colin from a year long coma and be a perfectly healthy kid, he can save anyone, right. Everwood was a great town, but my, they had some naive townspeople.

Amy would've been so thankful to Andy that she would probably hang out with Ephram and invite him to parties just out of guilt because he was the link that got Andy to operate on Colin in the first place. Then of course we know that Amy was meant to be with Ephram and not Colin. But Amy worshiped Colin, she was his number one fan. I don't say girlfriend because honestly, there was only one real person in that relationship. Sad to say, Colin checked out of that relationship long before his accident. It was just Amy hanging around.

Ephram would be in this funk because the one girl he really wanted was tripping out on some guy who got out of a coma because Andy performed some operation. Again, Ephram would have something else to blame Andy for because his life sucked just a bit more in Everwood and would've been a lot better in New York. Honestly, I think he would've left Everwood if Colin had survived. Amy was the bright and shining thing that kept Ephram from being totally miserable and wanting to stay. Everwood wouldn't be the same.

(gives me a story idea lol)

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia It would've changed everything. The course of The Browns in Everwood was contingent on whether or not Andy could save the great Colin Hart. And he didn't, he wasn't able to. So the town pretty much shunned them, even Deliah got the brunt of it and she was just a child. So Andy would've been revered. Treated the same as he was in New York as the same great Doctor Brown. With him giving free medical care he might as well live at the doctor's office. I mean if Dr. Brown can save Colin from a year long coma and be a perfectly healthy kid, he can save anyone, right. Everwood was a great town, but my, they had some naive townspeople.

I completely agree. Everwood had very quirky, colorful people but overall decent people. However, they could be naive and definitely changed their minds like a light switch if it served their needs.

I laughed seeing all the townspeople flying into Andy's office, abandoning Harold, lol.

You are right about the treatment of the Brown's. It was so hot and cold based on what Andy's hands could basically do.

Amy would've been so thankful to Andy that she would probably hang out with Ephram and invite him to parties just out of guilt because he was the link that got Andy to operate on Colin in the first place. Then of course we know that Amy was meant to be with Ephram and not Colin. But Amy worshiped Colin, she was his number one fan. I don't say girlfriend because honestly, there was only one real person in that relationship. Sad to say, Colin checked out of that relationship long before his accident. It was just Amy hanging around.

So true about one person being in the relationship because the other person checked out well before his accident. Absolutely true.

I do feel like while Amy and Colin probably would've stayed together a bit longer because of the happiness over the recovery... I feel like ironically Colin was immaterial for Amy. I say this even as we know she was obsessed with him, programmed to want to be with him, she sat in this fairytale and could hardly get out.

That said, the stars were aligned for Ephram and Amy to be together... they truly were written in the stars, meant to be. I absolutely believe they would have found a way to be together romantically regardless. I am not sure how long it would take but they'd get there... not only getting together but ending up together.

I also wonder if Ephram would have gone for it with Madison. I think it would depend on the state of his relationship with Amy. I would like to think Ephram wouldn't have given his sister's adult babysitter a second look though.

Ephram would be in this funk because the one girl he really wanted was tripping out on some guy who got out of a coma because Andy performed some operation. Again, Ephram would have something else to blame Andy for because his life sucked just a bit more in Everwood and would've been a lot better in New York. Honestly, I think he would've left Everwood if Colin had survived. Amy was the bright and shining thing that kept Ephram from being totally miserable and wanting to stay. Everwood wouldn't be the same.

You make really great points. I am sold on their meant to be tag so maybe how I see it would be Ephram temporarily going back to NYC but eventually returning. I still feel like Ephram and Amy would have maintained contact so it's possible Amy still would be the reason for Ephram to hang around or eventually return. I think deep down both Ephram and Amy realized they had something together and just couldn't let go of each other... throughout the entire Colin saga, even while Amy was with Tommy and Ephram was with Madison. They still held on tight to their connection. I would like to think they would have still found a way.

(gives me a story idea lol)

Bring it!

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I completely agree. Everwood had very quirky, colorful people but overall decent people. However, they could be naive and definitely changed their minds like a light switch if it served their needs.

Look how quickly they ran over to Andy's office because he was offering free care. I mean come on. They were used to this wonderful, caring physician of Dr. Harold Abbott. And yeah, he charged, of course he did. But a man new to the town, never heard of unless you read some fancy magazine where he did an interview. But that tell you nothing about him. And because he was offering free services, they gave their lives to him, literally because they were allowing him to poke around and fix them

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I laughed seeing all the townspeople flying into Andy's office, abandoning Harold, lol.

It was quite interesting. You'd think a new diner opened up in town the way the townspeople were lined up. I know it's a small town, but word got around fast

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) You are right about the treatment of the Brown's. It was so hot and cold based on what Andy's hands could basically do.

See, that's Everwood. The entire town always forms one opinion. No matter if it's the right opinion, they form the same opinion. Either they don't know any better or are too scared to stand up to their neighbor and boast their opinions.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I do feel like while Amy and Colin probably would've stayed together a bit longer because of the happiness over the recovery... I feel like ironically Colin was immaterial for Amy. I say this even as we know she was obsessed with him, programmed to want to be with him, she sat in this fairytale and could hardly get out.

Amy made Colin her prince charming, he never wanted to be her prince charming and certainly didn't give any indication of knowing how to be one. To Colin's defense, Amy put all these ideas into Colin's head of what he could be. She treated him like the rest of the town did, like he was their God.

Colin was too immature for his age. I don't blame him necessarily. The town wanted to mold him into this high school football player for the rest of his life. I just wonder what the town would've done if there was never an accident and Colin just went off to college and they have to build up another rising sports star of Everwood.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) I also wonder if Ephram would have gone for it with Madison. I think it would depend on the state of his relationship with Amy. I would like to think Ephram wouldn't have given his sister's adult babysitter a second look though.

This is what I hated about the entire Madison/Ephram thing. They didn't love each other. Ephram was so caught up in the older woman scenario all he saw was being an adult, being able to make his own decisions. I just feel that if Andy and Ephram had a different relationship where they were more open, communicated more...kind of like they did in the 4th season...I think Ephram wouldn't have pursued Madison as far as he did. He got caught up int he moment of being a man...or what version of what he thought a man should be.

Originally Posted by Michelle (View Post) Bring it!

Writing a little bit each day

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia Look how quickly they ran over to Andy's office because he was offering free care. I mean come on. They were used to this wonderful, caring physician of Dr. Harold Abbott. And yeah, he charged, of course he did. But a man new to the town, never heard of unless you read some fancy magazine where he did an interview. But that tell you nothing about him. And because he was offering free services, they gave their lives to him, literally because they were allowing him to poke around and fix them

So true. It really was insanely ridiculous. I'm actually shocked Harold took it as calmly as he did. Oh he was irritated and upset but I'm surprised he wasn't even more angry and upset. He had a right to be! Guaranteed Harold didn't overcharge, and we know he was a good doctor. He was calling out his patients who were leaving for Andy and knew the precise ailments they had, lol. Also, I'm sure a bunch of those patients who bailed for Andy had parents and Grandparents and Great-Grandparents who all went to Harold Sr too. This town understood the Abbott's, father and son were to be trusted. It's a shame they would bail on trust and loyalty in favor of free. But this town was colorful and absolutely didn't think things through so much of the time. Not that Andy was a bad option of course but they didn't know that at the time.

Originally Posted by Patricia It was quite interesting. You'd think a new diner opened up in town the way the townspeople were lined up. I know it's a small town, but word got around fast

Or a movie star hit town for the day.

Originally Posted by Patricia See, that's Everwood. The entire town always forms one opinion. No matter if it's the right opinion, they form the same opinion. Either they don't know any better or are too scared to stand up to their neighbor and boast their opinions.

So very true. I'm actually shocked the townies didn't throw a fit over Ephram dating Madison. I know Madison made sure they had sex in cars and would hide out behind closed doors to keep the illegal secret... but still... it's shocking they never found out. I wish they would have because maybe the relationship would have ended before she had the chance to get pregnant!

Originally Posted by Patricia Amy made Colin her prince charming, he never wanted to be her prince charming and certainly didn't give any indication of knowing how to be one. To Colin's defense, Amy put all these ideas into Colin's head of what he could be. She treated him like the rest of the town did, like he was their God.

That's so very true. How on earth could Colin grow up or become down to earth and grounded when he had Amy and Bright with pom poms as his cheerleaders? It really was ridiculous. I wonder why Harold and Rose didn't see this and at least lessen it a bit. Rose wouldn't strike me as someone caught up in Colin being Hercules. Then again, Nina doesn't really either yet she was all about Hercules so who knows.

Originally Posted by Patricia Colin was too immature for his age. I don't blame him necessarily. The town wanted to mold him into this high school football player for the rest of his life. I just wonder what the town would've done if there was never an accident and Colin just went off to college and they have to build up another rising sports star of Everwood.

That's a great point. So true! My guess is Colin would have returned after college and the town would continue to worship him. Remember how the town acted when Carl Feeney came back to town? Carl Feeney was a liar, cheater, making Nina feel guilty when the cheater wasn't man enough to admit he was gay and had moved on yet the town treated him like he was solid gold. Granted, they didn't know what was going on but yes, he was apparently the basketball stud so he had to be worshiped just like Colin Hart apparently.

Seriously... Carl was ten years out of high school and had no awareness that he ever actually LEFT high school. He was still wearing his Miners' jacket and replaying the last five seconds of the big game he won back in 1984. He was a glimpse of the future version of Colin! This town.

Originally Posted by Patricia This is what I hated about the entire Madison/Ephram thing. They didn't love each other. Ephram was so caught up in the older woman scenario all he saw was being an adult, being able to make his own decisions. I just feel that if Andy and Ephram had a different relationship where they were more open, communicated more...kind of like they did in the 4th season...I think Ephram wouldn't have pursued Madison as far as he did. He got caught up int he moment of being a man...or what version of what he thought a man should be.

Ephram never loved Madison, not even for a second. I know some people thought Ephram grew up during his relationship with Madison but I've always strongly disagreed. He was like a 13 year old boy fantasizing about being with an adult woman only he got the fantasy yet still acted 13 with drool all over his boyish face.

Ephram was still a boy wrapped up in this older woman fantasy who he found hot. I never found Madison to be anything special so it was difficult to buy Ephram finding her so hot but that's another story all together.

Anyway, Ephram didn't grow up with Madison, he actually reverted and became even more immature as well as highly annoying. When you have Bright Abbott getting annoyed by Ephram's irritating behavior you know it's bad! Even Bright got sick of Ephram while he was with Madison so that says it all.

Nothing good came from Ephram's relationship with Madison. It was gross, illegal and only caused future problems for father and son, as well as Ephram and Amy.

You are absolutely right that if Andy and Ephram would have been in a better place Ephram never would have gone for it with Madison. Guaranteed, he wouldn't have. That's where Madison, the adult, should have put her foot down and said absolutely not to Ephram but she was stupid, irresponsible, and almost wanted to show up Andy even back then. Man, I loathe her.

Originally Posted by Patricia Writing a little bit each day

Great!

[break the window]

New PLL tonight

Fells like we went through an entire summer without a new episode and it was only one week

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) So true. It really was insanely ridiculous. I'm actually shocked Harold took it as calmly as he did. Oh he was irritated and upset but I'm surprised he wasn't even more angry and upset. He had a right to be! Guaranteed Harold didn't overcharge, and we know he was a good doctor. He was calling out his patients who were leaving for Andy and knew the precise ailments they had, lol. Also, I'm sure a bunch of those patients who bailed for Andy had parents and Grandparents and Great-Grandparents who all went to Harold Sr too. This town understood the Abbott's, father and son were to be trusted. It's a shame they would bail on trust and loyalty in favor of free. But this town was colorful and absolutely didn't think things through so much of the time. Not that Andy was a bad option of course but they didn't know that at the time.

Well if we have to be honest what Andy did was low. I get that he was big time surgeon and had earned lots of money in NY so he didn't need to charge, but other doctors work this because you know they also need the money. Basically he caused problems for Harold and left him without work because of some desire to feel good for himself. I agree with you that it was understandable that Harold was upset with this.

Or a movie star hit town for the day.

This does happen in small towns though.

So very true. I'm actually shocked the townies didn't throw a fit over Ephram dating Madison. I know Madison made sure they had sex in cars and would hide out behind closed doors to keep the illegal secret... but still... it's shocking they never found out. I wish they would have because maybe the relationship would have ended before she had the chance to get pregnant!

That's true. Given how small Everwood was it was to be expected that the townspeople would comment on this and they definitely wouldn't have liked this relationship. Not that I think that Ephram would care too much because he wasn't the guy to consider what people thought of him. Especially people that weren't close to him, but I still think that the towns people would have been vocal about their dislike of this couple.

That's so very true. How on earth could Colin grow up or become down to earth and grounded when he had Amy and Bright with pom poms as his cheerleaders? It really was ridiculous. I wonder why Harold and Rose didn't see this and at least lessen it a bit. Rose wouldn't strike me as someone caught up in Colin being Hercules. Then again, Nina doesn't really either yet she was all about Hercules so who knows.

I see it a bit differently. Bright wasn't that better than Colin to be honest. The difference between Colin and Bright was that the first was a bit smarter. Both were into the popularity and sports. It's what they had going for themselves. As for as Amy she was 16 years old at the time. Harold and Rose definitely didn't think that what Amy and Colin had was for their whole life. They lived in small town and it's not like that there were that much decent boys for Amy to date at that age.

Really the choice in small town is not that big . They at least knew Colin and he was a friend of their son. They never thought that Amy and Colin would marry or anything like that. They most probably thought that the moment Colin goes to college this would be over. Harold himself wasn't prepared for Amy's depression over Colin being in the hospital. And at that point for Harold was more important to focus on helping Amy than thinking about Amy/Colin as something unique.

That's a great point. So true! My guess is Colin would have returned after college and the town would continue to worship him. Remember how the town acted when Carl Feeney came back to town? Carl Feeney was a liar, cheater, making Nina feel guilty when the cheater wasn't man enough to admit he was gay and had moved on yet the town treated him like he was solid gold. Granted, they didn't know what was going on but yes, he was apparently the basketball stud so he had to be worshiped just like Colin Hart apparently.

That to be honest reflects however far more than small town. Think about it. I personally see every day how popular people (whether it will be because of sports or acting or singing or etc) are treated differently than the rest. Even in court you see the difference. What happens with sport is that it can unite people. People party when their teams win. Quite often people worship or favor the athletes that carried their favorite teams.

The same happened in Everwood. It's not like that they have something unique going on in their town. What they had are some high school tournaments and when they win because of some boy he becomes the town star. In their eyes he is the reason for happiness and even pride.

Seriously... Carl was ten years out of high school and had no awareness that he ever actually LEFT high school. He was still wearing his Miners' jacket and replaying the last five seconds of the big game he won back in 1984. He was a glimpse of the future version of Colin! This town.

They only associated him with the positive emotions they had because of his success as an athlete. That's the problem with a lot of sports fans that forgive everything their idol does.

Ephram never loved Madison, not even for a second. I know some people thought Ephram grew up during his relationship with Madison but I've always strongly disagreed. He was like a 13 year old boy fantasizing about being with an adult woman only he got the fantasy yet still acted 13 with drool all over his boyish face.

I don't think that he grew up. I don't have a problem that he was with another girl. They could have just chosen different one.

Ephram was still a boy wrapped up in this older woman fantasy who he found hot. I never found Madison to be anything special so it was difficult to buy Ephram finding her so hot but that's another story all together.

She was normal. Not ugly, but not something hot either.

Anyway, Ephram didn't grow up with Madison, he actually reverted and became even more immature as well as highly annoying. When you have Bright Abbott getting annoyed by Ephram's irritating behavior you know it's bad! Even Bright got sick of Ephram while he was with Madison so that says it all.

. Ephram acted more immature in Season than in Season 1. I totally agree.

Nothing good came from Ephram's relationship with Madison. It was gross, illegal and only caused future problems for father and son, as well as Ephram and Amy.

I still wonder why they went there.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Patricia New PLL tonight Fells like we went through an entire summer without a new episode and it was only one week

I'm planning today around the episode tonight. These two weeks have taken forever. So glad an all new is tonight! 11 hours and counting!

[break the window]

with every episode, each one feels like a finale in itself

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Koni Well if we have to be honest what Andy did was low. I get that he was big time surgeon and had earned lots of money in NY so he didn't need to charge, but other doctors work this because you know they also need the money. Basically he caused problems for Harold and left him without work because of some desire to feel good for himself. I agree with you that it was understandable that Harold was upset with this.

It was definitely low. I know Andy and Harold from the start had the snap, crackle, and pop chemistry and they both irritated the hell out of each other... that said, it was pretty bad on Andy's part. Edna even ends up working with Andy, too, lol.

That's true. Given how small Everwood was it was to be expected that the townspeople would comment on this and they definitely wouldn't have liked this relationship. Not that I think that Ephram would care too much because he wasn't the guy to consider what people thought of him. Especially people that weren't close to him, but I still think that the towns people would have been vocal about their dislike of this couple.

I definitely don't think Ephram would have cared. This is one part that does kind of boggle my mind... Madison wanted the relationship private, behind closed doors. Ephram had a problem with it, he felt like she was embarrassed to be seen with him. It was always weird to me that he didn't realize why it had to be this way. They couldn't be out in public even if Madison wanted them to be able to go there. Madison's friend concerned about Madison getting busted was a reality whether Ephram liked it or not. I do think it showed Ephram's immaturity. He wouldn't have been the one in trouble legally, Madison would have. He never really considered this as a reality even while Andy was talking to him about it, and in general, too. I'm not sure why.

I see it a bit differently. Bright wasn't that better than Colin to be honest. The difference between Colin and Bright was that the first was a bit smarter. Both were into the popularity and sports. It's what they had going for themselves. As for as Amy she was 16 years old at the time. Harold and Rose definitely didn't think that what Amy and Colin had was for their whole life. They lived in small town and it's not like that there were that much decent boys for Amy to date at that age. Really the choice in small town is not that big . They at least knew Colin and he was a friend of their son. They never thought that Amy and Colin would marry or anything like that. They most probably thought that the moment Colin goes to college this would be over. Harold himself wasn't prepared for Amy's depression over Colin being in the hospital. And at that point for Harold was more important to focus on helping Amy than thinking about Amy/Colin as something unique.

It's interesting because we never did get Harold and Rose's opinion on where Amy and Colin were going, and if they were cheerleaders like Nina was. You're right, it's very possible they didn't think it was lasting and would only transpire until Amy went away to college. That is true about Harold not being prepared for Amy's depression over his death (which still blows me away since he was a physician) so maybe they just never thought their relationship was that deep. You make a really good point. It's entirely possible they didn't.

Now we know Bright made it seem like Colin owned Amy and was "protecting" Amy from Ephram as a result. That could just mean Bright was doing the best friend sort of thing. I do find it interesting that Bright had no idea Colin was planning on breaking up with Amy yet Laynie did. Does that mean Bright and Colin weren't that close after all?

That to be honest reflects however far more than small town. Think about it. I personally see every day how popular people (whether it will be because of sports or acting or singing or etc) are treated differently than the rest. Even in court you see the difference. What happens with sport is that it can unite people. People party when their teams win. Quite often people worship or favor the athletes that carried their favorite teams. The same happened in Everwood. It's not like that they have something unique going on in their town. What they had are some high school tournaments and when they win because of some boy he becomes the town star. In their eyes he is the reason for happiness and even pride.

Well, I was the Colin and Carl in my town when it comes to both soccer and basketball. Thankfully, I wasn't treated like that overall but then again I didn't go to a school in a small town or anything. Still, people would come up to me and say good game and note my sports but I never felt like they wanted my autograph or anything, lol.

They only associated him with the positive emotions they had because of his success as an athlete. That's the problem with a lot of sports fans that forgive everything their idol does.

Yeah, it's weird.

I don't think that he grew up. I don't have a problem that he was with another girl. They could have just chosen different one.

That's what bothered me the most actually. I know I harp on the illegal aspect or whatever but I don't really do that because it was truly illegal... truth be told if Madison was a different girl that Ephram actually grew up with and learned some stuff from without being so immature and not growing up (let alone the pregnancy) the age thing wouldn't even bother me. What bothers me about the relationship is Ephram's reaction to it. I don't believe his time with Madison did anything positive for him. It didn't damage him or anything even though there's the pregnancy situation that will always leave a scar for him. But overall, it wasn't damaging in a lasting way... it's just Ephram spent way more time being upset, acting super immature, literally reverting from his season 1 fairly mature self to this very immature boy. Thus, why was this relationship beneficial to him? I really don't think it was. I wanted him with someone else. He deserved to have a fulfilling relationship before ending up with Amy. There was nothing wrong with that. Not that Tommy was anything special for Amy... just the opposite. But at least Amy did have Colin and I tend to believe their relationship didn't always suck. If it did, they wouldn't have lasted, Amy in fantasy-mode or not. Amy did have the chance to experience a first relationship with Colin. Ephram didn't have anything close to that with Madison and given how he talked about NYC, even if he liked that Gwen S look-alike, he didn't have anything with her either and I think that was pretty much it for his romantic life in NYC too.

So Ephram deserved something way better than what he endured with Madison which is why I've never been a fan of this relationship.

She was normal. Not ugly, but not something hot either.

Definitely not ugly, though TWoP liked to make fun of her. But I never found her ugly... however, the way Ephram and Bright talked about her, you'd think a Marilyn Monroe look-alike was going to walk through the door.

. Ephram acted more immature in Season than in Season 1. I totally agree. I still wonder why they went there.

He did! Which is why I wanted more for Ephram.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by fulfilledღ (View Post) with every episode, each one feels like a finale in itself

Absolutely. I know MK mentioned that every episode would be huge but I didn't truly know if we should believe her or not. We should have believed her from the start!

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) It was definitely low. I know Andy and Harold from the start had the snap, crackle, and pop chemistry and they both irritated the hell out of each other... that said, it was pretty bad on Andy's part. Edna even ends up working with Andy, too, lol.

Yeah . Sometimes Harold might have been too much, but in this specific case I think that his attitude was completely justified.

I definitely don't think Ephram would have cared. This is one part that does kind of boggle my mind... Madison wanted the relationship private, behind closed doors. Ephram had a problem with it, he felt like she was embarrassed to be seen with him. It was always weird to me that he didn't realize why it had to be this way. They couldn't be out in public even if Madison wanted them to be able to go there. Madison's friend concerned about Madison getting busted was a reality whether Ephram liked it or not. I do think it showed Ephram's immaturity. He wouldn't have been the one in trouble legally, Madison would have. He never really considered this as a reality even while Andy was talking to him about it, and in general, too. I'm not sure why.

I agree. It showed Ephram's immaturity. He couldn't realize how big this was. He didn't grasp the situation at all. Though to be honest I always thought that he didn't even find Madison that awesome or something (like Bright). I always thought that he saw Madison as a way to forget about Amy. I don't think that he ever loved Madison. At this point he couldn't even know what love is about. He found some girl that was kind of OK with the idea of being with him and he went for it. Plus was that this made him cooler for Bright. And that pretty much where I think that they end up. He wanted to be seen with Madison not because he loved so much, but because he kind of wanted to ease up his own mind that he is not hang up on Amy.

It's interesting because we never did get Harold and Rose's opinion on where Amy and Colin were going, and if they were cheerleaders like Nina was. You're right, it's very possible they didn't think it was lasting and would only transpire until Amy went away to college. That is true about Harold not being prepared for Amy's depression over his death (which still blows me away since he was a physician) so maybe they just never thought their relationship was that deep. You make a really good point. It's entirely possible they didn't.

I think that most parents don't see as serious the relationships of their 15 years old kids. Unless the boyfriend is some drug addict or gang member they wouldn't intervene because they don't think that this will be end game in any way.

Now we know Bright made it seem like Colin owned Amy and was "protecting" Amy from Ephram as a result. That could just mean Bright was doing the best friend sort of thing. I do find it interesting that Bright had no idea Colin was planning on breaking up with Amy yet Laynie did. Does that mean Bright and Colin weren't that close after all?

I actually don't think that Bright thought that Colin owes Amy. Bright's behavior towards Ephram for me didn't have that much to do with Colin/Amy couple. I know that it seems this way, but for me Bright had his own frustrations. Bright sensed that Ephram won't be just another boy for Amy. He might not be the smartest one out there, but he did sense that. And at that point the fear and the guilt appeared because Ephram being in Amy's life and being her friend reminded Bright about the guilt he carries for the accident with Colin. And he acted out and let out his frustrations to Ephram. I really don't think that Colin or Bright were bullies per se. Bright wasn't so pro Amy/Colin as a couple because this was bringing him back to the past where his best friend was alive and not in coma due to accident that he caused. I think that both Bright and Amy were obsessed with the idea of their past not because they thought that Amy will end up with Colin for life, but because it was their way of dealing with this tragedy.

I think that before the accident Amy wasn't also that in love with Colin. Just like Colin wasn't. With the time however she started idolizing internally Colin and what they had. She blurred the lines and obsessed over the idea of being in love than actually loving Colin. Bright on the other hand wanted Colin to be OK so that he would get free from the guilt he carried. And his memories of Colin being alive and OK include Colin/Amy as a couple. So Bright wanted to get back to that. Seeing Amy moving on with Ephram only reinforced Bright's guilt.

I don't even think that Amy's depression was because she loved Colin. Amy had spent so much time by Colin's bed that she changed her views on her past as a whole. She created her own reality where her relationship with Colin was the best. She deceived herself with ideas of ending up together with Colin and when Colin died she felt like she lost. Like she couldn't do anything to save him.

Well, I was the Colin and Carl in my town when it comes to both soccer and basketball. Thankfully, I wasn't treated like that overall but then again I didn't go to a school in a small town or anything. Still, people would come up to me and say good game and note my sports but I never felt like they wanted my autograph or anything, lol.

Exactly. People liked you because you gave them good moments being part of a team that was winning for their town.

Definitely not ugly, though TWoP liked to make fun of her. But I never found her ugly... however, the way Ephram and Bright talked about her, you'd think a Marilyn Monroe look-alike was going to walk through the door.

I don't think that Bright cared about her looks. For him it was just cool to be with an older girl. It's like fantasy some teen boys have.