Everwood - Everwood Fans who are Dawson/Joey & Pacey/Andie Fans of DC #15: Even Kevin Williamson's very own mother hated the ending. - Page 2

**jediwands** · 02-04-2018, 07:58 AM

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Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post)

Lol, agreed

Prison time, lol.

**jediwands** · 02-04-2018, 08:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)

What I think happened is several things:

I don’t think anyone expected Dawson’s Creek to be so popular and to be renewed because it was a Mid-Season Replacement show on a largely unknown network, so Kevin Williamson put everything into that one season, and it played out like a Mini-Series, with a Beginning, a Middle and a very satisfying End.

So true. I remember in an interview he even stated he thought the show was ending after the finale of 1 so he made sure the Dawson/Joey ending transpired. I actually feel like the show should have ended right then. It was a nice movie. Or if we received another season or two, he could have inserted some obstacles (but nothing off the wall) until they received the happy ending once again. The finale of 4 was made to go back to the season 1 finale ending. Only issue is PJ existed and ruined that finale of 4 magic.

But if the series would have ended after just one season it would have been the ultimate. Beautiful movie. Imagine... we'd still be talking about it now.

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Once the show was renewed, the writers and producers were faced with the dilemma “What do we do now?” and since Dawson and Joey had kissed at the end of Season One, the “will-they or won’t they” aspect of their relationship was gone, so they broke them up to try and recreate that dynamic, but when they did that, they destroyed their friendship and made both Dawson and Joey look bad, especially Joey, and they destroyed everything that had made them special in the first place.

Of course Kevin couldn't have been creative and kept them together romantically while writing drama in other aspects of their lives. For example, things getting bad for Joey's dad... maybe Joey pulls away slightly from Dawson and they have some fighting but after a short pause (while still together) they communicate and work it out. It would have been easy to keep them together while creating other issues for the secondary characters or in their own lives but not allowing it to massively affect their dynamic.

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In addition to that, Kevin Williamson’s career outside of Dawson’s Creek took off after Season One, so his involvement in the show pretty much ended after that season, so even though he was ostensibly involved in Season Two, he really wasn’t, and Paul Stupin started running the show and Williamson left the show entirely after Season Two, and the subsequent seasons were a disaster and they increasingly focused on Joey and Pacey and Joey.

What's so funny about this is while Williamson's career took off, it's not like he was turning into Chris Carter, Joss Whedon, or J.J. Abrams. Especially since he basically went into movies and outside of the Scream franchise, he didn't explode or anything.

Also... think about how long it must have taken him to create Dawson's Creek inside his head... it was loosely based on his childhood... he must have been dreaming for years about creating a form of his childhood on the small screen... easy to come up with content, but probably took years to come up with the exact format. Also, it's not like the WB was putting out this type of series regularly... not, ever actually! Outside of 90210 on Fox this type of show never existed... so he needed to sell something brand new... all of this takes time and energy and with him, it was personal and very emotional...

His dream comes true and what does he do? After about 12 or so months (since like we said, he might have been around for season 2 but not as much as season 1) he was already gone! He abandoned something so special to him... he made a dream happen and thought nothing of moving on in one year to supposedly bigger and better things. Not saying he shouldn't have been happy to get more opportunities, especially on the big screen. But you'd think he'd want to do everything in his power to stay close to Dawson's Creek. Yes, the show was filmed in North Carolina and not Hollywood so that played a part... but there are airplanes and other ways to stay close and make sure everything was on track. He just didn't care.

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Katie Holmes became tremendously popular, and she was one of the first actresses to become popular through the Internet with websites devoted to worshipping her, and even we used to have a Katie Holmes website called Katie Holmes Pictures before we stopped hosting websites and we concentrated on just hosting forums after the Media Blvd. split. As a result, I feel that she became jaded and vain, and she started relying on cutesy mannerisms and mugging for the camera instead of doing any real acting.

While I liked Coda (season 4 finale) you can really see the cutesy mannerisms and mugging for the camera in that one, especially when Joey tells the "do you believe in magic" story. However, nothing was worse than her ridiculous moments as Joey with Pacey throughout season 4. Nauseating. I am sure TPTB instructed her to take on this new portrayal too.

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The producers and writers focused more and more on Joey because of Katie’s popularity but like you said Michelle the writers had a misogynistic bent and Joey was reduced to being just a “prize” to be “won” by one of the two main male characters. My understanding is that the entire original writing team was gone by Season Three, as was Kevin Williamson, and that original writing team wrote the female characters in a much better way than the later writing team did.[/List]

Really sad. This show had so much potential and went down the tubes. It should have ended after the credits rolled in Decisions.

**stlavin95** · 02-04-2018, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post)

Prison time, lol.

Which would suck for Peyton

**jediwands** · 02-04-2018, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stlavin95 (View Post)

Which would suck for Peyton

I know! At least she could do some art but then again I'm not sure anyone would want to look at the art she creates locked up in prison.

**stlavin95** · 02-04-2018, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post)

I know! At least she could do some art but then again I'm not sure anyone would want to look at the art she creates locked up in prison.

Hahhaha

**Alexa** · 02-04-2018, 11:00 PM

Definitely dont agree Brooke had less issues for Lucas.

Less issues as in, he didnt care about her that much so with her their relationship was pretty stress free and easy, then sure. lol. but even that is a weak argument, because it clearly wasnt stress free.

Its not true that Peyton only wanted Lucas when he was wth someone else.

Its not her fault he was always dating someone.... She wanted him all of season 1 when he was single. She wanted him at the end of season 5 when he and Lindsey were no longer together. She didnt seem to want him when he was dating Anna in season 2, so that argument just doesnt hold up. TBH she simply just always had feelings for him, period.

How does Peyton act selfish with Lucas? The only time that can be said, and imo, the only time she was shown to be a bad friend, was when she cheated with Lucas in season 1. That was her biggest mistake and the haters just never let her live it down. But besides that, when was she a bad friend?

In fact, one could argue Brooke was the bad friend.
-She kissed Pete when Peyton was dating him.
-She went after Lucas to begin with when she knew that Peyton had feelings for him.
-She tried to push NP back together knowing full well that Nathan was not good for Peyton.
-She slept with Nathan while Peyton and Nathan were still on/off again.
-She slapped Peyton, made fun of her dead mom all for what, Peyton telling her the truth about her feelings?
-She tried to make Haley look horrible in front of Nathan in season 1 for no reason at all.
-She stole the tests and made Haley take the fall for it in season 4.
-She was rude to Haley and everyone else in 310 when she was forcing everyone to make dresses for her.
-She lashed out on Haley and called her a whore or something to that effect when Haley didnt like the hideous dress Brooke made her.
-She was technically friends with Lucas and she hurt him by sleeping with Chris before they got together.
-After the BL break up in season 1 she lied to Lucas about being pregnant. I know they werent friends then but its still a crappy thing to do to a person.

I'm sure there are more examples but those are right off the top of my head.

Brooke also acted selfishly with Lucas because she wanted him to save her and whined about it in 317 after the shooting. She expected him to just know everything about what she wanted at the start of season 3 even though she never was open and honest with him about her feelings. She accused him of having feelings for Peyton after she found out about the kiss, which was unfair because Lucas really had been nothing but loyal to her that season.

**stlavin95** · 02-04-2018, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post)

Definitely dont agree Brooke had less issues for Lucas.

Less issues as in, he didnt care about her that much so with her their relationship was pretty stress free and easy, then sure. lol. but even that is a weak argument, because it clearly wasnt stress free.

Its not true that Peyton only wanted Lucas when he was wth someone else.

Its not her fault he was always dating someone.... She wanted him all of season 1 when he was single. She wanted him at the end of season 5 when he and Lindsey were no longer together. She didnt seem to want him when he was dating Anna in season 2, so that argument just doesnt hold up. TBH she simply just always had feelings for him, period.

How does Peyton act selfish with Lucas? The only time that can be said, and imo, the only time she was shown to be a bad friend, was when she cheated with Lucas in season 1. That was her biggest mistake and the haters just never let her live it down. But besides that, when was she a bad friend?

In fact, one could argue Brooke was the bad friend.
-She kissed Pete when Peyton was dating him.
-She went after Lucas to begin with when she knew that Peyton had feelings for him.
-She tried to push NP back together knowing full well that Nathan was not good for Peyton.
-She slept with Nathan while Peyton and Nathan were still on/off again.
-She slapped Peyton, made fun of her dead mom all for what, Peyton telling her the truth about her feelings?
-She tried to make Haley look horrible in front of Nathan in season 1 for no reason at all.
-She stole the tests and made Haley take the fall for it in season 4.
-She was rude to Haley and everyone else in 310 when she was forcing everyone to make dresses for her.
-She lashed out on Haley and called her a whore or something to that effect when Haley didnt like the hideous dress Brooke made her.
-She was technically friends with Lucas and she hurt him by sleeping with Chris before they got together.
-After the BL break up in season 1 she lied to Lucas about being pregnant. I know they werent friends then but its still a crappy thing to do to a person.

I'm sure there are more examples but those are right off the top of my head.

Brooke also acted selfishly with Lucas because she wanted him to save her and whined about it in 317 after the shooting. She expected him to just know everything about what she wanted at the start of season 3 even though she never was open and honest with him about her feelings. She accused him of having feelings for Peyton after she found out about the kiss, which was unfair because Lucas really had been nothing but loyal to her that season.

Agreed with all of that

Though I'm not sure whether I would call Lucas an loyal boyfriend in S3.

**jediwands** · 02-05-2018, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post)

Definitely dont agree Brooke had less issues for Lucas.

Less issues as in, he didnt care about her that much so with her their relationship was pretty stress free and easy, then sure. lol. but even that is a weak argument, because it clearly wasnt stress free.

Its not true that Peyton only wanted Lucas when he was wth someone else.

Its not her fault he was always dating someone.... She wanted him all of season 1 when he was single. She wanted him at the end of season 5 when he and Lindsey were no longer together. She didnt seem to want him when he was dating Anna in season 2, so that argument just doesnt hold up. TBH she simply just always had feelings for him, period.

How does Peyton act selfish with Lucas? The only time that can be said, and imo, the only time she was shown to be a bad friend, was when she cheated with Lucas in season 1. That was her biggest mistake and the haters just never let her live it down. But besides that, when was she a bad friend?

In fact, one could argue Brooke was the bad friend.
-She kissed Pete when Peyton was dating him.
-She went after Lucas to begin with when she knew that Peyton had feelings for him.
-She tried to push NP back together knowing full well that Nathan was not good for Peyton.
-She slept with Nathan while Peyton and Nathan were still on/off again.
-She slapped Peyton, made fun of her dead mom all for what, Peyton telling her the truth about her feelings?
-She tried to make Haley look horrible in front of Nathan in season 1 for no reason at all.
-She stole the tests and made Haley take the fall for it in season 4.
-She was rude to Haley and everyone else in 310 when she was forcing everyone to make dresses for her.
-She lashed out on Haley and called her a whore or something to that effect when Haley didnt like the hideous dress Brooke made her.
-She was technically friends with Lucas and she hurt him by sleeping with Chris before they got together.
-After the BL break up in season 1 she lied to Lucas about being pregnant. I know they werent friends then but its still a crappy thing to do to a person.

I'm sure there are more examples but those are right off the top of my head.

Brooke also acted selfishly with Lucas because she wanted him to save her and whined about it in 317 after the shooting. She expected him to just know everything about what she wanted at the start of season 3 even though she never was open and honest with him about her feelings. She accused him of having feelings for Peyton after she found out about the kiss, which was unfair because Lucas really had been nothing but loyal to her that season.

Alexa, your post (posts in general)/analysis = pure brilliance.

I love your Capricorn way of getting down to business and laying it all out.

I couldn't agree more with your every word. Rachel, I'm wondering what you think of what Alexa said? She explained things way more perfectly than I ever could!

We want to talk about real cheating, deceit, manipulation, look no further than Brooke Davis.

PS: My PM is coming. Sorry it's so delayed. I want to put thought into it is why.

secretk · 02-05-2018, 04:56 AM

So for the Greek fans I watched a movie yesterday with Michelle Williams. She played the mother of a 16 years old boy that was kidnapped in Italy. The movie is based on true events. It's called "All the money in the world".

**jediwands** · 02-05-2018, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post)

So for the Greek fans I watched a movie yesterday with Michelle Williams. She played the mother of a 16 years old boy that was kidnapped in Italy. The movie is based on true events. It's called "All the money in the world".

That's cool. I've never seen it. I believe Michelle was clearly the most talented actor on the show. She was held back because she wasn't the IT girl (and never wanted to be that girl on the WB for that matter) but that kind of talent cannot be held back for long. Once she left Dawson's Creek eventually her career took off. It's not a coincidence. She's even admitted Dawson's Creek gave her stability and a fresh start but she wasn't that invested in the role/show as a whole. She would sneak in independent films which is what she really desired but once she could finally wipe her hands from Dawson's Creek her talent simply couldn't be denied and the right people in Hollywood understood as much.

Forwood4Bamon · 02-05-2018, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post)

Definitely dont agree Brooke had less issues for Lucas.

Less issues as in, he didnt care about her that much so with her their relationship was pretty stress free and easy, then sure. lol. but even that is a weak argument, because it clearly wasnt stress free.

Its not true that Peyton only wanted Lucas when he was wth someone else.

Its not her fault he was always dating someone.... She wanted him all of season 1 when he was single. She wanted him at the end of season 5 when he and Lindsey were no longer together. She didnt seem to want him when he was dating Anna in season 2, so that argument just doesnt hold up. TBH she simply just always had feelings for him, period.

How does Peyton act selfish with Lucas? The only time that can be said, and imo, the only time she was shown to be a bad friend, was when she cheated with Lucas in season 1. That was her biggest mistake and the haters just never let her live it down. But besides that, when was she a bad friend?

In fact, one could argue Brooke was the bad friend.
-She kissed Pete when Peyton was dating him.
-She went after Lucas to begin with when she knew that Peyton had feelings for him.
-She tried to push NP back together knowing full well that Nathan was not good for Peyton.
-She slept with Nathan while Peyton and Nathan were still on/off again.
-She slapped Peyton, made fun of her dead mom all for what, Peyton telling her the truth about her feelings?
-She tried to make Haley look horrible in front of Nathan in season 1 for no reason at all.
-She stole the tests and made Haley take the fall for it in season 4.
-She was rude to Haley and everyone else in 310 when she was forcing everyone to make dresses for her.
-She lashed out on Haley and called her a whore or something to that effect when Haley didnt like the hideous dress Brooke made her.
-She was technically friends with Lucas and she hurt him by sleeping with Chris before they got together.
-After the BL break up in season 1 she lied to Lucas about being pregnant. I know they werent friends then but its still a crappy thing to do to a person.

I'm sure there are more examples but those are right off the top of my head.

Brooke also acted selfishly with Lucas because she wanted him to save her and whined about it in 317 after the shooting. She expected him to just know everything about what she wanted at the start of season 3 even though she never was open and honest with him about her feelings. She accused him of having feelings for Peyton after she found out about the kiss, which was unfair because Lucas really had been nothing but loyal to her that season.

yes thats true. I don't blame peyton but I'm not seeing it with LP.

I rewatched sason 4.

secretk · 02-05-2018, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post)

That's cool. I've never seen it. I believe Michelle was clearly the most talented actor on the show. She was held back because she wasn't the IT girl (and never wanted to be that girl on the WB for that matter) but that kind of talent cannot be held back for long. Once she left Dawson's Creek eventually her career took off. It's not a coincidence. She's even admitted Dawson's Creek gave her stability and a fresh start but she wasn't that invested in the role/show as a whole. She would sneak in independent films which is what she really desired but once she could finally wipe her hands from Dawson's Creek her talent simply couldn't be denied and the right people in Hollywood understood as much.

It is a new movie. I think that she played her role quite well. Basically the idea of the movie is that the grandson of a very wealthy man is kidnapped and the guy is not willing to pay the 17 mln ransom that is asked. So she basically has to ask/beg her former father in law for the money.

After 5 months of negotiations they settled down on 3 mln with the kidnappers and got their son back, but apparently he never recovered from the drama. It's a sad story because you know that it's real.

**jediwands** · 02-05-2018, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post)

It is a new movie. I think that she played her role quite well. Basically the idea of the movie is that the grandson of a very wealthy man is kidnapped and the guy is not willing to pay the 17 mln ransom that is asked. So she basically has to ask/beg her former father in law for the money.

After 5 months of negotiations they settled down on 3 mln with the kidnappers and got their son back, but apparently he never recovered from the drama. It's a sad story because you know that it's real.

Sounds really sad, indeed. Glad she did a nice job. Doesn't surprise me since she's filled with talent.

Oh is this the movie you saw in the theater yesterday?

secretk · 02-05-2018, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post)

Sounds really sad, indeed. Glad she did a nice job. Doesn't surprise me since she's filled with talent.

The role was a bit difficult as the movie was not your typical Holywood movie. Believe it or not there was a scene where some reported asked her why is she not crying for her son. She managed it so well.

Quote:

Oh is this the movie you saw in the theater yesterday?

Yes. This is the movie we saw

.

**jediwands** · 02-05-2018, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post)

The role was a bit difficult as the movie was not your typical Holywood movie. Believe it or not there was a scene where some reported asked her why is she not crying for her son. She managed it so well.

Yes. This is the movie we saw

.

She loves those not typical Hollywood movies too.

That's cool. I'll have to check it out sometime when I can catch it from home.

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Fan Forum > TV Shows - Past > Everwood > Everwood Fans who are Dawson/Joey & Pacey/Andie Fans of DC #15: Even Kevin Williamson's very own mother hated the ending.