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Old 10-02-2017, 12:37 PM
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Chemistry is subjective, but the show also built up Pacey as the perfect boyfriend, and they even orchestrated a “Heart of a Hero” campaign for him. I think it all came down to Paul Stupin promoting “his” couple (Pacey and Joey) and destroying the previous couples (Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Andie) that were created by Kevin Williamson. Both Dawson and Andie were vilified to facilitate a Pacey and Joey paring, and Andie was eventually written off the show, which I always thought was so wrong and so unfair.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:10 PM
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I think what happens on shows like this is that initially, everyone involved with the show is excited about it and the writing and acting is fresh. In Season One, I was really impressed with Katie Holmes' acting, but in the later seasons, she more relied on "cutesy" mannerisms and mugging for the camera than doing any real acting, especially in her scenes with Pacey. I think that as the series wore on the actors became jaded and they started viewing the show as something that was holding them back. This was particularly true with James Van Der Beek, who requested less screen time in Season Six and I feel his contempt for the show was evident in some of his performances in the later seasons. The thing is though that on shows like this, you often never hear of the stars again once the show ends, and although a few of them have gone on to other shows, most of them peaked with this show, with the exception of Michelle Williams, who's gone on to be an award winning actress. Katie Holmes has achieved a type of fame by becoming Tom Cruise's beard, err, I mean Tom Cruise's wife, but she's mostly tabloid fodder now and she doesn't really act anymore. James has done a few shows, but he'll probably always be known as Dawson, much to his chagrin, and Josh did Fringe, but I think he'll always be known as Pacey in some circles.
So true. Katie changed her acting style from season 1 to season 2. Initially I thought Joey turned less tomboyish once Dawson fell for her romantically but I don't think that was primarily the reason because it increased as the seasons moved along. Quite frankly, during many Pacey/Joey scenes in season 4 I was nauseated not just because I loathe Pacey/Joey, but how Katie played Joey during so many of those scenes. Ick, lol.

I will forever believe James requesting less screentime in season 6 allowed the Pacey/Joey revisit and added fuel for their stupid tacked on ending. I believe if James would have had a full load in season 6 we would have seen Dawson/Joey growing closer and closer and the series finale romantic ending would have fit like a glove.

I believe the network tried to dumb down the character of Jen because Michelle Williams could run circles around Katie in the acting department. The irony is like you said, Michelle was the only one who is an accomplished, serious actress that is known for how amazingly talented she is. The network of course was clueless and didn't care about what they had with Michelle just like they couldn't have cared less what they had with high quality Everwood.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:11 PM
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Chemistry is subjective, but the show also built up Pacey as the perfect boyfriend, and they even orchestrated a “Heart of a Hero” campaign for him.
This is just such a joke all I can do is laugh.

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I think it all came down to Paul Stupin promoting “his” couple (Pacey and Joey) and destroying the previous couples (Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Andie) that were created by Kevin Williamson. Both Dawson and Andie were vilified to facilitate a Pacey and Joey paring, and Andie was eventually written off the show, which I always thought was so wrong and so unfair.
Amen.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:23 PM
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I don't watch the originals. I tried watching the pilot back when it first came on and just wasnt that invested in it. I like Klaus and Elijah but they aren't my favorite TVD characters so I just didnt really care much for the spin off. But I do want to watch the series once I finish my VPD rewatch because I think it will fill the void a bit.

Candice is going to be on the season apparently, there was a filming photo of her with a ring (from stefan) around her neck. But I am not sure how many episodes. I dont think that many and i think I read somewhere that she wasn't looking to date, just be a friend to Klaus.

I'm sure some characters on TVD are mentioned on TO but I dont think that often, its a pretty separate show and I think it had a different timeline for a while too but again, I am not positive because I don't watch it. It'll be interesting to see what sort of SL's happen. I know there was at least one episode where there was a "crossover" of sorts. And I think that Michael (Tyler) guest stared a couple times maybe...
Interesting. So what will they do with Candice's character? Will Caroline mention being in love with Stefan or will they do their best to drop SC all together when she guest stars?

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I think they both decided on it. I think I read they had planned on it being Damon for a while too. They went back and forth with it. But they decided on Stefan because he was the shows "hero" and it made sense for him to try to make amends for all his sins as the ripper. And apparently by Stefan dying, it's forcing Damon to be a better man too because Stefan sacrificed himself for Damon.
Did you think it made sense as a viewer that it turned out the way it did?

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I know that Paul and Ian both wanted their characters to die together and go out in a blaze of glory, which I also would have loved in a way, because ultimately, the show was about the brothers. But my DE heart is very glad that Damon got to live and be with Elena forever lol. Paul really encouraged the writers to kill Stefan, he really wanted that.

A lot of Stefan fans were upset because they felt he was still the better brother and didnt deserve that ending but to me, Stefan was tortured his entire life. He always felt remorse for the things he did and it ate him up. With Damon, I dont think that was the case. Damon was able to accept his nature as a vampire. So Stefan making that sacrifice for everyone and dying was his way of getting that redemption and i think in the afterlife, when he was reunited with his best friend, he was finally at peace. I think it was better for his character. And like I said, eventually Caroline will join him and everything will be peachy. LOL.
LOL! Yes. Well the thing is if Paul wanted this for his character, and he even encouraged Stefan's death, there's not much the showrunner could do about it. When an actor really wants this, of course they could have said no, it didn't work with the storyline they were planning but usually in situations like this, if the actor is even promoting such an ending, they will go with it usually. So it seems everyone was on board.

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Yeah, that was 202 and that was the first time that Stefan/Caroline had a genuine scene together and everyone flipped out and I think thats when people really started to ship them. I of course shipped them after the pilot when Caroline said she was gonna marry Stefan but he rejected her. It was perfect to me. He said it was never gonna happen then he ended up marrying her. I think that was also when the writers said they felt the chemistry and knew they wanted to build a storyline there and in season 2 they became good friends.
Awe, very cool that they essentially got started (if even one sided) back in The Pilot. That's really cool. I love when a story starts off slowly like that and it all eventually ties together. I love slow burn romantic storylines, especially when it's not even mutual... one is crushed/likes, the other doesn't notice and you watch them grew closer.

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I think it also depends on if the show gets renewed. If its the final season then I cant see KC happening. They might hint at it as they have done for a while now. Klaus told Caroline in season 3 that he would be her last love. And in the TVD finale he wrote a finale that said he would wait however long it takes. I do like them together. They have great chemistry and I think Caroline makes Klaus better. But yeah, its really up in the air I guess and down to what the writers want.

I think the majority of TO fans are TVD fans yes, because thats how they were introduced to the characters.
Got it. When do they find out about renewal?

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I think #1 is a BIG one. Even I had a massive crush on Josh when i first started watching the show, but it still couldnt force me into liking PJ. For me, I am drawn to angst and story.
You also have a brain along with common sense and can separate off screen from on screen... Some Josh/Pacey/Joey fans simply cannot go there. lol

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I do tend to like the bad guys, but not always. I wanted DJ. I shipped Jack/Kate. The main theme in most of my ships is BUILD UP. I dont like couples that get together too fast and I don't like couples without substance. And to me, PJ had no build up. They werent even in each others circles in the first few seasons and then randomly started being friends in season 3. I will admit their romantic build up in season 3 was decent but still, it was pretty fast in the grand scheme of things. They could have remained friends in season 3 and waited to go the romantic route in season 4 or something. IDK.

As far as the competition thing goes, that is just mean. I mean, when VPD ended I was in the S/E thread saying I was sorry about the non endgame and that i understood their frustrations seeing that SE were the main pairing for 2 solid years. I still liked SE as a friendship and talked about their final scene together etc. I never gushed about "winning" in the triangle. I was happy to have my endgame but man, people need to be respectful. I remember some people in the KC thread were the same, just bashing Stefan to no end because he and Caroline got married.

Some people just need to chill a bit and realize its just tv. LOL.
LOL Exactly! PJ had zero build up. They were professional fighters basically who went at it over the same thing over and over again (with sex in between) and that's really about it.

I also shipped Jack/Kate, Lucas/Peyton. By the way, we are really having a blast on the OTH thread on the board if you want to check it out. There's some lively discussion going on.

Yes, I can ship bad boys/bad girls too but the writing/storyline has to work. Would you consider Bellamy from The 100 a bad boy or he was one originally? I loved him from day one, faults and all and have adored Clarke/Bellamy from the start as well.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:12 PM
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So true. Katie changed her acting style from season 1 to season 2. Initially I thought Joey turned less tomboyish once Dawson fell for her romantically but I don't think that was primarily the reason because it increased as the seasons moved along. Quite frankly, during many Pacey/Joey scenes in season 4 I was nauseated not just because I loathe Pacey/Joey, but how Katie played Joey during so many of those scenes. Ick, lol.
Katie Holmes was one of the first actresses to become popular through the Internet. The first website that I ever visited and the first message board that I ever posted on was a Katie Holmes website. I also think that the writers and producers really began to favor her after Season One, and the shy tomboy became the IT Girl that no mere mortal could resist. This happened as early as Season Two, where in one episode, they had Katie/Joey pose in all these different costumes, which is something that Season One Joey never would have done. Eventually, the show became the Joey Potter Hour, much to its detriment, and I think that the the adulation went to Katie Holmes' head and she started just playing cutesy on the show.

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I will forever believe James requesting less screentime in season 6 allowed the Pacey/Joey revisit and added fuel for their stupid tacked on ending. I believe if James would have had a full load in season 6 we would have seen Dawson/Joey growing closer and closer and the series finale romantic ending would have fit like a glove.
I'd like to believe that too, Michelle, but with Paul Stupin in charge, I don't know if that would have happened, because he's the one who systematically destroyed Dawson and Joey over the seasons. Even when Kevin Williamson came back and he wanted to write a Dawson and Joey ending for the show, Stupin talked him out of it.

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I believe the network tried to dumb down the character of Jen because Michelle Williams could run circles around Katie in the acting department. The irony is like you said, Michelle was the only one who is an accomplished, serious actress that is known for how amazingly talented she is. The network of course was clueless and didn't care about what they had with Michelle just like they couldn't have cared less what they had with high quality Everwood.
That's so true. The writers and producers adored Katie Holmes and at least one of them said something vile about Michelle Williams, but Michelle had the last laugh as she's an award winning A-List Actress, and Katie is little more than tabloid fodder.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:10 PM
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Katie Holmes was one of the first actresses to become popular through the Internet. The first website that I ever visited and the first message board that I ever posted on was a Katie Holmes website. I also think that the writers and producers really began to favor her after Season One, and the shy tomboy became the IT Girl that no mere mortal could resist. This happened as early as Season Two, where in one episode, they had Katie/Joey pose in all these different costumes, which is something that Season One Joey never would have done. Eventually, the show became the Joey Potter Hour, much to its detriment, and I think that the the adulation went to Katie Holmes' head and she started just playing cutesy on the show.
I remember when the Toledo area went crazy over Katie. I knew some people at the time who went to college right in Toledo and the buzz was all over the place about Katie. She definitely was huge. I personally remember googling away. That was mainly because I was interested in what her hometown was saying but yes, she was everywhere. She was the IT girl, both on and off the screen and the network basically put a halo over her head and from that point forward she could do no wrong.

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I'd like to believe that too, Michelle, but with Paul Stupin in charge, I don't know if that would have happened, because he's the one who systematically destroyed Dawson and Joey over the seasons. Even when Kevin Williamson came back and he wanted to write a Dawson and Joey ending for the show, Stupin talked him out of it.
That's very true. I just don't understand the finales of 4 and 5 were big DJ moments with Stupin in charge, you know? He definitely had them set up for a happy ending should the series have ended after 4 or 5. Maybe once season 6 hit he felt like all the cards fell into place... James asking for less screentime, revisit of PJ (but still weird how they were toast and she picked Eddie) and then he started feeling cocky like he could squeak out his pairing for the happy ending, using guilt with Kevin because he hadn't been around. I truly believe he was going to give DJ the ending should the series have ended after 4 and 5 but something changed in 6. I also think Kevin returning was the reason why he could go there. I remember PJ fans moaning when they found out Kevin was returning to write the series finale. The irony is Kevin returning was the best thing for them... well, if you want to say a tacked on ending that made zero sense was a good thing. I know Berlanti was furious over the ending because he said as much in an interview during early Everwood.

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That's so true. The writers and producers adored Katie Holmes and at least one of them said something vile about Michelle Williams, but Michelle had the last laugh as she's an award winning A-List Actress, and Katie is little more than tabloid fodder.
Exactly.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:01 AM
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Im watching some season 2. Pacey was much more likable andie and joey my faves. DJ and PA
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:09 PM
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That's very true. I just don't understand the finales of 4 and 5 were big DJ moments with Stupin in charge, you know? He definitely had them set up for a happy ending should the series have ended after 4 or 5. Maybe once season 6 hit he felt like all the cards fell into place... James asking for less screentime, revisit of PJ (but still weird how they were toast and she picked Eddie) and then he started feeling cocky like he could squeak out his pairing for the happy ending, using guilt with Kevin because he hadn't been around. I truly believe he was going to give DJ the ending should the series have ended after 4 and 5 but something changed in 6. I also think Kevin returning was the reason why he could go there. I remember PJ fans moaning when they found out Kevin was returning to write the series finale. The irony is Kevin returning was the best thing for them... well, if you want to say a tacked on ending that made zero sense was a good thing. I know Berlanti was furious over the ending because he said as much in an interview during early Everwood.
What Stupin was doing was cynically stringing along the Dawson and Joey fans and giving them false hope so they wouldn't stop watching the show, but I don't think he ever intended to give them their happy ending.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:59 PM
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Im watching some season 2. Pacey was much more likable andie and joey my faves. DJ and PA
I loved season 2 Pacey.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:01 PM
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What Stupin was doing was cynically stringing along the Dawson and Joey fans and giving them false hope so they wouldn't stop watching the show, but I don't think he ever intended to give them their happy ending.
Actually, if this is true I can even feel better about it for as weird as that sounds. I've never seen a more manipulative series starting with the network, both showrunners, writers. They got off on the drama and triangle war, they even embraced the chaos. They also had zero problem taking the show's OTP and destroying without any guilt.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:50 AM
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you assininie immature haha boyfriend. 4.01 joey lying about that brick. I do not tolerate liars and that was one ep I tolerated pj because joey assured pacey she was over dawson.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:02 AM
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you assininie immature haha boyfriend. 4.01 joey lying about that brick. I do not tolerate liars and that was one ep I tolerated pj because joey assured pacey she was over dawson.
She lies to Pacey about her thoughts and feelings during many moments in season 4. That is why if Dawson/Joey never existed and I had Pacey/Joey to evaluate only, I would still have major issues with this pairing. I don't like Joey very much when she's with Pacey. She's not honest with him. Pacey lost all of his spark the second he got together with Joey too. The amazing season 2 Pacey is long gone in season 4. They brought out the worst in each other. That is why when Pacey later tells Joey the simple act of being in love with her was enough I laughed. Huh? He is a miserable mess when he's supposedly in love with Joey.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:11 AM
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She lies to Pacey about her thoughts and feelings during many moments in season 4. That is why if Dawson/Joey never existed and I had Pacey/Joey to evaluate only, I would still have major issues with this pairing. I don't like Joey very much when she's with Pacey. She's not honest with him. Pacey lost all of his spark the second he got together with Joey too. The amazing season 2 Pacey is long gone in season 4. They brought out the worst in each other. That is why when Pacey later tells Joey the simple act of being in love with her was enough I laughed. Huh? He is a miserable mess when he's supposedly in love with Joey.
I know. It was a joke. Andie had opened up Pacey to a whole new world, a world of love with someone his own age, (what a concept, huh? ) and she bolstered his confidence in such a way that he was able, for the first time in his life, to put his “slacker” image behind him, and obtain success, both scholastically, and, more important, as a human being. We had always seen evidence of Pacey’s kindness and intelligence that lay hidden behind his outwardly affable and apathetic exterior, but it was Andie who helped Pacey, and all of us, realize what a truly wonderful human being that he was. Pacey also found the courage to stand up to his father when his father insulted Andie, and Andie’s subsequent phone conversation with Mr. Witter allowed him and Pacey to achieve a true breakthrough in their relationship, and allowed them to interact as a father and son truly should for the first time in their lives.

When Pacey was with Joey, however, all the progress he had made was tossed aside and he barely was able to finish High School and he came very close to flunking out, but Joey was too self-obsessed to see that or to help him, and she even cruelly taunted him about not getting into any colleges at that dinner for prospective Worthington students. Pacey was basically miserable the entire time that he was with Joey, and with Pacey and Joey we got to see a romantic relationship which foundered on Pacey’s insecurities, Joey’s self obsession, and the constant presence of Dawson’s “ghost” in their relationship. We also saw every significant issue which could have affected their relationship conveniently swept under the rug for the obligatory 8:50 make up/make out scene, and we saw their relationship damaged by the lack of open and honest communication between them, and finally destroyed by Joey’s lies, and Pacey’s self loathing, which was a characteristic he never had with Andie.

So to me, Joey ending up being the love of Pacey's life was a complete joke.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:31 AM
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I know. It was a joke. Andie had opened up Pacey to a whole new world, a world of love with someone his own age, (what a concept, huh? ) and she bolstered his confidence in such a way that he was able, for the first time in his life, to put his “slacker” image behind him, and obtain success, both scholastically, and, more important, as a human being. We had always seen evidence of Pacey’s kindness and intelligence that lay hidden behind his outwardly affable and apathetic exterior, but it was Andie who helped Pacey, and all of us, realize what a truly wonderful human being that he was. Pacey also found the courage to stand up to his father when his father insulted Andie, and Andie’s subsequent phone conversation with Mr. Witter allowed him and Pacey to achieve a true breakthrough in their relationship, and allowed them to interact as a father and son truly should for the first time in their lives.

When Pacey was with Joey, however, all the progress he had made was tossed aside and he barely was able to finish High School and he came very close to flunking out, but Joey was too self-obsessed to see that or to help him, and she even cruelly taunted him about not getting into any colleges at that dinner for prospective Worthington students. Pacey was basically miserable the entire time that he was with Joey, and with Pacey and Joey we got to see a romantic relationship which foundered on Pacey’s insecurities, Joey’s self obsession, and the constant presence of Dawson’s “ghost” in their relationship. We also saw every significant issue which could have affected their relationship conveniently swept under the rug for the obligatory 8:50 make up/make out scene, and we saw their relationship damaged by the lack of open and honest communication between them, and finally destroyed by Joey’s lies, and Pacey’s self loathing, which was a characteristic he never had with Andie.

So to me, Joey ending up being the love of Pacey's life was a complete joke.
I am buying the series from amazon. I am going to rewatch again. Nothing is gonna change. Once season 4 hits, ugh. its geting boring. how many fights already? same things?
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:33 AM
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I know. It was a joke. Andie had opened up Pacey to a whole new world, a world of love with someone his own age, (what a concept, huh? ) and she bolstered his confidence in such a way that he was able, for the first time in his life, to put his “slacker” image behind him, and obtain success, both scholastically, and, more important, as a human being. We had always seen evidence of Pacey’s kindness and intelligence that lay hidden behind his outwardly affable and apathetic exterior, but it was Andie who helped Pacey, and all of us, realize what a truly wonderful human being that he was. Pacey also found the courage to stand up to his father when his father insulted Andie, and Andie’s subsequent phone conversation with Mr. Witter allowed him and Pacey to achieve a true breakthrough in their relationship, and allowed them to interact as a father and son truly should for the first time in their lives.

When Pacey was with Joey, however, all the progress he had made was tossed aside and he barely was able to finish High School and he came very close to flunking out, but Joey was too self-obsessed to see that or to help him, and she even cruelly taunted him about not getting into any colleges at that dinner for prospective Worthington students. Pacey was basically miserable the entire time that he was with Joey, and with Pacey and Joey we got to see a romantic relationship which foundered on Pacey’s insecurities, Joey’s self obsession, and the constant presence of Dawson’s “ghost” in their relationship. We also saw every significant issue which could have affected their relationship conveniently swept under the rug for the obligatory 8:50 make up/make out scene, and we saw their relationship damaged by the lack of open and honest communication between them, and finally destroyed by Joey’s lies, and Pacey’s self loathing, which was a characteristic he never had with Andie.

So to me, Joey ending up being the love of Pacey's life was a complete joke.
Brilliant thoughts, Jerry. You perfectly demonstrated how much better Andie was for Pacey. It's not even close, lol. It's an absolute joke everyone cannot see the major differences between Andie and Joey concerning Pacey. Although the Pacey/Joey fans stupidly use Andie's cheating as a reason why in the end, she wasn't good enough for Pacey. They will use Andie's delicate state and mental health against her yet conveniently ignore all of Joey's lies and manipulation throughout season 4 when Joey was emotionally cheating on Pacey while her heart remained with Dawson. Dawson was even rejecting her and Joey still continued to emotionally cheat on Pacey. Stupid (yes, StupiD) conveniently inserted the Andie cheating because he knew it was the only way to break up Pacey/Andie given their strong history and how perfect they were for each other. He had to find a way to destroy them to jump start lame Pacey/Joey. He also essentially made fun of mental health (which makes me despise him) by further trying to destroy Andie when she claimed the rape bit while Joey looked like an angelic figure. Sickening.

Still... Andie so called cheating once while in such a delicate state (even Pacey understood Andie wasn't truly Andie then) while Joey, supposedly healthy mentally, emotionally cheating and lying to Pacey over and over and over again... which one was worse? Joey by a mile but Pacey/Joey fans deny it.
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