jediwands

Thanks, Betty!

I rather watch two drunken fools in a bar getting ready to fight and mess up the joint over watching EM in any fashion.

True!

Absolutely. I love comparing how little Bright had to give advice to Ephram over Amy. They still talked about Amy but outside of a few instances like Amy holding the grudge over the band lie, Ephram really didn't need Bright for relationship advice because Ephram/Amy were so silky smooth, without any issues since they were so right for each other.

Oh man... very tough question. I think I'd have to say Madison because of how she lingered on and on and ON throughout the series. The baby situation, circumstances cause me to say Madison more than Tommy. Overall, it's simply tough watching either couple in season 2. Like that scene Alex and I discussed where Tommy is putting on the moves to get with Amy, that was so frustrating because he was saying things she wanted to hear, that is all. He didn't know her in the least bit. Madison and Ephram just grossed me out. No matter how hard I try I cannot stomach their scenes. I just can't. I get such a bad feeling whenever viewing those two on the screen together. It weirds me out even if I know how it all ends up and having the knowledge that Ephram learned from this relationship... doesn't matter how many reasons I can list and try to process in my head in order to make their scenes more bearable to endure... it never works. They simply repulse me, man. LOL.

More or less my issue was that given her behavior Ephram had no choice but to feel she was embarrassed to be seen with him and that is the part that I think sucked rocks... how Ephram was made to feel based on her behavior. Didn't like that too much. She certainly could have sex with him yet she was afraid of getting into trouble being seen out in public? That is just so wrong!

Oh yeah, my heart ached for her. You can tell how much it took out of her to say those words to him and his silence was definitely piercing.

Taryn74

I haven't wandered into the Amy/Tommy thread, so I don't know the general feel of everyone here, but am I the only one that kinda liked Tommy and could see how he was good for Amy? I honestly don't think he was dealing yet when they got together, so I don't think he was lying to her when they started dating.

everwoodfan52

You should check out the Amy/Tommy thread, Taryn.


That's a tough one....they never really said. Ephram did see Tommy selling something to Madison's band when he was there. I'm not sure if this was new behavior on his part.

SPORTSUSA

Mitch + Alex, this is brilliant stuff, you guys. I love it so much.

Louisa, you are so right on about how you feel their chemistry together. It's so there, and it's so beautiful.

I couldn't stand Tommy from the moment I saw him. I completely agree with you guys when you said Tommy knew what he was doing with Amy from the start. He knew she was wounded and I couldn't stand how he acted like he knew her.

Whether he was doing drugs or not at the time he sensed Amy was weak and he went for it. Would he have gone for someone who wasn't going to put up with him? No way. He did and said the right things. You guys are correct here. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't despise Tommy more.

This creative thing you guys did has made me want to rewatch too. You brought a ton of life to this thread, you two! I'm with Louisa, I now want to rewatch!

'Tos

Excellent idea, Alex and Michelle! Great read! So glad to have you both on the rewatch train!

I think that's interesting, because I disliked Madison more than Tommy too, but at least Madison GOT Ephram. you know? She knew who he was and understood him. Tommy understood that Amy was in a bad place. That's it. But I still found Madison and Ephram harder to watch even though she at least connected with him in a genuine way. I don't understand it, hee.

I'm sure you're not the only one at all, Taryn. How did you see Tommy as possibly being good for Amy? I think a lot of people see it differently, that Tommy was more bad than good, so it would be great to get another perspective.

buffyannAlex

I'm glad you enjoyed the chat commentary, it was very refreshing to do so thanks for the words everyone
It's cool to watch Everwood that way, I felt almost like I was doign an audio commentary for the show

jediwands

This is precisely how I feel. It does seem a bit confusing, doesn't it, since it seems like we should dislike Tommy a lot more given that Madison did at least understand Ephram but it didn't quite work out that way. Outside of that first AT kiss I could get through their scenes fairly well mainly because I knew they weren't going anywhere. Amy also never slept with him. It was just a very screwed up but non-threatening so called relationship. On the other hand, Ephram/Madison might have been pegged the same way in that they never were structured as having anything lasting but what they did have was fingers down a chalkboard and I just couldn't escape how "wrong" they felt from day 1. The scene that I commented on where they are sitting there and Ephram is looking so young is just so tough on the eyes. Madison's character as a whole just annoys the hell out of me. I stated she couldn't be out in public with him yet she could bed him? That is so messed up, man. I didn't find one thing about their relationship endearing and I never will.

everwoodfan52

No, she didn't. That makes me realize that the writers believed in the double standard. They felt that Amy should save herself for her true love (Ephram)...but it was acceptable for Ephram not to save himself for Amy. Interesting.
I could see how that would piss people off.

jediwands

I'm still glad Amy didn't because I would have found it completely out of character for her to go there (situationally depressed or not) given her traits. But I totally see the double standard.

How do you feel about it, Betty?

everwoodfan52

I'm okay with it. I guess I believe in the double standard. If you remember...Ephram/Madison at her apartment and Ephram/Madison in the car....I didn't see any love there. I saw a 16 year old boy with raging hormones...lots of lust....but no love.
With Amy....it would have to be love. Just lust would be unacceptable from her. She would have felt badly afterward...I know it.

jediwands

Totally, totally concur. Yes, she would have since it had to be about love for her. Absolutely. Even if her thinking ability was a bit off and her moods were unstable during this time due to the depression the core of Amy was still very much there. She was not going to sleep with him no matter what. You make wonderful points about how they structured the "sleeping together arrangements" for Ephram/Madison, very much demonstrating the lack of love and more or less, lust, for Ephram. Ephram confused the lust with love for a while and at 16, that confusion also makes sense.

I keep wondering what Madison truly felt for Ephram... what exactly were Madison's feelings for Ephram?

Taryn74

Well, I have a hard time explaining it. I really think that for a while (a good long while, sadly) Tommy was the only person who really listened to Amy about where she was at right then. Since Tommy was the only person in her life who wasn't around before Colin's death, he didn't have any kind of Before Colin Amy/After Colin Amy comparisons to deal with. He just took her at face value, he could see that she was hurting and needed some help, but he didn't spend all of his time rationalizing her condition and concerned about how much she had changed and all that. It just was what it was with him, and she needed that. Not indefinitely, which is why they were never meant for the long run, but for a while she needed that.

I never found him terribly unnattractive either. Yeah he was called Eyebrows for a good reason, but I thought he was kinda cute.

ETA - In a way Amy's relationship with Tommy reminded me of her relationship with Early Ephram. Though Ephram was never a druggie or anything of course, for a while he really was a prick and Amy was the only person who bothered to look past his 'screw the world' attitude and took time to get to know the real person. I see her doing the same with Tommy, unfortunately Tommy himself was just too messed up to end up in a better place for it.

MeredithLuvsMnJ

I got the sense that she liked him because he was a descent guy compared to the band guy and maybe even those guys she dated before... I recall her roommate telling Andy I think that her mom was a religious nut so maybe once Madison broke free from her mother (or maybe even before) she went for bad guys and it was now the normal thing for her... Ephram was a good and innocent guy and that could be what attracted her to him...

I was put out with Madison from the get go because I didn't like the way she came in initially... she was a bit too pushy with Ephram and once she started "liking" him, I was even more put off because I couldn't get past seeing them as an adult dating a child... plus I didn't care for her putting herself in that kind of position... sexing the boss' kid and jeopardizing not only her job but the relationship she had with Delia, the person she was hired to look after.

While I didn't trust Tommy and thought he was selling all along, I could stomach him a bit more because he and Amy were more equals adn I didn't feel like he was taking advantage of her so much as I felt with Madison and Ephram.

I did however get the feeling that Tommy would take advantage of Amy at that party and maybe he would have had he not OD'ed.

'Tos

Yeah, the youthness made it seem really wrong, I agree. Although, I also think that Tommy was more of a "predator" than Madison really was. Tommy preyed on Amy's vulnerability for me. I'm not sure that Madison ever really took advantage of Ephram's vulnerability in the same way. Ephram, I think, was more aware of who Madison was and what she wanted and what he wanted than Amy ever was with Tommy. And yet I still find Ephram/Madison harder to watch. You're right, it is confusing!

Taryn, yes, I do agree that since Tommy didn't know Amy before Colin or with Colin, he took her at face value. She did need to be around someone that wouldn't feel sorry for her all the time. Not even Ephram could be that for her at that point, for good reason. I just have trouble with Tommy kind of feeding Amy's depressed side and darker side rather than doing anything positive for her. I felt like he wanted her to be in a sad state, because that was the only way he would have any shot with her: if she was damaged and stayed damaged.

To me, while everyone was trying to help her in their own misguided ways, he was doing anything but helping her. Yet, despite his best efforts, he probably did help her because, as you said, she needed that someone who wouldn't compare her to what she was like before Colin.

Good question. I agree 100% with Meredith in that Madison did genuinely like him. She noticed that he was different from the guys she liked and different from most guys in general. It's just interesting that since she did genuinely like him, she rarely treated him as her equal.

jediwands

Great thoughts. I agree. You make a wonderful point about her pattern of guys she dated precious to Ephram and how her mother very well could have played a part in all of this. Absolutely. I don't think it's a coincidence there was almost like a transition where she goes right from Jay to Ephram in such a quick, and yes, annoying fashion. It was out with the one, in with the other. I think this goes right along with what you are saying.

I couldn't stand Madison from the moment she showed up on the screen. This had nothing to do with wanting to hate Ephram with anyone but Amy, either. I liked the Ephram/Laynie pairing so it was not that at all. I couldn't stomach Madison immediately. That was my first impression and then you add on the other stuff like the witinessing an adult dating a child (gross!) coupled with bedding the boss' child (watching her just stroll into Ephram's bedroom was so disgusting and eye opening!) was so horrific.

As a result, I squirmed and continue to squirm while watching any of their scenes. To top off my dislike of Madison I keep picturing her in that NYC restaurant/coffee-house telling Ephram about the baby the night before the audition. Seriously? Can she do anything right? From start to finish I couldn't stand her and I cringed throughout all the EM scenes.

Totally down with your thoughts, all of them, Ephram/Madison, Madison as a whole, and Tommy, Amy/Tommy as well.

Whenever Tommy told Amy that anti-depressants were not a big deal and Amy's response to him I think that was a huge red flag right away we were dealing with someone who was going to turn out being a bad boy to the largest degree. Not that anti-depressants are to be compared to hardcore drugs but the fact that he blew it off like it was nothing was a huge clue that he had much more up his sleeve when it came to substances he was quite familiar with, heh.

Exactly! Do you think it's because she knew deep down she had no business dating him even if she did truly like him? I really don't know why she went there... she would call him "sweetie" like she was his mother and then have sex with him. Seriously, vomit-inducing. She went back and forth from this older and wiser woman (when we all know deep down she was more immature than Ephram) and then in the next breath acted the complete opposite. I think she struggled with the knowledge as the relationship progressed that her and Ephram should not be together yet she couldn't pull the plug at the same time, so we saw a hot and cold Madison, and one that didn't always treat Ephram like he deserved to be treated.

It is! And I so agree that I viewed Tommy as very predator-like. Tommy went in for the kill knowing that Amy had a fragile mind and her vulnerabilities were so exposed. He grabbed on and cashed in. Now, he didn't really torture her for sex too much but I still think he loved being able to sort of manipulate Amy into falling for his fake charm and bad boy ways. I do agree that he definitely could have tried taking advantage of Amy had he not overdosed. Definitely. I think it could have progressed to something very dramatic and serious for Amy had Tommy not self destructed like that.

Ephram/Madison, to me, is just so "wrong" on every level for multiple reasons whereas Amy/Tommy were as well and Tommy was a game player with Amy but what causes Ephram/Madison to be way more repulsive is all of those elements that were thrown together to create such an abnormal mixture for them. It's just way too hard not to call it poison, heh.