'Tos

Hmm. I never did get that sense, personally, but I do see why you and Michelle would think it was a possibility. I may be being naive (I usually am, hee), but I saw Tommy as the typical bad boy, but not necessarily a bad guy. But, again, I easily could be being naive on that one, heh.

Yeah, I think that's it exactly. *nods* I think Madison knew that the relationship was wrong in some sense, that it wasn't the right thing to do, and she was uncomfortable with that. And when she would get uncomfortable, she would default back to the baby sitter, wiser woman. I also think she was uncomfortable with, as Meredith pointed out, how different Ephram was than any other guy she had dated previously. I think you put those two factors together, and Madison had even less of an idea of how to handle the relationship than Ephram did, you know? She had no idea what to do in the relationship knowing that Andy was against it to such an extent (still think he should have done more, but he was in a tough spot, eh?), that he was too young for her, and that he was so different. In some ways, I think Ephram scared her. Not, like, "Boo!" scare, hee, but just because he was young and different.

Heh, agreed. Amy and Tommy were more wrong for each other than anything. They only got together because of the state Amy was in. But there wasn't anything inherently wrong with a relationship like that. But a relationship between Delia's babysitter and her brother? With that age difference? That's MESSED.

jediwands

This is so true. That's exactly what went on constantly. Add in the fact that while she was doing this, they were all gross and physical and it's enough to make me want to hurl.

Totally. She was used to the Jay style of treatment. Screwed up and abnormal was still comfortable to her. In Ephram she had someone completely opposite of what she was used to. That definitely had to have thrown her for a loop.

Exactly. You make a good point about Andy being against it yet going with too passive of an approach. Why do you think that was? Was it because he was dealing with his relationship with Linda or he liked the smooth waters going on between him and Ephram compared to season 1 so he didn't want to rock the boat? I also wonder if Andy would have put his foot down more, how Madison might have reacted? Would she have broken up with Ephram as a result or not?

Yes!

More power to the ones who remotely liked Ephram/Madison and even cheered for them. I almost wish I did belong to that group but it's simply never happening. I am far too grossed out, I can't help it.

SPORTSUSA

I agree.

I wish I could mildly tolerate them but I can't. I enjoy the Bright/Ephram scenes that might mention her but it's because of Bright/Ephram interacting, not the topic at hand.

I believe Madison had feelings for Ephram but I don't think she was in love with him. I agree she was hiding from her own true self while being with Ephram and you guys are so right how she would go back and forth in her personality because of guilt and knowing the relationship was wrong which made their physical aspect all the more disgusting.

As for Tommy... couldn't stand him (I agree with you two, Alex and Michelle, how he was totally unattactive, too, it didn't help!) and definitely I think he was using way before meeting Amy. That did not just all of a sudden start out of the blue.

I honestly couldn't stand either pairing, Ephram/Madison, Amy/Tommy, but I'm also with you guys that given how Amy/Tommy were short-lived, didn't sleep together, and they weren't with teh GROSS tag to them, they were easier to handle on the screen than Ephram/Madison, who were cringe-worthy for me from start to finish.

Also, I felt zero remorse for Madison as she told Ephram about the baby in NYC because of when she told him. I hated her before this and that didn't help but her timing proves what a complete idiot she was and always was for that matter.

'Tos

I think it all had to do with Ephram and, yes, not wanting to rock the boat because things were better between them. I think that he tried to talk to Ephram and have an adult conversation about Madiso, a lot like he talked to Ephram in S4, but Ephram wasn't ready yet. So, Andy didn't want to fight again. Of course, though, by not wanting to rock the boat, he created a situation where him and Ephram were ripped apart even further. Short term pain, long term gain and all that jazz, hee.

Good question on Madison. What do you think she would have done or how she would have reacted? I honestly have no idea!

Yeah, S2 would have been a lot more enjoyable if we did like them, eh?

SPORTSUSA

I actually think Madison might have rebelled and not listened to Andy. She seemed to have an attitude the moment she met him, why stop while sleeping with his son.

Yes, I am not fond of Madison.

jediwands

Exactly. I loved how real the Andy/Ephram relationship was though. Season 1, we saw how vulnerable and damaged their relationship was so it makes sense that season 2 was never going to be "perfect" because they were still in recovery mode. Andy didn't all of a sudden learn how to be the perfect father and Ephram didn't instantly learn how to be the perfect son either. Season 2, we saw them in almost a "friendship" type of father/son relationship and in a way I think they needed that given what they went through in season 1. They needed a break from drama, even if they made mistakes in season 2 in their relationship, especially, of course, what took place at the end of season 2.

I just loved the realness between them. Flawed = perfect for them. We see the one step forward, two steps back deal going on and while frustrating, it was still realistic and made tons of sense. Whenever they finally get to a wonderful place in season 4 it makes what they went through together TO get there all the more believable.

I'm not sure either! Erin, you might have a point that Madison could have told Andy to shove it and still stayed with Ephram if you go with how she appeared whenever she first arrived. That is entirely possible. However, if Andy would have sat Madison down and explained things in a mature, respectful manner, who knows? My guess is it all depends on how Andy would have presented it to her. If Andy went with fire and dominance, I know Madison would have given him the middle finger but if he would have gently and intellectually discussed it with her, maybe she might have understood and done the right thing?

Absolutely!

everwoodfan52

As you can see....I have been hiding from this discussion. At least I know that Alex felt the same way about the Ephram/Madison relationship as I did. So, my feelings can't be that bad. .
I have to agree with all of you, however......I despised her horrible timing in informing Ephram about the baby. I was also very disappointed in Andy when he told Madison, "Tell him Everything," which elicited the reply, "I plan to."
Why the hell didn't Andy ask her to wait until AFTER the audition to tell him everything?!? Why is it that the fans are the only ones with logic in these situations?

jediwands

Well, I have told Alex she is nuts with her line of thinking regarding this pairing so....

JK.

I have told her plenty of times she's nuts, but not for this.

It is interesting, though, that Alex watched EM after knowing what happened at the end of season 2. I have to wonder if she might have had different thoughts if the episode watching was different for her? I've never asked her about this. Hmm.

Madison was just pissed off at Andy during that scene and it became to her at least a battle of gaining back some power from him. You could tell she wanted blood, Andy's blood in particular because in her mind he boxed her into a corner but IMO he never did that in the least bit. I don't believe Andy put a knife against her throat and threatened her to not tell Ephram. Sure, he made it clear he didn't want Ephram knowing but Madison was a big girl and she made her own decision not to tell Ephram, I refuse to blame Andy for that. Madison called the shots there no matter what in my mind.

I feel like Andy told her that because he didn't think he had any right to propose that request. I just felt like he was doing what he thought was best in that very moment. Again, in my mind, it was MADISON, not Andy, who made the decision of not only not telling Ephram from the start as well is WHEN she finally told Ephram. Andy never told Madison to please tell Ephram hours before the audition. He never specified when she should tell him. In my mind I don't think Andy even needed to propose that in the first place... moronic Madison should have known better! She held the cards in her hands and didn't have the decency to wait for another DAY. ONE MORE DAY is all she had to do... she could have told Ephram she wanted to meet him after his audition to say goodbye and see how his audition went, THEN she could have told him. But that made too much sense for Madison... she couldn't have done something like that... nope, she needed to screw Andy and ultimately Ephram and that is just what she did.

everwoodfan52

Yeah, it was ultimately up to Madison to decide when to tell Ephram. Just giving her the benefit of the doubt (like I often do. ).....I'm thinking that perhaps Madison didn't initially want to tell Ephram about the baby at the coffee shop. She didn't immediately say anything about it. Ephram kept pressing and asking questions....then he started to get upset because he felt that Madison still considered him a baby and didn't want to talk to him about stuff.
She then blurted it out without thinking. (I was still infuriated that she did that!! )...but maybe she really didn't want to do it? She didn't squeal on Andy. She took all the blame....(although most of the blame was hers because she really shouldn't have listened to Andy in the first place.

jediwands

That's what I find so ironic... why did she listen to Andy about not initially telling Ephram? Was she just way too confused, upset, vulnerable and weak, essentially in shock, over her pregnancy so she went all passive and listened to him? Couldn't she think for herself back then? In NYC at their meeting I had the impression that Madison did hold Andy accountable for why she never told Ephram from the beginning and I thought that was so unfair and ridiculous. Like I said Andy strongly suggested she not tell Ephram that she was pregnant but he did not threaten her, he didn't do anything that prevented her from using her own mind and decision-making. It seems she felt he did take away her rights though based on her anger.

'Tos

Hee, Betty, feel free to shout your opinion out loud, whether it goes against the grain or not.

The journey was so real between them. It was hard, it was a struggle, they almost lost each other multiple times on the way through, but it was real, and by the end, it meant so much more that they truly found each other and would never lose each other ever.

Yes, I think so. I remember her fretting more than Ephram did about Andy's feelings about the relationship. She was definitely more concerned. Ephram was stupidly thinking he was adult enough so that his father shouldn't matter. He did. Madison thought that he did at first too. So, yes, I think a discussion may have worked.

Agreed about the audition fiasco, of course.

Because it's always easier to look at situations when we're not actively involved in them? I always liked that about Everwood, how we cared so much about the characters, that we'd say how stupid or illogical they were being. But, I think, a lot of the mistakes the characters made are some of the the same mistakes we'd all make. Because that's what people do most of the time: mess up. And hopefully learn from those mess ups and then try and not repeat them and learn and grow from those mess ups. And Andy and Ephram sure had enough mess ups to learn from by the end of the series, eh? Luckily, they did learn from them.

Louisa C

Watched this ep last night, and it was really good!
Bright singing Independent Woman is hysterical, I loved Harold's barb about Andy being "as persistent as a wart virus", Rose knowing everything & being a really good reader of people/knowing a good romantic match. Ephram's jay-bird babble was really funny & reminded me of Seth Cohen of The OC's babbling (and the gestures Ephram made when Delia invited Madison to her slumber party reminded me of Seth's mad gesturing in the ep where he, Summer & Ryan are trying to get Marissa out of hospital) and it also made me think of Lorelai of Gilmore Girls rant about how scary her brain is and she makes a whole load of examples of connections her brain makes, ending up with "monkey-monkey-underpants". I love both The OC & Gilmore Girls, mainly for their nerdy, pop-culture-loving, well-read characters!
Tommy's eyebrows reminded me of Peter Gallagher's, but, other than that, I think he's quite good looking! I definitely got a slightly stalkery/let's take advantage of the troubled girl vibe from him when he was watching or talking to Amy.
I also felt Madison's speech to Ephram was incredibly emotionally manipulative, as she'd realised how he felt about her for quite a while and it just came across so wrong! Also ewww to her coming into his room towards the end of the episode!
It's also weird to see Andy & Ephram cohabiting quite happily, not arguing/yelling or biting eachother's heads off, so I had to watch The Unveiling to compensate! I love that both the Brown boys are into the big romantic gestures though, that's something else they have in common!

'Tos

Hee! Nice. It is odd to see them getting along. At the same time, there's definitely an edge that's not there in S4 when they are really bonding and connecting. Mostly, here, they're just trying to keep the peace, but there are so many arguments bubbling beneath the surface, heh. Even then, though, it's odd seeing the two of them allow themselves to keep things quiet instead of argue.

Yes! Absolutely. They also very much respect strong partners. The grand gestures, though, I love those.

I was thinking, since we've got some momentum, which rocks, maybe I should just post the next episode a day or two early so we can get on it, while still keeping any discussion going here, of course. Everyone okay with that?

jediwands

I'm all for starting the new episode!

Exactly. I loved the evolution of this father/son dynamic. The tough times only made them stronger and their realness was so profound and beautiful.

Taken straight from a psychology textbook, heh. So true.

Thank you! I couldn't have said it better. So hurl-inducing... Madison absolutely knew what Ephram was waiting to hear and whenever she glides into his room like there is nothing wrong with it I wanted to scream. That was so cringe-worthy.

jediwands

Dp