[jediwands]

Originally Posted by break the window (View Post) I don't either, really. The first season was written to the highest caliber and never went the soap opera route. What made him think that the Madison story line would be a good idea. Did he just not think it through and let the writers take over? I don't mind the Ephram dating Madison part, that doesn't bother me...mostly it doesn't. But why did he have to write that Ephram got her pregnant and didn't know about it. To me, it's sloppy writing. It's really just childish, honestly. They wanted a rift between Andy and Ephram and the only thing on the table was Madison, apparently. They couldn't have thought of anything else that would possibly cause a rift between them. Ephram was sixteen years old, there's plenty of things to piss him off that doesn't involve an ex-girlfriend.

Precisely.

I know Berlanti slightly took a step away from the series in Season 3 since Rina was mostly in charge even if he was checking in here and there. But I wonder if he went with the Madison pregnancy bomb because he was stepping away and just wanted to create some drama. It kind of reminds me of Dawson's Creek Season 2 when they came up a bogus way to get Dawson and Joey to break up... Dawson having to bust her father. Berlanti was involved with Dawson's Creek too and saw Kevin drop that bomb and then he stepped away at the end of Season 2. Same with Berlanti on Everwood, even if he very mildly stepped away compared to Williamson who abandoned Dawson's Creek.

I'm glad Treat realized how screwed up this story was. It was so out of character for Andy to step in the way he did. He had no right to just write Madison off and send her monthly checks. If Treat wasn't happy, I wonder if he addressed his reservations to Berlanti himself, it seems something Treat would do if he really thought his character was being hung out to dry.

I wonder if he did. I know he was very clear in an interview that he wasn't happy. He mentioned it being totally out of character for Andy to make that decision. He was not happy at all. I am sure Berlanti knew as much but obviously it didn't really change the storyline. I wish it would have.

What if the story was the idea of the network? Networks love this type of drama, no matter where it comes from. That's only way I can think of why Berlanti went this route and bought Madison back into the fold. Maybe that's why Treat didn't fight it because it was over the head of all the executive producers.

That's good speculation. It's possible! It doesn't seem Berlanti-like at all and while Treat did speak out about it, he wasn't throwing a fit or anything. Maybe it was the idea of the network. Berlanti has never really talked about why this storyline materialized.

Thank God for that, because Berlanti did a damn good shop of making a **** character out of Madison. She ended up becoming just like a tramp in many ways and not redeemable. I think if Madison showed any remorse when telling Ephram about the baby and how she gave the baby up for adoption, but she didn't. It almost felt like Madison was telling the story second hand and she didn't really actually go through it. I would think, since Madison carried the baby in her body for 9 months that she'd have some sort of emotional connection...but she didn't. After the adoption, Madison, in her head, acts like it never happened.

Absolutely and while I understand her being mad at Andy, I still think she had a lot of nerve. Andy didn't want them to have a relationship in the first place. Madison knew it was wrong. She also promised Andy she wouldn't hurt Ephram. She did and also got pregnant. She had a lot of nerve just blaming it all on Andy. She seemed like she was only telling Ephram to get back at Andy too. Also... I will never buy Madison obeying Andy's wishes just because she was honoring Andy. BS. She had a voice and a functioning brain. She still could have told Ephram. Andy was not holding a gun to her head. She could have told Ephram the entire time and chose not to, only telling him at the worst time possible because she was angry. BS. I hate this character so much!

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by break the window (View Post) OMG, It grates my nerves of how Ephram treated Andy like he was the most evil human being on the planet. Ephram had it all wrong in so many ways. He painted Andy as the bad guy, the bad parent, the one in the marriage who cheated. Anything that went wrong, he blamed Andy. And, sadly, Andy let him. Andy gave him too much credit for not being there for most of Ephram's life and then dealing with the death of his mother. Andy deserved better than to be treated like he was from Ephram. Ephram felt he had a right to treat his father that way. He had it all wrong. Ephram painted Julia to be this perfect mother, perfect wife, perfect everything. He could not imagine in his head that his mother would ever be imperfect...but she was. Andy accepted what Julia did and was willing to work on their marriage, it would have just taken a lot of time, but time is not what they were given. It disgusts me how Andy let Ephram treat him that way and still gave Ephram everything he wanted, without prevail. I wanted so much more for Andy when they moved to Everwood, he deserved much more!

^^^ Excellent thoughts!

This was the true test that Andy needed to pass and he failed, miserably. Andy needed to stand firm to his morals and be a parent. Ephram only went out with Madison to mess with Andy, we all know that. He was a little prick and it showed. Andy, again, because he wasn't there and thought he owed Ephram so much, he allowed it. Andy should've just told Ephram no. I know Ephram would've found a way, but at least Andy would have stood his ground. Andy needed to be a parent, and of course, he'd figure that out along the way, but Ephram knew how to push Andy to get what he wanted...and he got it...and then some. I lost lots of respect for Andy during this time.

I completely agree. Andy absolutely needed to be a parent during this time. It was so necessary to go there and he just caved. He shouldn't have backed down. For as lame as Madison is, I have a feeling if Andy would have stood his ground she would have went along with it. Deep down she knew it was wrong and if Andy was putting his foot down she would have agreed. Oh she would have been manipulative and blamed Andy in front of Ephram but I do think she would have listened to Andy. Ephram might have thrown fits and tried to make it work but Andy still held all the power if only he wouldn't have backed down! I think in the end, Ephram would have appreciated it as well since eventually he would have seen Andy WAS being a father and making decisions he didn't have to agree with but respect and appreciate that he did have a caring father around helping him with tough decisions.

Very true. Andy was put in too many compromising situations with these two. Madison and Ephram knew what unprotected sex would to, but they still did it anyway. Andy was trying to fix everything, make life easier for Ephram...again, while Ephram and Madison were old enough to know their decisions had very severe consequences. If Ephram wasn't so angry all the time at his father, maybe he wouldn't have felt he had to date Madison just to get back at Andy. I don't think Ephram fell in love with Madison, I think he fell for an older woman that was willing to give him an adult relationship. Ephram wanted to be an adult so bad that he went along with it and didn't care what happened, as long as it angered Andy.

Right. I wish Andy would have canned Madison the second she started bossing all of them around. I am shocked he put up with that witch past one day, let alone allowed her to bed his underage son.

I do not think Ephram fell in love with Madison either just like I don't believe Amy fell in love with Colin as well. Neither did even if they still think they did, even in their own way. Well, I take that back... in the Season 4 amazing flashback scene Amy did tell Ephram she loved Colin like she would love Big Bird... she understood eventually it wasn't the real thing and certainly after meeting Ephram, she knew. But I am not sure what Ephram felt about Madison late in the game. He knew he loved Amy in a true love way but I sincerely hope he figured out he was never IN love with the adult babysitter.

[everwoodfan52]

It's definitely unanimous that Madison's storyline should not have happened....at least not the pregnancy.....Andy was too wimpy in his parenting of Ephram and gave in too many times because of his guilt....Ephram was over the top in his disrespectful behavior toward Andy. Andy did not deserve this.

Patricia, you make a great point in that there needed to be some type of conflict between Andy and Ephram and there were so many other ways for a teenager and his dad to be conflicted.

What other ways could Berlanti have included conflict other than having Ephram date Madison?

[jediwands]

What other ways could Berlanti have included conflict other than having Ephram date Madison?

Well I liked how they constructed Linda's HIV status in season two. I thought that was a brilliant way to naturally incorporate some drama. Ephram was scared about his dad possibly contracting HIV.

Other ways:

1. Andy had a health scare. I know he had the bleeding ulcer but earlier we could have seen Andy diagnosed with a health issue, even a controllable one like diabetes. Conflict would have been Ephram's worry and Andy controlling the illness.

2. Could've also seen Andy become more and more busy with work. Maybe a medical case would have forced him to do a surgery out of town. It would bring up his unavailability as a father again. The conflict would be Ephram concerned Andy was going back to his old ways.

3. There could be more of a family conflict. Maybe Delia is struggling with something and both Andy and Ephram try to help but it creates tension.

4. In season two when Amy was dealing with her depression maybe we could have seen Ephram rebelling a bit... drinking a little too much, not taking piano seriously because he was upset over the Amy situation.

[Jerry D]

Excellent thoughts everyone.

I think that what Ephram felt for Madison was a combination of infatuation and lust. He was also in a vulnerable position because Amy had rejected him when she was still in the throes of her grief over Colin's death, and like the rest of the town, she blamed Andy for his death, and since Ephram was Andy's son, she associated him with Andy. He was never in love with Madison.

I also wish that Andy had fired Madison as soon as she started bossing everyone around, and he should have put a stop to Ephram and Madison dating right away, but to be honest, I don't know who much he could have done to prevent what happened, because when you're a teenager, if your parent tells you to not do something or not see someone, you'll do the opposite of what they want just to spite them. Andy had a huge feeling of guilt over his neglectful parenting when Julia was alive, and in some ways, he never had to be a parent when she was alive, so all this was still new to him, and he did let Ephram walk all over him due to that guilt. I could understand why he wanted to protect Ephram when Madison told him she was pregnant, but he handled everything all wrong and it all blew up in his face.

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Well I liked how they constructed Linda's HIV status in season two. I thought that was a brilliant way to naturally incorporate some drama. Ephram was scared about his dad possibly contracting HIV. Other ways: 1. Andy had a health scare. I know he had the bleeding ulcer but earlier we could have seen Andy diagnosed with a health issue, even a controllable one like diabetes. Conflict would have been Ephram's worry and Andy controlling the illness. 2. Could've also seen Andy become more and more busy with work. Maybe a medical case would have forced him to do a surgery out of town. It would bring up his unavailability as a father again. The conflict would be Ephram concerned Andy was going back to his old ways. 3. There could be more of a family conflict. Maybe Delia is struggling with something and both Andy and Ephram try to help but it creates tension. 4. In season two when Amy was dealing with her depression maybe we could have seen Ephram rebelling a bit... drinking a little too much, not taking piano seriously because he was upset over the Amy situation.

These are all terrific ideas and none of them would have lead to a pregnancy!

[everwoodfan52]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Excellent thoughts everyone. I think that what Ephram felt for Madison was a combination of infatuation and lust. He was also in a vulnerable position because Amy had rejected him when she was still in the throes of her grief over Colin's death, and like the rest of the town, she blamed Andy for his death, and since Ephram was Andy's son, she associated him with Andy. He was never in love with Madison.

All very good points, Jerry! I agree that Ephram had no real love for Madison...only feelngs of lust. I will admit at first I was okay with Madison...felt badly for Ephram because of Amy's rejection. I believed Madison to be good for Ephram's seff-esteem which I believed was shattered. In hindsight...Madison's involvement was far from good...not only because of the pregnancy...but because her shame in being with him was definitely not good for Ephram's ego.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Well I liked how they constructed Linda's HIV status in season two. I thought that was a brilliant way to naturally incorporate some drama. Ephram was scared about his dad possibly contracting HIV.

I'm really sad they didn't dive more into Andy and Linda's relationship as well. It was obvious they had feelings for each other that went beyond just two fellow doctors. I think Andy and Linda would've been good together.

So many possibilities there that could create conflict....

1. She's the first woman in Andy's life after Julia died. That says a lot right there. Andy waited for Nina so long that it was past the point of the kids approving of it, it was more Andy getting off his ass and doing something about it. Ephram had to practically push Andy off the ledge to go talk to Nina and make her see that Andy really did have feelings for her.

2. I have to say it...HIV! How could that not be an issue. It's probably the only issue that kept Linda and Andy at bay from exploring their feelings for each other. That would've been the episode of the week having Andy and Linda contemplating being in an intimate/sexual relationship while having to deal with the elephant in the room of HIV. Sure, Andy being a doctor, he would know the risks in more ways than most people, as well as Linda, the one with the condition.

So many ways to spin this storyline and with Everwood writers being as intelligent as they are, so many explorations to consider.

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) 1. Andy had a health scare. I know he had the bleeding ulcer but earlier we could have seen Andy diagnosed with a health issue, even a controllable one like diabetes. Conflict would have been Ephram's worry and Andy controlling the illness.

Ephram had to have questions...."is it worth it," going through everything Andy was going through and his health being compromised. Andy was acting like a teenager who was interested in another woman that he had no business being with. Familiar!? The parallels with Andy and Ephram are almost laughable. They are like the same person sometimes, that's why it took them so long to be on even ground because they are so much alike.

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) 2. Could've also seen Andy become more and more busy with work. Maybe a medical case would have forced him to do a surgery out of town. It would bring up his unavailability as a father again. The conflict would be Ephram concerned Andy was going back to his old ways.

YES! OMG! YES! He could've been thrown into being The Great Doctor Brown again. Being gone all the time, seeing patients outside of the Everwood Community. Denver hospitals wanting his expertise all the time. So many wonderful opportunities. I always thought Andy would find any reason to submerge himself back into work and put his career over his family again.

We all know Ephram would call him on it, for not being around, because Ephram was good at calling out other people on their **** even when he had his own **** to deal with.

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) 3. There could be more of a family conflict. Maybe Delia is struggling with something and both Andy and Ephram try to help but it creates tension.

What about Delia liking girls and figuring out if it's normal to like girls instead of what every girl her age likes is guys. That's also something to consider given the intelligent Everwood writers that we had.

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) 4. In season two when Amy was dealing with her depression maybe we could have seen Ephram rebelling a bit... drinking a little too much, not taking piano seriously because he was upset over the Amy situation.

I can see Ephram pulling away a little bit, maybe not drinking/rebelling, but definitely distancing himself away from her. Ephram already lost one woman in his life that he treasured more than his own life, he couldn't handle the idea of losing another woman he loved. That's something to explore.

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) All very good points, Jerry! I agree that Ephram had no real love for Madison...only feelings of lust. I will admit at first I was okay with Madison...felt badly for Ephram because of Amy's rejection. I believed Madison to be good for Ephram's self-esteem which I believed was shattered. In hindsight...Madison's involvement was far from good...not only because of the pregnancy...but because her shame in being with him was definitely not good for Ephram's ego.

I don't even think it was lust, honestly. I think it was more Ephram needed someone that he thought wanted him back as much as he wanted them. Sure, Andy loved Ephram more than his own life, but Ephram couldn't get past using Andy has a punching bag.

Madison and Ephram's involvement wasn't the issue, they were okay as just dating. But once the sexual hormones started and they were intimate with each other, that's when all hell broke loose. Ephram thought he could handle a sexual relationship...in hindsight, he couldn't. The more involved he was with Madison, the more problems he had with Andy, Deliah and Amy. He shut everyone out thinking he was the king of relationships and could handle what was going on. It proved just how childish Ephram could be.

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) I also wish that Andy had fired Madison

THIS! Andy had every right to fire Madison as soon as he saw an attraction brewing from Ephram, because it was just a matter of time before Ephram acted on his impulses. Again, he was a mature kid, but still, he was a kid...a child even! Andy was so wanting Ephram to accept him and keep the house at peace that he didn't think about being a parent! Ephram knew that. Ephram knew he could get away with murder basically and Andy would turn a blind eye and deaf ear on whatever happened.

Sure, Ephram and Madison probably would have still dated, but they wouldn't have been around each other as much. Their trysts wouldn't have been under Andy's roof. That's what angers me so much is that Ephram hated his father, but wanted to do all this **** under Andy's roof. I mean, pot/kettle...have they met?!

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Andy had a huge feeling of guilt over his neglectful parenting when Julia was alive, and in some ways, he never had to be a parent when she was alive, so all this was still new to him, and he did let Ephram walk all over him due to that guilt. I could understand why he wanted to protect Ephram when Madison told him she was pregnant, but he handled everything all wrong and it all blew up in his face.

Andy was in such a lose/lose situation. He basically had two kids he barley knew dropped in his lap and said "have at it" and he just had to figure it out.

I think it made it more meaningful that Ephram was an *******, honestly. It made Andy see how angry Ephram was that Julia died and how much anger Ephram had for Andy being gone all the time. With Delia, she didn't know what was going on and it was all confusing to her. All she knew is that her mom was gone and she was in a different place and everyone was angry with each other. With Ephram's growth and letting his guard down and letting Andy into his life, you can feel the emotions and being free of guilt and anger. It's tragic to watch sometimes but so rewarding in Season 4

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) All very good points, Jerry! I agree that Ephram had no real love for Madison...only feelngs of lust. I will admit at first I was okay with Madison...felt badly for Ephram because of Amy's rejection. I believed Madison to be good for Ephram's seff-esteem which I believed was shattered. In hindsight...Madison's involvement was far from good...not only because of the pregnancy...but because her shame in being with him was definitely not good for Ephram's ego.

I also felt bad for Ephram at that time, because he loved Amy so much, but she wasn't ready to be with him. I remember feeling so infuriated when he passed his driving test, and Amy wanted to congratulate him, and he kissed Madison!

Ephram regressed when he was with Madison, and he regressed even more when Madison told him that she had his baby and gave that child up for adoption.

[Jerry D]

Here's an interesting article about some of the guest stars that were on Everwood:

https://www.bustle.com/p/17-everwood...-white-8614803

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Excellent thoughts everyone. I think that what Ephram felt for Madison was a combination of infatuation and lust. He was also in a vulnerable position because Amy had rejected him when she was still in the throes of her grief over Colin's death, and like the rest of the town, she blamed Andy for his death, and since Ephram was Andy's son, she associated him with Andy. He was never in love with Madison. I also wish that Andy had fired Madison as soon as she started bossing everyone around, and he should have put a stop to Ephram and Madison dating right away, but to be honest, I don't know who much he could have done to prevent what happened, because when you're a teenager, if your parent tells you to not do something or not see someone, you'll do the opposite of what they want just to spite them. Andy had a huge feeling of guilt over his neglectful parenting when Julia was alive, and in some ways, he never had to be a parent when she was alive, so all this was still new to him, and he did let Ephram walk all over him due to that guilt. I could understand why he wanted to protect Ephram when Madison told him she was pregnant, but he handled everything all wrong and it all blew up in his face.

Excellent thoughts.

You perfectly described what Ephram felt for Madison and why he went there.

I wonder if Andy should have gotten Nina involved. Nina gave great advice to Ephram in season 1 over his feelings for Amy and the Colin situation. She might have been able to discuss why Andy felt the way he did about him dating Madison and maybe she could have explained to Ephram why it was a bad idea. I know I always listened to my parents as a teenager. I never rebelled. Then again, I didn't ask for anything unreasonable and we had a healthy relationship. Ephram and Andy had an unstable relationship so it makes sense.

I actually dated a guy who was two years older than me when I was 17. He was 19. He was good friends with the guy that was dating my best friend at the time. My mom talked to me about it. She knew it was fine. To be blunt, I wouldn't have considered a physical relationship with him (beyond PG13 things) and she trusted me and knew it. We broke up early on during my first year of college.

I just remembered this, lol. I'm rambling but the point is I wish Andy would have tried harder around the time EM got started. Of course when she got pregnant he should have handled it differently too. He should have immediately gotten Ephram involved.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post) These are all terrific ideas and none of them would have lead to a pregnancy!

There were so many options. Berlanti didn't have to go the pregnancy route.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post) Here's an interesting article about some of the guest stars that were on Everwood: https://www.bustle.com/p/17-everwood...-white-8614803

Thanks for this. Some great guest characters on this show. I totally forgot Elizabeth Mitchell was on the show. She's a phenomenal actress. I loved her in Lost.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by break the window (View Post) I'm really sad they didn't dive more into Andy and Linda's relationship as well. It was obvious they had feelings for each other that went beyond just two fellow doctors. I think Andy and Linda would've been good together. So many possibilities there that could create conflict.... 1. She's the first woman in Andy's life after Julia died. That says a lot right there. Andy waited for Nina so long that it was past the point of the kids approving of it, it was more Andy getting off his ass and doing something about it. Ephram had to practically push Andy off the ledge to go talk to Nina and make her see that Andy really did have feelings for her. 2. I have to say it...HIV! How could that not be an issue. It's probably the only issue that kept Linda and Andy at bay from exploring their feelings for each other. That would've been the episode of the week having Andy and Linda contemplating being in an intimate/sexual relationship while having to deal with the elephant in the room of HIV. Sure, Andy being a doctor, he would know the risks in more ways than most people, as well as Linda, the one with the condition. So many ways to spin this storyline and with Everwood writers being as intelligent as they are, so many explorations to consider. Ephram had to have questions...."is it worth it," going through everything Andy was going through and his health being compromised. Andy was acting like a teenager who was interested in another woman that he had no business being with. Familiar!? The parallels with Andy and Ephram are almost laughable. They are like the same person sometimes, that's why it took them so long to be on even ground because they are so much alike. YES! OMG! YES! He could've been thrown into being The Great Doctor Brown again. Being gone all the time, seeing patients outside of the Everwood Community. Denver hospitals wanting his expertise all the time. So many wonderful opportunities. I always thought Andy would find any reason to submerge himself back into work and put his career over his family again. We all know Ephram would call him on it, for not being around, because Ephram was good at calling out other people on their **** even when he had his own **** to deal with. What about Delia liking girls and figuring out if it's normal to like girls instead of what every girl her age likes is guys. That's also something to consider given the intelligent Everwood writers that we had. I can see Ephram pulling away a little bit, maybe not drinking/rebelling, but definitely distancing himself away from her. Ephram already lost one woman in his life that he treasured more than his own life, he couldn't handle the idea of losing another woman he loved. That's something to explore. I don't even think it was lust, honestly. I think it was more Ephram needed someone that he thought wanted him back as much as he wanted them. Sure, Andy loved Ephram more than his own life, but Ephram couldn't get past using Andy has a punching bag. Madison and Ephram's involvement wasn't the issue, they were okay as just dating. But once the sexual hormones started and they were intimate with each other, that's when all hell broke loose. Ephram thought he could handle a sexual relationship...in hindsight, he couldn't. The more involved he was with Madison, the more problems he had with Andy, Deliah and Amy. He shut everyone out thinking he was the king of relationships and could handle what was going on. It proved just how childish Ephram could be. THIS! Andy had every right to fire Madison as soon as he saw an attraction brewing from Ephram, because it was just a matter of time before Ephram acted on his impulses. Again, he was a mature kid, but still, he was a kid...a child even! Andy was so wanting Ephram to accept him and keep the house at peace that he didn't think about being a parent! Ephram knew that. Ephram knew he could get away with murder basically and Andy would turn a blind eye and deaf ear on whatever happened. Sure, Ephram and Madison probably would have still dated, but they wouldn't have been around each other as much. Their trysts wouldn't have been under Andy's roof. That's what angers me so much is that Ephram hated his father, but wanted to do all this **** under Andy's roof. I mean, pot/kettle...have they met?! Andy was in such a lose/lose situation. He basically had two kids he barley knew dropped in his lap and said "have at it" and he just had to figure it out. I think it made it more meaningful that Ephram was an *******, honestly. It made Andy see how angry Ephram was that Julia died and how much anger Ephram had for Andy being gone all the time. With Delia, she didn't know what was going on and it was all confusing to her. All she knew is that her mom was gone and she was in a different place and everyone was angry with each other. With Ephram's growth and letting his guard down and letting Andy into his life, you can feel the emotions and being free of guilt and anger. It's tragic to watch sometimes but so rewarding in Season 4

Such great thoughts.

I love your ideas such as Delia struggling with her sexuality. We saw how beautifully Ephram handled the Kyle situation. Delia might have even figured out she was straight, not that it would have mattered either way but watching Andy and Ephram being there for her would have been great.

I really liked Andy and Linda and wish their storyline would have had even more focus. Having Treat and Marcia on the same screen together was amazing.

I don't know if it was supposed to be funny seeing Andy and Ephram stunned over Madison's bossiness but it annoyed me so much. It was strong and super over the top. Andy should have gotten rid of her immediately.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Auror (View Post) Excellent thoughts. You perfectly described what Ephram felt for Madison and why he went there. I wonder if Andy should have gotten Nina involved. Nina gave great advice to Ephram in season 1 over his feelings for Amy and the Colin situation. She might have been able to discuss why Andy felt the way he did about him dating Madison and maybe she could have explained to Ephram why it was a bad idea. I know I always listened to my parents as a teenager. I never rebelled. Then again, I didn't ask for anything unreasonable and we had a healthy relationship. Ephram and Andy had an unstable relationship so it makes sense. I actually dated a guy who was two years older than me when I was 17. He was 19. He was good friends with the guy that was dating my best friend at the time. My mom talked to me about it. She knew it was fine. To be blunt, I wouldn't have considered a physical relationship with him (beyond PG13 things) and she trusted me and knew it. We broke up early on during my first year of college. I just remembered this, lol. I'm rambling but the point is I wish Andy would have tried harder around the time EM got started. Of course when she got pregnant he should have handled it differently too. He should have immediately gotten Ephram involved.

Great thoughts Michelle.

I thought it was ludicrous that Andy told Madison that he didn't want Ephram to know she was pregnant because he wanted to "preserve his innocence" or words to that effect, but that ship had already sailed when he allowed him to date Madison and they had sex and she got pregnant! If he wanted to preserve Ephram's innocence, he should have never let him date Madison to begin with!